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2 big complaints I have so far are the following:
The Medium is described as not growing attachments to particular apparitions but then is given a feat that forces you to always attune to a particular spirit. Not mechanically flawed but may confuse players.
The Echo in Lost Moment's vessel spell gives you an extra reaction specifically for Animist or apparition reactions but hardly any exist and the majority that do are limited to once per 10 minutes. As far as I can tell, it's a vessel spell that will be largely ignored by most Animist players unless an errata/change is made.
Yes, thank you! Both of these have been bothering me all day. Seems the description of the Medium was written before they added the clause to their core feat requiring you to always have to attune to one of the same apparitions. It's just weird!
The Echo of Lost Memory is largely dead in the water for that reason. When I read it at first, I went back to see if I missed a reaction built into their chassis and nope. Then looked for feats and saw the same thing as you, and many are high/mid level and situational or limited. So, in the end you give up one action for a very limited reaction that may or may not be relevant.
Another complaint is that it seems you only get 1 focus spell at level 1 now. So it takes a while (or archetyping) to be able to cast two vessel spells in a single battle. I was looking forward to vessel chaining with the Liturgist, but the flexibility has diminished at low levels.
I think there were a number of over-reactions on this class and the result is quite a few small nerfs that are pushing this class down in my opinion. Which is a shame because I was super hyped to play one (though I may have to sleep on all of this and see how I feel in the morning).
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Seems the description of the Medium was written before they added the clause to their core feat requiring you to always have to attune to one of the same apparitions. It's just weird!
Yup, it's pretty much a copy/paste of the Sage's description.
The Echo of Lost Memory is largely dead in the water for that reason. When I read it at first, I went back to see if I missed a reaction built into their chassis and nope. Then looked for feats and saw the same thing as you, and many are high/mid level and situational or limited. So, in the end you give up one action for a very limited reaction that may or may not be relevant.
The only thing I can think of it a level 9+ Medium who has Echo and Witness of Ancient Battles as primaries to set up for a potential of 3 strikes with no MAP but that requires way too much set up IMO.
Another complaint is that it seems you only get 1 focus spell at level 1 now. So it takes a while (or archetyping) to be able to cast two vessel spells in a single battle. I was looking forward to vessel chaining with the Liturgist, but the flexibility has diminished at low levels.
Circle of Spirits seems to help out with this with its "special" paragraph at the end, granting focus points equal to the amount of attuned apparitions.
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Another complaint is that it seems you only get 1 focus spell at level 1 now. So it takes a while (or archetyping) to be able to cast two vessel spells in a single battle. I was looking forward to vessel chaining with the Liturgist, but the flexibility has diminished at low levels.Circle of Spirits seems to help out with this with its "special" paragraph at the end, granting focus points equal to the amount of attuned apparitions.
You're right, I missed the clause on Circle of Spirits. There is very similar wording for Medium, but not until their 9th level Invocation.
Ok, that's one less issue at least. I think I'm partly just bitter about the Darkened Forest Form losing the +1 to attack. It just makes it a worse druid IMO as it needs sustained and the switching forms in the middle of combat rarely is fruitful (you pick a form that is usually best for the battle).
I play tested with Vanguard of Roaring Waters and really, really wanted it to be good, but it was very difficult to get your focus spell working effectively. Did anything change with it from the playtest? Or maybe easier: Does it look like a decent apparition to you? Or is it going to remain incredibly niche for water based adventures only?They increased the movement bonus to +10 ft and you get to stride as part of the action to cast or sustain, so I'd say it's MUCH more usable now.
Thank you and Invictus! It does sound significantly improved. It was so hard to ever use in the play test but it sounds like it will be much easier to use now, assuming you want to move around (which should be the major point of having it).
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I tried asking in the WoI AMA, but might’ve gotten buried…
Any new companions/familiar abilities/specific familiars in WoI?
Was wondering if there’s something new that the Shaman Animist would be interested in (kind of like how RoE introduced new specific familiars and familiar ability alongside Kineticist’s Elemental Familiar, maybe something similar with Animists and Spirit Familiar). Like making your familiar a Celestial/Fiend or something?
No new familiar abilities from what I can tell but there's a 12th level feat that requires the spirit familiar that gives you a reaction to give you concealment, makes your familiar untargetable and creates difficult terrain.
2 big complaints I have so far are the following:
The Medium is described as not growing attachments to particular apparitions but then is given a feat that forces you to always attune to a particular spirit. Not mechanically flawed but may confuse players.
The Echo in Lost Moment's vessel spell gives you an extra reaction specifically for Animist or apparition reactions but hardly any exist and the majority that do are limited to once per 10 minutes. As far as I can tell, it's a vessel spell that will be largely ignored by most Animist players unless an errata/change is made.
Could be something that gets enhanced in the divine mysteries book too may be some stuff that makes that more viable that was already in the pipeline.
The downside though, is your primary apparition IS the familiar, so if it dies, you lose a lot until you get it back the next day.There’s nothing in Shaman practice that actually requires/incentivizes your familiar to be in combat?
Coz if not: Absorb Familiar (and Familiar Satchel) exists! Checkmate Paizo!
I mean, yeah. It is a normal familiar so use it for normal familiar things. Most GMs will even rule they are out of combat if tucked away and don't target them unless you do something to make them viable target in combat, though the Familiar Satchel and Absorb Familiar are also great.
I was just pointing out that it is extra dangerous for them to be in combat, in case anybody was thinking of a witch style of play.
It's on the grid, it's a target.
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It's on the grid, it's a target.The downside though, is your primary apparition IS the familiar, so if it dies, you lose a lot until you get it back the next day.There’s nothing in Shaman practice that actually requires/incentivizes your familiar to be in combat?
Coz if not: Absorb Familiar (and Familiar Satchel) exists! Checkmate Paizo!
I mean, yeah. It is a normal familiar so use it for normal familiar things. Most GMs will even rule they are out of combat if tucked away and don't target them unless you do something to make them viable target in combat, though the Familiar Satchel and Absorb Familiar are also great.
I was just pointing out that it is extra dangerous for them to be in combat, in case anybody was thinking of a witch style of play.
That is the GM's choice and it should be made crystal clear beforehand.
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It's on the grid, it's a target.The downside though, is your primary apparition IS the familiar, so if it dies, you lose a lot until you get it back the next day.There’s nothing in Shaman practice that actually requires/incentivizes your familiar to be in combat?
Coz if not: Absorb Familiar (and Familiar Satchel) exists! Checkmate Paizo!
I mean, yeah. It is a normal familiar so use it for normal familiar things. Most GMs will even rule they are out of combat if tucked away and don't target them unless you do something to make them viable target in combat, though the Familiar Satchel and Absorb Familiar are also great.
I was just pointing out that it is extra dangerous for them to be in combat, in case anybody was thinking of a witch style of play.
Yeah, I typically play it that way as well and so do most GMs I know. However, most, myself included, don't put them on the grid unless the player specifically starts doing something with them in combat. Outside of that, I typically just consider them hanging out inside their coat or under their hat or something and basically protected.
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From my experience making a habit out of killing familiars in combat is mostly just a good way to get players to stop using familiars, and you could just as easily handle that during a session 0 if you want.
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I can understand sometimes a bystander familiar getting caught in an AoE. But, as an example, having the enemy who's fighting for his life against a player party suddenly stop hitting the things that are killing it and focusing his attention on the tiny animal that just sits there and isn't a threat seems kinda... insane (to be polite)?
Exactly. Even if the Familiar is technically in an AoE (such as on the character's person) I won't have the AoE impact them. That is, unless they have made the familiar an active participant in the fight, but that is rare (outside of the Witch).
It's just rude to shut down a familiar, especially when it is primarily for out-of-combat coolness.
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A savage pack of wolves looking for easy prey might target the weak seeming familiar over the heavily armored fighter, but generally genetic bad guy #43 will ignore the pesky cat unless it makes itself a problem in my games.
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I can understand sometimes a bystander familiar getting caught in an AoE. But, as an example, having the enemy who's fighting for his life against a player party suddenly stop hitting the things that are killing it and focusing his attention on the tiny animal that just sits there and isn't a threat seems kinda... insane (to be polite)?Sometimes the enemy both isn't actually fighting for their life and is also a prick. If they're pretty clearly winning and being cruel is in character it's 100% on the table.
Maybe within character, but still a dick move by the GM. This sounds too much like the toxic "that's what my character would do" to me.
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Maybe within character, but still a dick move by the GM. This sounds too much like the toxic "that's what my character would do" to me.I can understand sometimes a bystander familiar getting caught in an AoE. But, as an example, having the enemy who's fighting for his life against a player party suddenly stop hitting the things that are killing it and focusing his attention on the tiny animal that just sits there and isn't a threat seems kinda... insane (to be polite)?Sometimes the enemy both isn't actually fighting for their life and is also a prick. If they're pretty clearly winning and being cruel is in character it's 100% on the table.
I mean, it's like complaining someone destroyed your spellbook when you used Raise Tome to block an attack: you don't have to put your familiar out on the battlefield, as Absorb Familiar, Familiar Satchel, Familiar Tattoo, ect are things, so it's a choice to put it in danger. If you want it for "out-of-combat coolness", only pull it out when there isn't any combat.
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I mean, it's like complaining someone destroyed your spellbook when you used Raise Tome to block an attack: you don't have to put your familiar out on the battlefield, as Absorb Familiar, Familiar Satchel, Familiar Tattoo..., so it's a choice to put it in danger. If you want it for "out-of-combat coolness", only pull it out out of combat.Maybe within character, but still a dick move by the GM. This sounds too much like the toxic "that's what my character would do" to me.I can understand sometimes a bystander familiar getting caught in an AoE. But, as an example, having the enemy who's fighting for his life against a player party suddenly stop hitting the things that are killing it and focusing his attention on the tiny animal that just sits there and isn't a threat seems kinda... insane (to be polite)?Sometimes the enemy both isn't actually fighting for their life and is also a prick. If they're pretty clearly winning and being cruel is in character it's 100% on the table.
...Not really? Raise Tome is a deliberate choice to use the spellbook as a shield, whereas I doubt in the scenario the others are talking about, they're using their Familiars as a living shield...
...Also, does anyone use Raise Tome?
...Not really? Raise Tome is a deliberate choice to use the spellbook as a shield
And it's a deliberate choice to not stow away your familiar when things get dangerous. It doesn't really matter what they are doing with their familiars, it's the fact that they have opted to allow them on the battlefield.
...Also, does anyone use Raise Tome?
Not by itself to block damage. The follow-up upgrade, Shielded Tome, allows fusing with a shield to use its stats so it's viable then.
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Ok, that's one less issue at least. I think I'm partly just bitter about the Darkened Forest Form losing the +1 to attack. It just makes it a worse druid IMO as it needs sustained and the switching forms in the middle of combat rarely is fruitful (you pick a form that is usually best for the battle).
I disagree on Darkened Forest Form being worse that Wild Shape. In my opinion, it's even better. The Druid has to pay 2 actions, nearly shutting down one of their turn, to benefit from Wild Shape when the Animist only needs one. And the Animist can more easily get out of it without paying an action (actually by not paying an action). Also, if you don't Sustain it, it still lasts 2 rounds... for 1 action, that's rather nice.
For me, it's a question of use cases. If you want to Wild Shape during the whole combat then go Druid. If you want to sometimes Wild Shape to handle specific situations but otherwise play as a caster, go Darkened Forest Form.
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Maybe within character, but still a dick move by the GM. This sounds too much like the toxic "that's what my character would do" to me.I can understand sometimes a bystander familiar getting caught in an AoE. But, as an example, having the enemy who's fighting for his life against a player party suddenly stop hitting the things that are killing it and focusing his attention on the tiny animal that just sits there and isn't a threat seems kinda... insane (to be polite)?Sometimes the enemy both isn't actually fighting for their life and is also a prick. If they're pretty clearly winning and being cruel is in character it's 100% on the table.Playing what characters do is literally the point of the game, and if it's on the grid it's a target. Especially if it's been doing magic bullshit.
And this is a pretty good signal that the party is getting their ass kicked and maybe they should consider finding an escape route without killing a PC and also giving them another reason to hate this particular enemy.
Yeah, that is kinda my thought too.
The scenario is that the bad guy is winning the fight. Instead of killing a PC, the enemy kills the familiar.
Which gives the party one more round to do something - either run away or scrape up some sort of win from the situation.
After reading all these things about the Animist, I feel one of my PFS Oracles will finally end up as an Animist. It's so sad to move away from the Oracle class but at least I have a Divine caster with a nice feel.
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After reading all these things about the Animist, I feel one of my PFS Oracles will finally end up as an Animist. It's so sad to move away from the Oracle class but at least I have a Divine caster with a nice feel.
I just started a new campaign yesterday and rolled up an Animist. I can't quite explain why, but it had a very Oracle like feel to it. I played Oracle about a year and a half ago, and yesterday's session gave me flashbacks.
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I am kinda feeling that Liturgist is so good that makes the other subclasses appear bad.
For getting daily wandering skill training, Tome Thaumaturge works. Getting it from the archetype you also need the level 6 feat Implement Initiate.
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The Echo in Lost Moment's vessel spell gives you an extra reaction specifically for Animist or apparition reactions but hardly any exist and the majority that do are limited to once per 10 minutes. As far as I can tell, it's a vessel spell that will be largely ignored by most Animist players unless an errata/change is made.
So here are a list of reactions that I have found so far that would count (I didn't look up every spell so I may have missed some):
Echo of Lost Moments: the Foresight reaction from the Foresight spell
Steward of Stone & Fire: the spell Interposing Earth
Witness of Ancient Battles: Shield Block from the Shield cantrip, Reactive Strikes made while Embodiement of Battle is Active
Feats:
Level 6: Blazing Spirit
Level 12: Apparition Cloud, Shadows Within Shadows, Whispers of Warning
and then my assumption is that spellcasting from your Animist slots have the Animist trait, so whichever reaction spells you prepare from the Divine list would count: Schadenfreude, Blood Vendetta, and Blinding Fury are all there and the ones I usually run with.
Costs you 1 focus point and an action every round for a minute to get an extra reaction for the duration.
I can see a couple of different builds that would get great use out of it. I'm currently running a Witch that spends half her slots on reaction spells -- this would let me do the same thing much more easily.
But I agree this is not a widely useful Vessel spell -- the power level is fine, but it won't do much for you unless you build around it.
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I don't think spells ever class traits from the class that is casting them, just the tradition trait that comes from the class.
2 big complaints I have so far are the following:
The Medium is described as not growing attachments to particular apparitions but then is given a feat that forces you to always attune to a particular spirit. Not mechanically flawed but may confuse players.
The Echo in Lost Moment's vessel spell gives you an extra reaction specifically for Animist or apparition reactions but hardly any exist and the majority that do are limited to once per 10 minutes. As far as I can tell, it's a vessel spell that will be largely ignored by most Animist players unless an errata/change is made.
Definitely wanted to highlight this as well. Medium seems... 3/4 baked. Not sure what direction they intended to go but it's an odd mix of description and mechanics.
Echo in Lost Moment's vessel spell, I think, needs a whole rework and I'll be houseruling it in the meantime. There's just nothing here to make this an attractive primary apparition and it should not have shipped in this state.
The gish spirit (forgot the name) is probably where I'd like battle oracle to go, though I still don't like the idea of getting proficiency from a focus spell one bit. It's very clunky. If there are any issues with that I'm just giving players martial proficiency in a weapon of their choice as long as they have that spirit, which is what I let battle oracles do.
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Kinda wondering how much a Fighter Multiclass could compete with Witness to Ancient Battles in terms of its ability to gish?
I'm considering converting one of my characters (a Sparkling Targe Magus with a Flames Oracle Free Archetype) to Animist in order to kinda streamline it, since it's got a lot of the stuff I wanted from the get-go with much more flexibility in playstyle than Oracle has, but I wanna focus more on Steward of Stone and Fire rather than having Witness to Ancient Battles on all the time (and plus both Crafter in the Vault and Custodian of Gardens and Groves are very thematically appropriate to the character too)!
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I feel embodiment of battle's free Reactive Strike is causing its potential as a ranged damage booster to get overlooked: because the spell eats one of your actions every turn, using it in melee is going to be somewhat difficult, as you'll be less able to move around compared to a melee martial. However, that problem is significantly lessened at range, where you can basically act like a turret much in the same style as a Starlit Span Magus and Sustain + Strike x2 every turn. The spell lets you Strike with the same accuracy as the average martial class at levels 1-4, 7-9, 13-14, and 17-19, with better-than-average-martial accuracy at levels 11-12 and 15-16, all while providing a starting +1 damage bonus that makes quite a big difference on a ranged weapon, plus early access to weapon specialization before any martial. It's not necessarily going to make for the most exciting playstyle, but it means you get to deal competitive damage by ranged martial standards at early levels, before weapon specialization starts to bridge that gap alongside the damage steroids most martials get.
After reading all these things about the Animist, I feel one of my PFS Oracles will finally end up as an Animist. It's so sad to move away from the Oracle class but at least I have a Divine caster with a nice feel.
Would not surprise me if this was by design, what with Divine Mysteries coming out soon.
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I'm abit disappointed with Animist. I like the flavour, but cleric who has slightly more flexibility with their spell list just isn't interesting enough for me. Was expecting something more flavourful and impactful like how Binders were or something.
I wish casting didn't eat up so much of PF2e class budgets so casters could have actual class features.
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So how are you flavoring your apparitions? Personally I've found it as a good excuse to try and play a kind of "polytheist cleric" seeking blessings from multiple gods, and recieving some from gods they DON'T want to follow but can't say no to as they try to steer the character to different ends. Basically a way to be an Oracle with more flexibility.
How about you folks? Let's hear some interesting apparition ideas!
Waay too late for this feedback:
but I don't really understand why the Animist's lore skills don't use wisdom instead of intelligence. It is literally the apparition/spirit that is housing the information, so the same attribute used for connecting to the apparition should be the attribute you use with those lores.
Otherwise, this is my favorite non-wizard class and I can't wait to play one. The class feats for this caster class are absolutely amazing.
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I'm abit disappointed with Animist. I like the flavour, but cleric who has slightly more flexibility with their spell list just isn't interesting enough for me. Was expecting something more flavourful and impactful like how Binders were or something.
I wish casting didn't eat up so much of PF2e class budgets so casters could have actual class features.
Personally, I disagree. For me, the Animist reminds me of the Binder, as well as the preview Medium (as opposed to the released version, which I DID NOT LIKE).
I think you're also overlooking things like the Wandering class feats.
Personally, I disagree. For me, the Animist reminds me of the Binder, as well as the preview Medium (as opposed to the released version, which I DID NOT LIKE).
I think you're also overlooking things like the Wandering class feats.
Wandering feats don't come into play until 6th level and that is going to be just 1 or two small things that might actually make you feel slightly like a binder, rather than much of an impact.
I'm also not seeming to be a fan on the Animist.
Certain base options become worse as you gain levels even though they should scale with you, and other options don't scale very well past when you initially take them. And really, the Apparitions for spellcasting become a strait-jacket for how you want to play, almost as bad as the Wizard curriculums (well, since the Animist is meant to be the Wisdom parallel to the Wizard, I suppose it makes sense they are balanced against a garbage feature), with the only benefits being that you can swap them as you want/need, in a sense. That being said, just because you can flip-flop features as you want doesn't really mean much when they are majorly garbage, or only become solid at certain level intervals, so it feels like it is a "play a certain way at certain levels to win encounters" sort of class; again, not unlike Wizard, but given how bad the Wizard class was received by the masses, both Premaster and Remaster, I don't understand the design decision to retread unfavored ground. To see if they can do a better job at it? Maybe, but I'd rather see Paizo do something new and different, instead of see if they can improve on something old they did by putting a new spin on it and seeing if that works.
Not to mention, why are we giving the Animist all these Lore benefits, when they are absolutely terrible with Lore skills based on the factor that they aren't Intelligence-based? Meanwhile, the actual Intelligence-based classes, have little or nothing to do with a feature that was clearly meant to let Intelligence-based classes shine. And from what I can tell, they don't really do much to interact with the Lore skills option other than limit what sort of feats they can use/take at a given time, which, while they can be super flexible (even more than Fighter bonus feats are), feels quite disappointing.