Disintegrate would cause major problems if spellstrike worked like Channel Smite. It would be utterly insane.
I don't think it would unless you special-cased it to have that kind of exploitative interaction. The spell is an attack spell, and the save on top of the damage comes after, so it would just work like now.
True strike does kind of warp the game around it a bit. Every big strike has to be looked at with a "what if they use true strike and aid" etc etc.
My point about changing spellstrike to not being so literally dependent on spells is just that, as I pointed out, the game is moving away hard from attack spells. We have the illusion of choice now, and the class is more and more "take a dedication to get a focus spell" to use. And if you spam the same focus spell over and over, is that really choice?
I think the "focus point for damage" thing should be folded into the class so you don't have to archetype for it. Maybe you can use existing conflux stuff for free once a turn (some of them) without a spellstrike recharge.
Have damage and effect options on your spellstrike, it can be amped by a focus point.
Part of why they don't print attack spells is sure strike. Every arcane and occult attack roll spell feels awful for a caster to use without sure strike, but can't be too strong with it, so they all feel extra bad. You still have to account for sure strike getting poached or acquired via class features, as well, so it's not like divine and primal are unaffected.
Unfortunately, another part is magus, since every arcane spell attack has to be balanced against a magus using the spell to spellstrike.
"Spend an action for advantage" is just ungodly strong in a system with DC+/-10 interactions. There's no getting around it. It's easier to just not design spells that interact with it and silo the magus off in their own corner.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The other is more about what the vision for magus is. Is magus a spellstriker who hits hard and maybe occasionally casts another spell? Or is a magus a wizard like character with limited slots that also mixes it up in melee?
Is it really a bad thing that there's room left for the player to answer that question themselves with their build choices?
I concur, magus shouldn't be a one trick pony and you should have room to decide if you wanna be a spellstrike machine with only one spell for it (likely a focus spell) and your few slots to cover fringe cases or some buffs/utility or if you want to be a more flexible battlemage.
Which is *one* reason why I wouldn't be that against losing some power in Spellstrike (for example by removing the compatibility with Focus Spells) to give a bit more flexibility/options elsewhere within the class itself. (more strike options as feats outside of spellstrike to support other way to play it, expanding on Arcane Cascade, etc)
Disintegrate would cause major problems if spellstrike worked like Channel Smite. It would be utterly insane.I don't think it would unless you special-cased it to have that kind of exploitative interaction. The spell is an attack spell, and the save on top of the damage comes after, so it would just work like now.
Channel Smite makes it so you critically fail with no save if you are critically hit by a strike. So in the case of disintegrate, a critical hit would be an automatic critical disintegrate. That would be absolutely brutal.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
True strike does kind of warp the game around it a bit. Every big strike has to be looked at with a "what if they use true strike and aid" etc etc.
My point about changing spellstrike to not being so literally dependent on spells is just that, as I pointed out, the game is moving away hard from attack spells. We have the illusion of choice now, and the class is more and more "take a dedication to get a focus spell" to use. And if you spam the same focus spell over and over, is that really choice?
I think the "focus point for damage" thing should be folded into the class so you don't have to archetype for it. Maybe you can use existing conflux stuff for free once a turn (some of them) without a spellstrike recharge.
Have damage and effect options on your spellstrike, it can be amped by a focus point.
Part of why they don't print attack spells is sure strike. Every arcane and occult attack roll spell feels awful for a caster to use without sure strike, but can't be too strong with it, so they all feel extra bad. You still have to account for sure strike getting poached or acquired via class features, as well, so it's not like divine and primal are unaffected.
Unfortunately, another part is magus, since every arcane spell attack has to be balanced against a magus using the spell to spellstrike.
"Spend an action for advantage" is just ungodly strong in a system with DC+/-10 interactions. There's no getting around it. It's easier to just not design spells that interact with it and silo the magus off in their own corner.
I doubt this is the reasoning. Sure Strike is good, but it's a spell that simulates a hero point.
I'm not sure why people have this obsession with attack roll spells, when AoE save spells are the most powerful in the game and it's not even close.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Channel Smite makes it so you critically fail with no save if you are critically hit by a strike. So in the case of disintegrate, a critical hit would be an automatic critical disintegrate. That would be absolutely brutal.
Channel Smite applies to spells that rely exclusively on a basic save, so it would simply not work with disintegrate to begin with. As for the different model that was discussed, the overlap would apply to the attack roll on disintegrate, and nothing specifies it would merge disintegrate's own attack roll and basic Fort save, so the catastrophic scenario you are imagining doesn't follow from the discussion that's been had, much less is anything anyone else is asking for.
When they eventually look at doing a Pathfinder 3e, I'd straight up be in support of them deleting attack roll spells as a concept and expressing existing ones as saves (or inverting saves into defenses to mirror AC, the load bearing part is the damage on a miss.) Not because of Spellstrike or Sure Strike, just in general.
Wonder how Magus would work then for balance or spell selection then.
Channel Smite makes it so you critically fail with no save if you are critically hit by a strike. So in the case of disintegrate, a critical hit would be an automatic critical disintegrate. That would be absolutely brutal.Channel Smite applies to spells that rely exclusively on a basic save, so it would simply not work with disintegrate to begin with. As for the different model that was discussed, the overlap would apply to the attack roll on disintegrate, and nothing specifies it would merge disintegrate's own attack roll and basic Fort save, so the catastrophic scenario you are imagining doesn't follow from the discussion that's been had, much less is anything anyone else is asking for.
If you make Disintegrate like Channel Smite, then how would it work?
Attack roll spells already work off the magus weapon attack roll. Would disintegrate still get a save or not?
I doubt this is the reasoning. Sure Strike is good, but it's a spell that simulates a hero point.I'm not sure why people have this obsession with attack roll spells, when AoE save spells are the most powerful in the game and it's not even close.
It's better than a hero point because you're getting roll twice and take higher instead of roll once, keep or discard, roll if discard. You're unlikely to hero point a regular hit to critfish, but you can still get a crit on the second roll with sure strike if the first roll would hit. There's a meaningful practical difference in your odds of critting.
I agree sure strike isn't the only reason they don't print more attack spells, though. Some of it, I think, is just that they feel weak in general and they don't have an incentive (or a particularly good method) to fix the system issue over ignoring it and printing more save spells. There's a reason so many attack spells just got reworked into saves in the remaster.
But then why would off-guard, or circumstance bonuses to AC like shields etc not be of any use to defend against it or make it more likely ?Because those have nothing to do with your own precision or technique, those are all circumstances exposing or protecting your target from the attack. The actual technique itself would be represented by your roll here.
Also, NOTHING makes it harder to resist a spell, be eligible or not. The Magus cannot apply their weapon proficiency bonus on that Save DC last time I've checked, or the target getting a penalty.The quote you pulled discusses a suggestion to change the mechanics of Spellstrike, not an existing aspect of the Magus.
Well, that's part of "articulating an issue" :p
If you make Disintegrate like Channel Smite, then how would it work?
Attack roll spells already work off the magus weapon attack roll. Would disintegrate still get a save or not?
Since it's a Fortitude save, I'd say it would do. I mean, you do get a Fortitude save against an injury poison or even a Will save against certain melee attacks.
Like I said, Reflex saves should be way more difficult to do, simply because you "already failed to dodge a melee strike".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But then why would off-guard, or circumstance bonuses to AC like shields etc not be of any use to defend against it or make it more likely ?Because those have nothing to do with your own precision or technique, those are all circumstances exposing or protecting your target from the attack. The actual technique itself would be represented by your roll here.
Also, NOTHING makes it harder to resist a spell, be eligible or not. The Magus cannot apply their weapon proficiency bonus on that Save DC last time I've checked, or the target getting a penalty.The quote you pulled discusses a suggestion to change the mechanics of Spellstrike, not an existing aspect of the Magus.Well, that's part of "articulating an issue" :p
If you make Disintegrate like Channel Smite, then how would it work?
Attack roll spells already work off the magus weapon attack roll. Would disintegrate still get a save or not?
Since it's a Fortitude save, I'd say it would do. I mean, you do get a Fortitude save against an injury poison or even a Will save against certain melee attacks.
Like I said, Reflex saves should be way more difficult to do, simply because you "already failed to dodge a melee strike".
The suggestion was to make Spellestrike work like Channel Smite. Do you understand how Channel Smite works? If you critically hit with channel smite, then it counts as a critical fail for your saving throw automatially.
That's why making Spellstrike work like Channel Smite doesn't work and makes a spell like disintegrate too powerful.
You wrote this response like you don't know how Channel Smite works. There is no save. The critical hit means a critical fail on the save for disintegrate.
So what are you saying as to how Spellstrike working like Channel Smite is ok?
As always, magus' issue is that it needs more and better feats to select from within its class lol.
When I say "issues" ofc I don't mean the class is unplayable or bad
And yeah some studies do need tweaks 'cause they are definitely undertuned, though it's not necesseraly that easy to find an interresting, useful and flavorful conflux spell for all.
Like what could Inexorable Iron have ? The idea of a shockwave AoE while using a big weapon IS cool. But it's also unpractical. Maybe give a choice of line or cone AoE so it's easier to aim ? Maybe make it inflict deafened on a fail since it's sonic damage. Plays into the "anti mage" aspect that magus can embody. Plus a line can give you the reach to compensate for movement.
The tempHP per round is honestly not bad, as long as you're frontlining it's essentially a constant fast healing.
The spellstrike upgrade tho, yeah, it's pretty bad. I'd rather have the potential prone effect be on that, like the target and any ennemy adjacent to it must succeed a fortitude save against your spell DC or be knocked prone. It fits the idea of spellstriking with a big two-hander.
Sparkling Targe honestly i wouldn't change, it's basic but it is extremely reliable. Maybe a feat upgrade to add in a shove with the shield at most.
And again: more options for strikes other than spellstrike upgrades please.
You can but it offers nothing unique to the class itself. There could be more to the gish class than a single magic strike.
It could have a flourish strike that inflicts a penalty to saves against spells for a round on a hit for example, more ways to be a magical warrior and devellop the martial side while still retaining synergy with the overall kit.
Exemplar doesn't need to take an archetype to get more striking options for example.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I mean, in the context of other classes, Magus is absolutely a well realized and rather "full" class with many meaningful choices both in build and in combat. It does suffer a bit with the common problem of the one "frictionless" sub-type being way more appealing, but overall Magus seems pretty damn great.
The ideal flowchart play is obvious from a mile away, but the entire "depth" of the class is how you deal with disruption to that ideal rotation.
The very notion that Expansive SS is not an automatic "must pick" and is instead genuinely debated "to take or not" shows just how close to a bullseye the authors got.
Expansive is action compression that's on par with a once per day L10 feat for other spellcasters, it's ludicrously good on paper. Yet, in the context of the Magus, where they already have base SS and the design of a wave caster makes high R slots precious, that crazy feat is genuinely a lower priority and skipped by many players.
.
I'm repeating myself from however many pages back, but IMO Magus could really benefit from more conflux spell options along the lines of Paizo continuously giving Witches some "good effing food" with new patron packages of ([spell tradition] + [hex cantrip] + [familiar hex ability]).
If I were to edit Magus as opposed to adding, it would be to give Magus some early L feature to add a conflux spell for free. Something like "at L3 pick any L2 or under conflux spell class feat and add it to your PC."
A properly generic and not at-creation bound choice, and one that is future proofed to function with future conflux spells, would go a long way to making *the* flowchart class feel a bit more free. (Without giving one of the most powerful classes even more explosive potential)
Yes the base chassis of Magus is solid and there are good feats and features to choose from.
There is some tho that do feel undercooked or concepts that could be built upon (arcane cascade)
Well, that's part of "articulating an issue" :p
Which issue, specifically?
|
"
A properly generic and not at-creation bound choice, and one that is future proofed to function with future conflux spells, would go a long way to making *the* flowchart class feel a bit more free. (Without giving one of the most powerful classes even more explosive potential)
Yeah I alway dislike when the subclass options are strictly walled off from one another. It's why I like classes like alchemist so much, becaues despite having your research field, you are still able to dabble in other fields if you so choose.
Obviously it's not quite the same thing, but I wouldn't mind some poaching feats for magus at higher levels.
It's funny 'cause magus archetype does have a feat to get a conflux spell from any hybrid study.
Though let's be honest, if it was an option for all magi, everyone would take Dimensional Assault, it is just too useful.
I'd rather improve existing ones that lag behind and give other options for action flexibility, either each study gives a few actions that can recharge on a success (like a successful feint or disarm on laughing shadow, successful shove or trip on inexorable iron, grapple or trip or disarm on unfurling, tumble through on aloof firmament etc etc), maybe under the condition of being in arcane cascade for balance.
And outside of the class itself: more spells compatible with it please. With some interresting effects aside from just damage. I love winter bolt's taking away actions, or fire ray potentially forcing an ennemy to move. It's super cool !
|
|
It's funny 'cause magus archetype does have a feat to get a conflux spell from any hybrid study.
Though let's be honest, if it was an option for all magi, everyone would take Dimensional Assault, it is just too useful.I'd rather improve existing ones that lag behind and give other options for action flexibility, either each study gives a few actions that can recharge on a success (like a successful feint or disarm on laughing shadow, successful shove or trip on inexorable iron, grapple or trip or disarm on unfurling, tumble through on aloof firmament etc etc), maybe under the condition of being in arcane cascade for balance.
And outside of the class itself: more spells compatible with it please. With some interresting effects aside from just damage. I love winter bolt's taking away actions, or fire ray potentially forcing an ennemy to move. It's super cool !
No i'd definetly pick somethi...
No I would just pick dimensional assualt you're right. It's just so cool.
To be honest Bladed Assault was one of the coolest spells to use with a Magus in 1e. Dimensional Assault kind of fills this niche.
Though let's be honest, if it was an option for all magi, everyone would take Dimensional Assault, it is just too useful.
I don't think that's a bad thing per se though-
Dimensional Assault is a legitimately cool spell, and it's kind of a bummer its soft-walled to a very specific fighting style not everyone will want.
I don't mind the idea of thematic subclass packages, but it's always a little frustrating when a certain combat style is tied to a certain focus spell and now you're stuck making a value judgement on those other options.
I can understand that but if it was a feat it'd just be a must have.
It's the most straightforwadly good focus spell that magus has because it answers the issue of moving into position directly. Solving your action economy.
Other hybrid studies focus spells could answer it in other ways, Sparkling Targe does it by letting you raise your shield, strike and recharge, leaving you an action to move into position, maybe even two, and one to do whatever you'd need.
Starlit Span doesn't suffer from the action economy so its focus spell is fine not being as universally useful.
Inexorable Iron is thematically cool but unpractical. Only doing a very useful effect when ennemies crit fail their save (so you need Int with this subclass but not the others) but if you make it work from a normal fail, it becomes even more unpractical to use with other melee partners. (Could have the option of making it a line, or change it into growing your weapon so massive that you make a strike at 15ft of range, increasing with spell rank. Circumventing having to move right away)
More conflux spells within the feats is also cool, as once again: Magus needs more/better feats within its own class. (I should do a full on tier list lol)
I can understand that but if it was a feat it'd just be a must have.
It's the most straightforwadly good focus spell that magus has because it answers the issue of moving into position directly. Solving your action economy.
Other hybrid studies focus spells could answer it in other ways, Sparkling Targe does it by letting you raise your shield, strike and recharge, leaving you an action to move into position, maybe even two, and one to do whatever you'd need.
Starlit Span doesn't suffer from the action economy so its focus spell is fine not being as universally useful.
Inexorable Iron is thematically cool but unpractical. Only doing a very useful effect when ennemies crit fail their save (so you need Int with this subclass but not the others) but if you make it work from a normal fail, it becomes even more unpractical to use with other melee partners. (Could have the option of making it a line, or change it into growing your weapon so massive that you make a strike at 15ft of range, increasing with spell rank. Circumventing having to move right away)More conflux spells within the feats is also cool, as once again: Magus needs more/better feats within its own class. (I should do a full on tier list lol)
What would it do with more conflux spells? You have 3 focus points an encounter at most. Do you want a few high quality spells or a bunch of filler spells that are a waste of space?
I generally use a focus spell to use Runic Impression, maybe a force fang, and likely an amp for a focus spells like Imaginary Weapon or some other focus spell to use with Spellstrike like fire ray.
What would more conflux spells do unless they were equal to other options and I mean truly equal as in exactly matching the damage of available options, which would mean at best new cosmetic conflux spells at best because no one wants to be using inferior conflux spells or use focus points on spells that are no good.
So I would only see new feats with conflux spells as a good thing if they did something to make the feat worth taking.
As I see the magus feats are high impact, small in number feats that don't require more feats to add to the ones no one takes or cares about.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Conflux spells represent the possible shortcuts on the flowchart to re-gain SS charge.
Making sure the Magus has more than one conflux means that their flowchart always has 2 available forks they must deliberate between. Do they want to get a bit more damage via Force Fang, or would it be a better idea to reposition via Dimensional Assault? Etc.
That kind of open question can help the player keep their brain turned on during combat.
It's a big help to the "feel" of playing a Magus while specifically *not* being much of a power boost due to the mechanics of focus points.
If I can modify my own suggestion, it would be for that L3 feature to instead command the selection of said bonus conflux spell during daily prep, as retraining can be a pain in the ass in some APs, and the idea is for the conflux selection itself to remain an open question, as builds can really change as campaigns progress. Being stuck with a shield-specific conflux would really suck if you no longer thought carrying a shield was a good idea, etc.
You have 3 focus points an encounter at most. Do you want a few high quality spells or a bunch of filler spells that are a waste of space?I wouldn't want more damaging conflux spells, but some more utility options would be very good. Look at the options that the Monk gets: there are straightforward damage focus spells like Inner Upheaval and Medusa's Wrath but it also has options for self-healing/condition removal (Harmonize Self), teleportation (Shrink the Span), flight (Wind Jump), aoe blasting (Qi Blast), an extremely powerful defensive buff (Embrace Nothingness), and just going Super Saiyan (Qi Form). Sure, you can only use three in any given combat but being able to pick which ones you're going to use means you have tools to deal with a wide variety of situations and enemy abilities. I'd like the Magus to have a similarly broad array of options to pick between.
My player tried using Medusa's Wrath. Not a great a conflux spell. Mooks die to fast and bosses laugh at the incap. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about: a focus spell that is conceptually cool and you want to use, but you find out is a waste of time.
High level monks use Ki Form. Lower level monks often get more bang for the buck from Inner Upheaval or dip into archetype for a better spell.
Force Fang is the magus's inner upheaval.
If they add feats, I'd rather they just add things that are cosmetically different to create different magus's thematically rather than experiment in completely new focus spells that often end up being inferior to existing options encouraging everyone to ignore them after trying them a few times.
A focus spell has to have real bang for the buck to get used often. I can't count how many times I've had a player take a cool thematic option thinking it is cool to just end up disappointed and often retraining it later. It shows how few options stand out because of the various damage and whatever strange system they have in the background to measure one option versus another.
For example, why is needle of vengeance sustainable and works on every attack while Forbidden thought works on one attack, does less damage, and is done even with an amp. I have tried to use the amped version to land that stun and maybe done it once out of hundreds of tries on bosses. It's not great at all to use on mooks because you want to hit them with AOE. It's really disappointing. The Forbidden Thought amp should be better. A lot of focus spell options should be better.
Well, that's part of "articulating an issue" :pWhich issue, specifically?
I got a few, the first being what you are asking about:
1) Spellstriking with a Save DC is not fun, because there are 2 saves involved instead of just one. The action of "delivering a spell through a weapon" should make it harder for the target to resist the spell effect. After discussion, adding the Magus's weapon proficiency bonus to the spell DC would be a sweeter deal. Failure would still be an option, but there would be lesser chances of success.
2) Recharging Spellstrike takes an action, and there's nothing to speed this up. A feat that allows you to spend a Focus point to recharge Spellstrike instantly, as a free action, would be cool.
3) Arcane Cascade takes an action as well, and again, there's nothing to speed it up, like a feat to automatically activate it after a Spellstrike.
4) Starlit Span is the only Hybrid Study without a base Cascade effect.
I got a few, the first being what you are asking about:
1) Spellstriking with a Save DC is not fun, because there are 2 saves involved instead of just one. The action of "delivering a spell through a weapon" should make it harder for the target to resist the spell effect. After discussion, adding the Magus's weapon proficiency bonus to the spell DC would be a sweeter deal. Failure would still be an option, but there would be lesser chances of success.
I agree that having to make two rolls instead of one isn't as fun. The suggestion that I think you interjected on did not do this, however, and involved comparing the result of your roll to the target's save DC, so you'd use just one roll. The issue is obviously that sure strike makes this way too good, but you'd just roll once in most cases.
2) Recharging Spellstrike takes an action, and there's nothing to speed this up. A feat that allows you to spend a Focus point to recharge Spellstrike instantly, as a free action, would be cool.
I agree with the frustration over recharging Spellstrike. It'd be worth trying out that kind of focus spell, though any sort of free action tends to be deceptively quite powerful, and there's a risk as well to making every subclass play like a Starlit Span Magus.
3) Arcane Cascade takes an action as well, and again, there's nothing to speed it up, like a feat to automatically activate it after a Spellstrike.
I can agree with this as well. Although I dislike the stance, I'd also be fine with having it activate as a reaction or a free action triggered by Casting a Spell or Spellstriking.
4) Starlit Span is the only Hybrid Study without a base Cascade effect.
Indeed, the subclass generally integrates quite poorly with a lot of the Magus's other features and feats, which reinforces its one-note nature. One way to alleviate this could be to better integrate it with Arcane Cascade and other effects so that the Magus can use them from range.
I agree that having to make two rolls instead of one isn't as fun. The suggestion that I think you interjected on did not do this, however, and involved comparing the result of your roll to the target's save DC, so you'd use just one roll. The issue is obviously that sure strike makes this way too good, but you'd just roll once in most cases.
Yeah, it got muddled over time...
In short, if I have Master Weapon Proficiency, I should add "+6" to my spell DC, if applicable.
Sure Strike sounds good, but it's a 1st-Rank spell... and I don't think you can prepare 20 of these.
Yeah, it got muddled over time...
In short, if I have Master Weapon Proficiency, I should add "+6" to my spell DC, if applicable.
Sure Strike sounds good, but it's a 1st-Rank spell... and I don't think you can prepare 20 of these.
I probably wouldn't add modifiers that high to another check or DC, but something like a +1/+2 to your save DC if you hit with your Spellstrike's attack (with perhaps more of a bonus if you crit) would help bridge that gap. I wouldn't mind the Magus using their weapon proficiency at all times when it comes to Spellstriking either.
As for 20 sure strikes, you jest, but you can actually prepare exactly 20 sure strikes by using all of your studious spell slots (+2), preparing a Spellstriker Staff (+9 at 17th level onwards), preparing a 9th-rank slot into it (+9), and getting Fused Staff to let you fuse it with a weapon and Cast Spells from it normally. You may not use literally all of those, and using sure strike as a Magus is actually pretty hard on the action economy, but then that staff also has lots of other spells that are perfect for combining with Spellstrikes in other situations.
You can't actually use Sure Strike while a staff is fused into a weapon, since it's not a spell elligible for spellstrike (though You can just shift a spellstriker staff into a weapon instead and still cast)
On the matter of a focus spell that only recharge spellstrike, I'd like to suggest once again the option of sacrificing your Arcane Cascade to recharge Spellstrike as a free action, the same way a Barbarian can end their Rage to squeeze out some extra damage.
This makes Arcane Cascade more useful overall as an extra "emergency" recharge that you load preemptively on top of its other benefits AND it is an opportunity cost to end it so it isn't a complete no brainer.
It also makes feats like Capture Magic more appealing since getting into Cascade as a reaction instead of an action to recharge a spellstrike afterward can make fights against spellcaster feel pretty good and dynamic.
Arcane Cascade is the thing to expand on to smooth out *some* of the clunk of magus and make it so you don't FIGHT the action economy but PLAY with it instead.
I also aggree that more Conflux Spells to have more options (other than damage) would be nice. Also reminder that Conflux Spells (aka Magus' specific Focus Spells) recharge spellstrike as part of their effect, which no other focus spells you grab from other classes can do.
So some Conflux Spells with additional utilities will always be welcomed in my eyes.
This is true! In which case, you could always pick Twisting Tree, which would allow you to fight with the staff itself.