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I'm a PF1 vet, new to PF2e only coming on board with the Remastered. I'm also big on understanding the why's of game design. So help me understand.
I understand that it's bad game design to present options as choices, when they aren't really choices, but universally there is a correct choice. This is called "illusion of choice" universally, and related to specific choices within the Pathfinder game design has been labeled a "feat tax" when relating to feats.
Help me understand why Quick Bomber from a design perspective isn't a class ability and is behind a feat tax? It seems to me this feat is so essential in 1st-8th levels as an Alchemist that to play during those levels without it severely hinders options for the class in combat to the point of it's a must take.
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The problem is that it's essential to Bombers but not to other Research Fields. So if you make a class feature out of it you help Bombers but not really the other ones and it can feel unfair. If you give it as part of the Bomber Research Field it means that the other Research Field no more have access to it and as such will have hard time using Bombs at all. So, the current situation isn't ideal but at least it works for everyone.
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Another thing to keep in mind is that there is no 'Touch AC' in PF2: Your bombs target the same AC as every other attack, so pumping out a extra attack into the round isn't necessarily a good thing when you take the MAP into account.
First attacks probably have a 50% hit chance on average.
Second attacks probably have a 25% hit chance on average.
Third attacks generally need a natural 20 to succeed.
I think it is less of a concern with the new version of Alchemist. But the original PF2 version of Alchemist did have one trap option - Taking Bomber subclass and Quick Bomber feat and throwing all of your reagents away in the first couple of rounds of the first combat of the day.
I remember a couple of people on the boards here complaining about that one.
Yes, Quick Bomber can help you with the action cost of creating/drawing bombs and throwing them. Usually it is better to use the action savings on something other than throwing more bombs because of the MAP, as noted above.
So for an Alchemist that builds to use bombs in combat a lot, Quick Bomber can be a very useful feat to have. For an Alchemist that uses bombs occasionally or rarely, the feat may not be necessary and there are other feats that would be preferred. So it isn't an illusion of choice or feat tax.
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I play two Alchemists in PFS. The first is a Bomber, and yeah, I have Quick Bomber (although I only took it at L5 through a Halfling Ancestry Feat.)
The second is a Mutagenist, who only just got Dex +2 at 10th level. He's thrown a Bomb maybe once in his entire career.
So, I'm deeply glad it's a Feat, not a Class Feature. I don't need anything in there that says "You should always be throwing Bombs!" No, with the Mutagenist, I prefer ripping things to shreds.
Another thing to keep in mind is that there is no 'Touch AC' in PF2: Your bombs target the same AC as every other attack, so pumping out a extra attack into the round isn't necessarily a good thing when you take the MAP into account.
First attacks probably have a 50% hit chance on average.
Second attacks probably have a 25% hit chance on average.
Third attacks generally need a natural 20 to succeed.
65-40-15 is the average for most martials attacking an enemy of the same level with a moderate AC, actually. The exact numbers vary a lot depending upon character level and what your key attribute is, but 50/25/5 is pessimistic for a bomber.
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I think the specs most likely to want this would be bomber of course and probably toxicologist with maybe chirugeon. For Tox there are quite a few decent poison bombs so can probably get some solid use out of ability to quick make/toss a poison bomb of some sort if they don't have time to poison up some weapons.
I don't see mutagenists wanting quick bombers at all they are up in melee tearing peoples faces off. They also probably go through their own daily alchemical supplies slower than the others if they want a few bombs easy enough to premake them to open a fight with.
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Thanks guys. I think what I was seeing at my table was a Chiurgeon being played as if they were a bomber. I can see the Mutagen and Toxicologist not needing it as a class feature, but perhaps it's a good choice for the Chiurgeon. Nonetheless, I think I understand the design decision to place it as a class feat as opposed to a class ability. Again, thanks
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There is an issue with the Alchemist action economy that does make Quick Bomber too appealing, even for those non-bombers.
When non-Bombers use Quick Alchemy, they must spend 1A to create, then a 2nd A to use the item. There's no getting around that. Quick Bomber is the only thing that does.
The L9 Feature Double Brew allows every Alch to make 2 items in the same action.
If they have Quick Bomber, this enables them to throw a bomb for "free" inside that prior action.
No matter what the 2nd created item is, they can now use it for their 2nd action.
And no matter how little investment the Alch has in bomb-throwing as a specialization, the comparison is clear.
Paizo have buffed Quick Bomber so much, and failed to address the action economy so completely, that the comparison is literally "doing nothing with that action" versus "getting a bomb throw"
Now that every Alchemist can, from L1, create and throw 0 cost acid bombs, I must say that this difference provided by Quick Bomber is rather absurd.
This situation did not exist before, one could genuinely pass on Q-Bomber, especially if they were considering Quick Draw.
Now that all Alchemists essentially must use Quick Alchemy in combat due to VVs, and that Double Brew allows for pseudo-1A activation, but only if paired with a Quick Bomber throw, I think it's safe to say the absurd cost/benefit of Quick Bomber qualifies as a Feat Tax.
They literally added a "forever cantrip" acid bomb to all Alchemists, and Quick Bomber is a flat -1 to the action cost.
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And no matter how little investment the Alch has in bomb-throwing as a specialization, the comparison is clear.
Trip, you are putting way too much value on action compression here.
Yes, you are correct: with Quick Bomber, any Alchemist doing a Double Brew could make a Quick Vial Strike for free.
The question for Strength builds is: Why bother?
Let's take my 10th level Mutagenist as an example. He is now Dex +2. So, you're suggesting that it's worth it to trade my Alchemical Familiar (his original Level 1 Feat) for Quick Bomber.
As Norm is -3 behind where my Bomber was at 10th, the most likely outcome of this free Strike is a simple miss, at 45% (at-level Opponent, High AC, 0 MAP). Overall miss chance, counting critical miss, is 60%. So I've spent my 1st level Feat for the opportunity to do 2 points of Acid Splash, with a chance to do absolutely nothing with a roll of 1-3.
So no, Quick Bomber is not a feat tax. It's great if you're a Bomber... it may even be worth it if you're going Ranged but not using Bombs as your primary attack. For other builds, there are much better things to spend your 1st level Class Feat on.
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They literally added a "forever cantrip" acid bomb to all Alchemists, and Quick Bomber is a flat -1 to the action cost.
Weapon-based Alchemists don't have 2 free hands, it's already quite a thing to have one free hand.
Bestial Mutagen Alchemists have the free hands but will lack both Bomb feats and a good Dexterity. So they will mostly fail for 2-4 points of damage at the cost of a level 1 feat.Quick Bomber is only interesting if you are Dexterity-based with free hands... which means you are certainly using Bombs as your main weapons. So we're back to: Only Bomb users will take Quick Bomber.
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So the worst case scenario about a level 1 feat is that its a free 2-4 damage per round...that's still insanely valuable.
And lets not forget the other level 1 feat tax: Far lobber, which in my opinion is far more egregious, just make bombs 30 feet baseline.
Guys, Quick Bomber is compatible with more than the Quick Vials...
Any turn I want to do a Combine Elixir for 2A to get 2 effects, I still want to use MAP, so that's also a super tempting turn to throw a bomb.
This could be 1-handed for 3A total, burning a VV to get that max R Acid Flask ticking away asap.
I could keep both hands free and throw a max R bomb for effectively 0A w/ Double Brew, giving me time to Sure Strike (which is what I'm doing now that we started Stolen Fate).
Or, this could be tossing a lesser bomb off the belt. In all of those scenarios, Quick Bomber cuts bombs throws from 2A into 1A.
I did not get pushback before the remaster discussing that the blanket and no-tradeoff 2 --> 1 action compression of Q-Bmbr was numerically the most powerful feat in the Alchemist class.
This Quick Bomber appeal holds very true even when I've become far more savvy in how to invest in spells and weapons for my Chiurgeons (all the more so that now I use Witch to get familiar, opening up the L1 Feat). It is plenty good enough to be called a Feat tax.
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This question was already quite the topic before the remaster.
What I am attempting to communicate here is that the way the class has changed in the remaster has only *increased* the benefits and use-cases for Quick Bomber, for all Alchemists.
Yes, I don't think anyone's arguing that it's bad.
But what about alchemists who don't throw bombs? What about them? As was pointed out above, there are quite a few of those, and forcing Quick Bomber on them does nothing to help them.
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Well, it's not really per round. On later rounds, you'll typically want to use your MAP for other Strikes/maneuvers. So realistically, you're doing this once per combat when buffing on round 1, maybe twice if you have another slow turn later on.
You don't use Quick Alchemy during combat for buffs any more. You can maintain 3 10-minute buffs on you. And if you really want that Mistform Elixir just keep one at hand at the start of combat and buff you with one action.
In general, when you use Quick Alchemy during combat it's because you want to heal. So you produce 2 Elixirs of Life and have no place for a Bomb.
So I think people are overvaluing Quick Bomber on non-Bomber Alchemists. There are many builds who will never have the occasion to throw this Bomb.
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For Quick Alchemy to be usable at all the PC needs to keep 1 H free. You are being ridiculous.
I think if you were being honest, you would acknowledge that alchemists who:
* have 1 H free
* invest in Dex
are the overwhelming majority.
This is not some fringe build, the class overwhelmingly incentives those 2 build characteristics.
Now that VVs are a thing, the "no Q-Alch, let's unga bunga w/ a 2-H weapon" splinter of a minority are only going to be even more rare than they were before.
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Paizo just made throwing bombs a core, "every Alchemist, always" feature of the Alchemist class.
I optimized that Stln Ft Chiurgeon for Timber Sentinel via Human --> Multitalented, and I still spent a VV for an Acid Flask in the one fight we had last night. The math will change some when L12 and up runes come online, but I know I will always be occasionally tossing bombs, but only if I can trade a L1 Feat to do so for 1A total. And *especially* if that'll cost 0A via Double Brew.
All Alchemists are temped by this extremely powerful option, stop saying "Alchemists are not forced to throw bombs" like it's a real defense. Bombs are literally the only martial weapons we've got, the design of Alchemist does everything it can to push PCs to throw bombs.
* have 1 H free
* invest in Dex
You need 2 free hands, not one. You are already producing an item.
And the post remaster non-Bomber Alchemist will switch to Str as their attack attribute, the time where the default Chirurgeon was Dex-based are over.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
* have 1 H free
* invest in Dex
You need 2 free hands, not one. You are already producing an item.
And the post remaster Alchemist will switch to Str as their attack attribute, the time where the default Chirurgeon was Dex-based are over.
This willful "narrow nitpick" blinders, thinking you've gotten a debunk, is tiring to respond to.
If you were engaging with this in good faith, you would be aware that the Double Brew combo is *one* especially egregious case. Quick Bomber is still -1A in every scenario in which you were not draw-dodging to put the bomb in your hand.
I previously did that with my SoT PC to see how it would go to skip Q-Bomber. And I later retained to get Q-Bomber via Human's Natural Ambition because it's just that good, even when I'm already getting ~1 0A draw per turn.
All Alchemists are temped by this extremely powerful option, stop saying "Alchemists are forced to throw bombs" like it's a real defense. Bombs are literally the only martial weapons we've got, the design of Alchemist does everything it can to push PCs to throw bombs.
No, obviously no, there's no more place for Bomb in the Alchemist class unless you're a Bomber.
Chirurgeons want:
- Item Delivery Familiar
- Shoothing Vials
- Clotting Elixirs
- Invigorating Elixirs
- Combine Elixirs
- Improved Invigorating Elixirs
- Supreme Invigorating Elixirs.
Bombs ask for tons of feat the Chirurgeon doesn't have. Worse, Bombs asks for tons of Versatile Vials the Chirurgeon doesn't have because they use them for Elixirs of Life.
The new default combat ability of the Alchemist is Bestial Mutagen. On general feat for heavy armor, one level 8 feat for Mutant Physique and you're set.
Bombs are only for Bombers, the other Research Fields ignore them now.
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You cant just declare a build like it's some kind of canon. At least you didn't put Healing Bomb in that list.
The only bomb Feat I've taken is Quick Bomber. And L1s are as cheap as it gets for Class Feats.
No, obviously no, there's no more place for Bomb in the Alchemist class unless you're a Bomber.
If Paizo agreed with that nonsense, then they would not have made QV bombs a core feature of every single Alchemist, no matter the Research Field. And weapon proficiency in bombs would limited to a feature of the Bomber type. Your are as flat close to wrong on this "only Bombers bomb" take as you can be.
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The Invigorating Elixir Feat line is imo a very poor deal when you are talking about a class that can poof your Focus Cathartics, Contagion Metabolizers, etc, in a moment's notice.
Seriously, 3 class Feats for that is a joke. They did not learn much from the old Alch's "one mutagen gets 1 more effect when you drink it" Feats, because damn, that does not compete with the magic number 3 which is a Dedication + lockout break Feats.
My current (FA) L11 Chi has Clotting because the other L2 options are bad (though I think I might retrain into Improvise Admixture), and has taken the L6 Combine Elixir.
And oh, look, action compression in a Feat is a standout must-take. No surprise there.
And again, like all Alchemists with innate Alchemical Crafting, I am heavily motivated to carry lower R bombs on my belt.
Once you get caught out with no Ghost Charges to splash positive dmg even on miss (or you're extra savvy and hang that adjacent to some coagulated some for persistent), you'll never leave base without them.
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Mutagens are all about flexibility, and imo the new champion in the age of VVs is the Drakeheart. If you keep the 10-min effect of a Drakeheart active before a fight, you get a bonus to initiative/perception, can choose to burn it away for the double-Stride and make room for a new mutagen buff, or you can judge that it'll match fine and keep it up the whole combat.
Energy Mutagen for similar reasons (only once you can breath it out), but being incompatible with unarmed strikes is dumb, and the weakness can really hurt.
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The Invigorating Elixir Feat line is imo a very poor deal when you are talking about a class that can poof your Focus Cathartic et all in a moment's notice.
The Invigorating Elixir counteracts the effect imposing the Condition, so it counteract spells, remove Poisons and such, the Focus Cathartic only removes the Condition. Focus Cathartic has a ridiculous counteract check that never works. Focus Cathartic is close to unplayable, Invigorating Elixir is a lifesaver.
My current (FA) L11 Chi has Clotting because the other L2 options are bad (though I think I might retrain into Improvise Admixture), and the L6 Combine Elixir.
If the only reason you have a second Chirurgeon feat is "the other L2 options are bad" then I question why you call that a Chirurgeon at all. Pre remaster, Chirurgeon's feats were bad. But now, they are just gorgeous. There's no more reason to spend most of your feats outside the Alchemist class.
You have a preremaster Chirurgeon build. I got one, very close to yours: Bombs as main weapon and not much Chirurgeon stuff besides the Research Field. But the remaster really changed that.
If you can't see the benefit of the new Chirurgeon feats, well, fine. But I know a lot of people do. And these won't have any place for Bombs. Bombs are too costly, both in feats and in Versatile Vials. Chirurgeons don't have much space for them. Going for Bestial Mutagen may seem a bit weird as of now because we're not used to it. But it complements Chirurgeon so well I'm sure people will adjust.
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Dude, the *less* a Chi invests in weapons and offense, the *more* appeal bombs have as offensive tools.
And bombs are more than just offense, they are amazing utility/debuff tools. Glue, Skunk, Pressure, and the dreaded Blindpepper are all things you can daily prep to get scaling DC.
The Invigorating feat line is one that requires a foe to use the matching ability, for your ally to be affected by it, and for the combat cost of attempting to cleanse it to be worth *more* than something else like offense/debuffing. Such "loose less" type strategies are notoriously problematic once they leave the whiteboard.
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My biggest issue post-remaster is the small quantity of Alch items I can make use of. I have literally not yet popped an Elixir of Life with any post-remaster Chirurgeon due to this, when they used to be almost a filler thing.
Instead of trying to stretch out my VVs with niche effects, I'd rather dump the few I do have quickly, via turn 1 Acids and Combines, and then use alternatives like spells, strikes, and even an impulse. And this has been very effective. There are *more* than enough low R evergreen spells for that to be fun and effective. Albatross Curse was a standout last night, and one I think I can count on for a long time.
Dude, the *less* a Chi invests in weapons and offense, the *more* appeal bombs have as offensive tools.
You're telling me that the combat option with half a dozen feats considered tax feats is the more appealing one to those who don't want to invest too much in offense?
You're telling me that the combat option with half a dozen feats considered tax feats is the more appealing one to those who don't want to invest too much in offense?Dude, the *less* a Chi invests in weapons and offense, the *more* appeal bombs have as offensive tools.
The better a Chi's (or any PC's) weapon Strikes, the worse a 1A bomb throw will compare against it. A Chi that has a lot of support feats (meaning few offensive feats) will often find that spending their MAP 0 on a bomb throw, even on pure offense like a _d6 persistent acid, is a better option compared against what few non-bomb attack options they do posses. Or the comparison versus a superfluous 1A support option like Guidance.
Dropping from 2A to 1A is a big deal in the 3A economy.
And shock surprise, doing 3d6 persistent damage is actually really good. The main catch being that it's not viable as a standard attack because it doesn't stack, there is the need to cycle targets/ persistent types. Perfect for a support-first Chirurgeon to throw-and-forget.
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If you think throwing a Skunk bomb for 1A is a bad deal just because you're not adding 2x INT damage on top of the amazing sick/slow effect, I don't know what to tell you.
Blindpepper bombs don't even do damage, so you cannot pretend they are only a tool for the exalted Bomber specialist.
As tight as my budget is, I'm daily prepping (1 or 2) bombs now because they get scaling DC. Again, the remaster has only incentivized / added more reasons for Chirurgeons to use bombs, not fewer.
Whether you think Quick Bomber meets the personal threshold for being called a "Feat Tax" is an opinion, but I am staunchly committed to saying that the changes made by the remaster objectively make Quick Bomber more appealing than before. Including for Chirurgeons with 0 other bomb feats.
If you don't understand a post it's better to ask rather than launch (yet another) erroneous tirade.
Using a simple one-handed weapon, which a TON of builds do, makes Quick bomber (for non bombers) 100% useless as a feat.
[...]
Learn to read.
You are the one that is refusing to comprehend that Quick Bomber is not just for the Double Brew combo.
I repeat myself; Quick Bomber subtracts an action cost from any use of bomb that's not a Draw-dodge.
Stop pretending the one 2-H combo w/ Double Brew to get a 0A bomb strike was the entire point my comment; that was a single example of how the remaster made bombs, and Quick Bomber, even more appealing than before.
1 open hand & Dex investment are rather needed for bombs to be useful, and that is the vast majority of Alchemists. I cannot, nor have any intention of pretending that a 2-H simple weapon smasher is impossible. However, I can say that such a build would be a tiny minority, and that the build is antithetical to the class design due to Q-Alchemy requiring a hand.
The better a Chi's (or any PC's) weapon Strikes, the worse a 1A bomb throw will compare against it.
Well, that's the assertion I disagree with.
With a Bestial Mutagen you will deal 50% more damage than Bombs. And without using any of your Alchemical Items from Advanced Alchemy nor your Versatile Vials (these one, you really need them as a Chirurgeon). Actually, with your 9 items from Advanced Alchemy, you won't get very far if you don't use your Versatile Vials, which you want for Chirurgeon's stuff.
So, no, it's massively better. And more importantly: It works as is. You don't need to jump through hoops to make it work. You don't need to negatively impact your main specialty to make it work.
The better a Chi's (or any PC's) weapon Strikes, the worse a 1A bomb throw will compare against it.Well, that's the assertion I disagree with.
With a Bestial Mutagen you will deal 50% more damage than Bombs. And without using any of your Alchemical Items from Advanced Alchemy nor your Versatile Vials (these one, you really need them as a Chirurgeon). Actually, with your 9 items from Advanced Alchemy, you won't get very far if you don't use your Versatile Vials, which you want for Chirurgeon's stuff.
So, no, it's massively better. And more importantly: It works as is. You don't need to jump through hoops to make it work. You don't need to negatively impact your main specialty to make it work.
???
Firstly, what you are disagreeing with is just math. The lesser the competition, the better the comparison. That's all my statement is saying.
Secondly, I have no idea how you are saying that Bestial has 50% more damage than "Bombs". Even Bestial versus Acid Flask is rather apples to oranges.
Especially considering how diverse bombs are; there are Skunks or other debuff and action-stealing bombs. Your claim is saying there's a flat +50% answer, when in reality you're comparing that apple against a whole mess of different fruits.
Bestial is a mutagen that tanks your Reflex save, occupies your one mutagen slot, gives you +1 over normal to-hit, increases dmg die size with tier, and offers both normal and agile strike options. It's a great tool, but it's not something you can slap down next to a sword and really come away with a "better" determination.
I personally chose to graft some slashing claws on that PCs feet (so I can use whatever mutagen I want, Bestial included), and I do consider unarmed strikes a great option for Chirurgeons.
However, I hope you are still assuming runed-up Handwraps are helping those Bestial strikes.
Without runes, it actually is kinda hard for those strikes to beat 1A persistent damage bombs. Especially due to how much a pain in the ass melee reach is for Chirurgeons, who really want to have reach on their allies (can't easily reach flanking buddy).
Firstly, what you are disagreeing with is just math. The lesser the competition, the better the comparison. That's all my statement is saying.
The thing I disagree with the most is the availability of Bombs.
If you use Advanced Alchemy you have 8-9 of them. So you last 4 rounds, not even 2 fights.If you use Versatile Vials then you can no more use them for Chirurgeon stuff.
So Bombs are mostly not usable on a Chirurgeon.
I never said anything about a 2-H, stop imagining scenarios that don't exist just to try to justify your narrative.
On a 1-H build, Quick Bomber is uselss because, and I want you to carefully read and comprehend the next sentence:
A Strike with a weapon already in hand COSTS THE SAME AMOUNT OF ACTIONS as "making+throwing a bomb" WITH Quick bomber.
And a Weapon strike will do MORE damage even when you are Dex based.
It will do significantly more damage when you are Str based.Again:
When you ONLY have 1 hand available, "making+throwing" a bomb with Quick Bomber is the same exact action cost as simply making a Strike with your weapon.
That's actually not a reasonable assumption to say weapons will do more damage, at all. Only in the most general, blank slate, "runed weapon vs standard bomb" sense can you say that.
Alchemists are limited to simple weapons. That alone is a huge pain in the ass (because the General Feat does not scale the prof and assumes you're a caster).
The more you invest into weapon Strikes, yes, the worse the bombs will compare. Even then, bombs are still very, very useful. More than useful enough for a L1 feat.
I'm personally someone who's exploited the max of Alch's options with things like i.poison + spellheart + siphon attached to melee weapons w/ the thrown trait. Deliberated which Dedication to take, etc.
Even on that Quick Draw thrower PC, I still have bombs on their belt. If all you care about is damage, it is genuinely hard to beat persistent dmg. And as there is more to offense/combat than just doing damage, bombs have appeal beyond that.
Firstly, what you are disagreeing with is just math. The lesser the competition, the better the comparison. That's all my statement is saying.The thing I disagree with the most is the availability of Bombs.
If you use Advanced Alchemy you have 8-9 of them. So you last 4 rounds, not even 2 fights.
If you use Versatile Vials then you can no more use them for Chirurgeon stuff.
So Bombs are mostly not usable on a Chirurgeon.
FFS, that's a completely different argument (and one I fully support/agree with).
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It is yet to be determined, but I am going to see how throwing R2 bombs (via gp) when R3 bombs are available shakes out in the long term.
The on-hit effects may be worth loosing 1/3 of the damage, hard to say. Even for pure damage, the R2 Acid Flasks still compares rather well versus weapon strikes.
I have a Witch "synergy" I'm eager to see that'll come online at L12 where I just need 1 slashing damage (throwing R1 blood bombs at MAP 5) to keep free-sustaining Blood in the Water, but that's not a thing to praise bombs for.
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FFS, that's a completely different argument (and one I fully support/agree with).
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It is yet to be determined, but I am going to see how throwing R2 bombs (via gp) when R3 bombs are available shakes out in the long term.
The on-hit effects may be worth loosing 1/3 of the damage, hard to say. Even for pure damage, the R2 Acid Flasks still compares rather well versus weapon strikes.
I have a Witch "synergy" I'm eager to see that'll come online at L12 where I just need 1 slashing damage (throwing R1 blood bombs at MAP 5) to keep free-sustaining Blood in the Water, but that's not a thing to praise bombs for.
In terms of damage, Bombs without supporting feats will deal very low damage.
You have access to some debuffs and persistent damage and all of that. But you need to have the proper bomb at the proper time, considering that for some Bombs you'll need your DCs so you won't have as many as you want.Overall, you will jump through many hoops to make it work. And all of that for what?
From my point of view, it's not worth it. Going Bestial Mutagen will give you very decent damage output without all the headache you get through. And it works very well with Chirurgeon because you are already on the frontline (and you will sometimes need to heal yourself, which is handy).
Since the remaster and with the massive buff to Bestial Mutagen, in my opinion it has replaced Bombs as the go-to offensive option for Alchemist. I've played with Bombs, quite a lot (my first character) and they didn't met my expectations (with the proper feats, not naked Bombs). As a matter of fact, my Chirurgeon with Bombs as main offensive option is in retirement: I don't feel to jump through that many hoops to make it just ok.
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When you ONLY have 1 hand available, "making+throwing" a bomb with Quick Bomber is the same exact action cost as simply making a Strike with your weapon, and it'll deal less damage.
That's like saying "when you have no hands kicking is better than punching"
Ignoring 2 of your strongest action economy savers in the class with the most action economy problems so you can do less damage than any other martial character is not something to be so smug about...
If you are a weapon user you will invest in your weapon (and you will have a martial weapon one weapon or another in the vast majority of cases, level 1 ancestry feats aren't that hard to get...)
Yeah, they actually kind of are. As I mentioned, the normal martial weapon access options don't scale correctly, not even the Fighter Dedication.
For most Alchemists, they will need to spend 2 Ancestry Feats to gain prof in a single martial weapon in a very small list, and as Alchs want(need) 1H, that's an even smaller list that's not really super good, mostly looks like 1d6 options with some bonus traits, and a few d8s. Super hard to justify over the 0 cost simple, throwable, spear. Or going unarmed via Bestial, which gets 1d8 bites at level 3. Or going outside Alchemist for Archetyping, such as getting Clawdancer d8 kicks as soon as you invest in the Dedication feat.
While 11-20 APs have more room, and more time for property damage runes to make a difference, 1-11 APs, which are the default, really make it hard to justify saying that an Alchemist will "do more damage with weapons." Even for non-Bombers who only take Quick Bomber, that is *not* easy to pull off, and will invariably involve a whole lot of "not Alchemist" options.
I can stack the prior mentioned gold-based enhancements (i.poison + siphon + spellheart) that are not bomb-compatible to get more dmg than them, but the hoops I have to jump through only to occasionally get there just proves the general rule that Alchemists really don't gain damage from going bombless.
The main catch for non-Bombers using bombs has always been, as Bidi has said, not that the damage is substantially lower, but that bombs are consumable and finite Strikes.
Instead, Alchemists going bombless gain resources to use for other items. Which is a big deal, but we've got to keep the discussion honest.
I honestly do want to know if there's some tool I'm missing to enable Alchemist to make better use of weapon Strikes, because I just do not see it.
Everything seems to cost a number of Feats, and once you reach the point that you're dipping into an Archetype or adopting another ancestry to poach a weapon prof, you are well outside of the "Alchemist."
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While 11-20 APs have more room, and more time for property damage runes to make a difference, 1-11 APs, which are the default, really make it hard to justify saying that an Alchemist will "do more damage with weapons."
You are moving the (late) conversation. This conversation started with the interaction of Quick Bomber and Double Brew, so level 9+.
Before Double Brew, there's no conversation: You don't get a free Bomb throw when you use Quick Alchemy to produce another item. So there's nothing to say but that Alchemists who don't use Bombs won't have any use of Quick Bomber.
I can stack the prior mentioned gold-based enhancements (i.poison + siphon + spellheart) that are not bomb-compatible to get more dmg than them, but the hoops I have to jump through only to occasionally get there just proves the general rule that Alchemists really don't gain damage from going bombless.
From experience, it is wrong. You really get much more damage by being bombless. Maybe not more damage than a dedicated Bomber with all the feats but vastly more damage than an Alchemist who uses Bombs without any supporting feats.
There are 3 builds that really dwarves Bombs without supporting feats:
- Bestial Mutagen: The easiest one. The damage is really good and there are no massive drawbacks to this playstyle. It's straightforward and works for anything but Toxicologist.
- Dual-Weapon Alchemist: The goal is to stack as many damage bonuses as possible. Weapon Siphon + Energy Mutagen + Poison (in general Toxicologist so you add also Pernicious Poisons and such). Can be played Str or Dex based (Goblin Dogslicers are in general the weapon of choice for this build).
- Reach Alchemist: Titanic Fury Cocktail + Reflexive Strike from Fighter Dedication. This one, I play it, is just gorgeous. You deal Fighter level of damage thanks to the number of AoOs you trigger. It's paper made but the reach allows you to stay out of harm.
Bow and thrown weapon builds were not in a good state before the remaster (on that I know I disagree with Shroudb) but post remaster it's even worse. The old ranged Toxicologist is dead in my opinion.
Obviously, there may be other builds I haven't thought about, it's not as if I know all of them. Bombs stay an obvious offensive option for an Alchemist but there are much more choices than just that and, even if many asks for quite some system mastery, Bestial Mutagen is as obvious as Bombs for an offensive choice.
My Mutagenist, who uses Bestial, uses a shield... a Martyr's Shield to be exact, that he upgraded to the equivalent of a Moderate Sturdy Shield when he hit L10.
However, for the sake of discussion, let's say he didn't use a Shield.
Now, it's true, Norm will usually do a Combine Elixirs Quick Alchemy on Round one. That's because I like Moderate Numbing Tonic a lot, and with Combine I can add in a Moderate Soothing Tonic as well. So yes, Quick Alchemy on Round one.
So, with Quick Bomber, I could also throw a Quick Vial Bomb.
At most, I'm doing an average of 9 pts of Acid damage with that free Strike, unless I get really lucky and Nat 20 it for an average of 16. Most often, I will do 2 points of Splash damage only. The chance of doing nothing is around 15% (1-3 on the die.)
So how is this worth it for my Build? I'm much better off with a Familiar and getting an extra Item per day with Extra Alchemy, and maybe a delivery system with Item Delivery. Or maybe just an extra Quick Vial when I really need one.
So how is this worth it for my Build?
Could be worth it as a ranged option as a shield limits ranged weapon options and it'd offer a one handed, effectively reload 0 option. Depends on how often you expect to meet things that aren't in reach like flying foes. A strike that has a lower chance to hit and does less than your melee attack is still better then twiddling your thumbs or pulling out an off thrown weapon IMO.
Right, and when you make those elixirs or some short term buff like soothing/numbing/mistform combo on round 1 (obviously using Combine) and have no enemy in reach, you get a free vial throw with it.
And a remaining action you don't know how to use. Isn't it better to produce and imbibe all 3 Elixirs?
Also, you can just have both Elixirs at hand. It costs 2 actions to Imbibe them, as much as your Combine Elixir example, but you don't use your Versatile Vials: You have only 6/7 of them considering that you certainly have 2/3 used as you maintain 2/3 Mutagens/Poisons. So using Quick Alchemy to boost yourself uses half of your Versatile Vials... that's costly.
I don't think this whole Quick Bomber thing is worth the headache. It's rather weak and there are opportunity costs so it's far from a no-brainer.
So how is this worth it for my Build?Could be worth it as a ranged option as a shield limits ranged weapon options and it'd offer a one handed, effectively reload 0 option. Depends on how often you expect to meet things that aren't in reach like flying foes. A strike that has a lower chance to hit and does less than your melee attack is still better then twiddling your thumbs or pulling out an off thrown weapon IMO.
I would reply that in such a circumstance I'm better off just eating the Action cost and using two Actions to throw the Bomb. Because with my already poor Build for throwing Bombs (low Dex, no Quicksilver, no Bomb Feats) there's really no point in my throwing two Quick Vials in a round. (Critical Miss chance would go up to around 40%.)
I would reply that in such a circumstance I'm better off just eating the Action cost and using two Actions to throw the Bomb. Because with my already poor Build for throwing Bombs (low Dex, no Quicksilver, no Bomb Feats) there's really no point in my throwing two Quick Vials in a round. (Critical Miss chance would go up to around 40%.)
My reply/retort would be that with the limited range of Bombs [20' increment], being able to move to lower range increments if needed and still be able to raise a shield would have value especially when you're already starting off with a lesser chance to hit. Multiple attacks aren't the only reason 1 action attacks are helpful: moving to cover, move to lower increments, take a different mutagen [like Quicksilver] instead of the one in your Collar of the Shifting Spider one, take a buff elixir, ect. The one hand, one action attack opens up the other 2 actions for a lot of other things that a 2 action one doesn't [at least not in the same round].
Again, that might not be enough value for you to take it over what you already have, but it isn't nothing.