Resistance in the ranged meta


Playtest General Discussion


So I was looking at one of the playtest feedback and they mentioned having a couple of parties struggling with enemies with resistance at low level.

Now in mostly melee meta of pathfinder 2e a skeleton having resist 5 to a lot of things apart from bludgeoning is fine even a d6 weapon with a +4 bonus from strength is going to do some damage on average and you can always punch for your D4+strength to bypass the reduction.

Now for an entire ranged party overcoming that resistance will be much harder apart from the 3 or 4 weapons doing acid and sonic damage every other ranged weapon would have a skeletons resistance apply to it and even a relatively heavy weapon such as a vector cannon only does .5 damage on average past that resistance. So fights against low level enemies with resistance are going to go a crawling pace as parties struggle to do meaningful damage.

Now I am not sure if there is a meaningful solution apart from perhaps making sure starfinder monsters at level 1 have 2/3 resistance rather than 5.

Dataphiles

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This will be an issue with compatibility going forward. Corpse Fleet Officers (and skeletons as part of a corpse fleet) are something you could reasonably fight at low level. Umbral Echoes, a weakened version of the Shadow, are in A Cosmic Birthday. Both have resist 5 to many forms of damage.

For the Soldier, it’s really quite bad. Their only real option is the Screamer, an advanced weapon, against skeletons. They don’t get to combine PT/AF damage like Flurry of Blows.

The Solarian gets stung by resist because their bonus damage from Photon is fire, so they’re hitting for d8-1.

But I also think this is part of a much larger issue with low level ranged damage, and should be solved by adding a general flat bonus to ranger damage for starfinder.


What's becoming apparent is that the much lower damage floor of ranged weapons means it's quite easy to have your damage reduced to 0 with 2e's resistances, even with level-appropriate enemies. A few classes sort of mitigate this, chiefly the Envoy with Get 'Em!'s flat damage bonus and the Solarian with their melee attacks, but in general rolling low against a resistant enemy is going to reduce your damage to a much smaller fraction of what you'd otherwise get with a melee attack.

Just within Starfinder, I think this ought to be a signal to lower the resistances of enemies, just as I think they should also have their HP lowered overall. The listed minimum resistances per level should probably be the default, and there could probably be an even lower minimum in Starfinder that could correspond to roughly one-third of the creature's level. Creatures should never have the listed maximum resistance to anything, and if they're meant to negate that damage they ought to be immune instead. More broadly, I feel the developers should be more careful with resistances in Starfinder, as they shut down ranged attacks quite easily, but could probably play more with weaknesses, which add a comparatively far meatier bonus to damage.

As for including Pathfinder monsters, that's almost certainly going to be a compatibility problem as Exocist mentions, and I'm unfortunately not quite sure what could be done to mitigate that, besides cheap access to mechanics that let you reduce or ignore resistances. One thing that did help in my playtests was the inclusion of a new universal action that provided a flat damage bonus, which I'll list here:

  • Spot: As a single action, you help a willing adjacent ally's shot find its mark against a designated target you're observing. Until the start of your next turn, the ally's next ranged attack against the target gains a circumstance bonus to damage equal to half your level (minimum 1). A target benefiting from greater cover against the attack has the benefits of standard cover against it instead, and a target benefiting from standard cover has the benefits of lesser cover instead. This action has the auditory trait if you guide your ally with advice, the visual trait if you point to the target, or the manipulate trait if you use an appendage to guide your ally's attack.

    The intent was to mitigate entrenchment in cover and incentivize units to clump together, which it did, but in this particular case the flat damage bonus should also help raise the damage floor of some ranged Strikes, and allow them to more easily go through resistances. The bonus doesn't start out massive, but it's better than nothing, and I'd encourage trying it out.

  • Silver Crusade

    Magic and melee are certainly still options, and personally, I am not so sure the ranged meta will work out like that. I see a lot of references to the take-cover action and I doubt players or NPCs will be super keen to embrace that.

    Personally, I think that giving enemies plenty of nasty melee abilities will give players plenty of reason to delay entering into melee, but of course, not every fight will be the same.

    Especially at lower levels, it seems viable to have a backup weapon and cover different damage types.


    The problem is not backup weapon it's the sheer amount of MADness one requires. It's basically do you want melee beyond D6 then you better have STR but if you have STR you probably won't have high DEX if you're class does not support either I.E a Operative or Solarian. Then you will have lower CON so less Hit Points so melee enemies can knock you down faster. If Finesse weaposn added 1/2 Dex to damage it would not be as bad but still would not solve the issue fully.


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    Thinking about it, how's this for a set of helpful changes:

  • There'd be 2nd-level versions of upgrades that currently replicate bonus damage property runes, namely entropic destabilizer, flaming, frost, and shock. Instead of their current effects, each upgrade lets you Interact with your weapon to change its damage type to the one offered by the upgrade (void for entropic destabilizer, fire for flaming, cold for frost, and electricity for shock), or back to its original damage type. Price these at, say, 200 credits each.
  • Keep the current damage type upgrades, but remove their bonus damage and instead keep the Interact action to switch damage types. Have their effects only take action when switched to the upgrade's damage type.
  • Have tactical weapons (the grade at level 2) provide 1 upgrade slot, and have each weapon grade above commercial add a weapon damage die, so you'd go to 2 damage dice at 2nd level with tactical weapons and up to 7 damage dice at 19th level with paragon weapons.

    So with this, you'd get a few benefits:

  • Very early on, you'd get access to damage type switching that would allow you to bypass resistances.
  • Your weapons would very quickly start to deal more damage, both letting them go through resistances more easily and speeding up combat encounters.
  • Because bonus damage would be decoupled from the different upgrades that give you more damage types, you wouldn't need to pile these on just to deal more weapon damage, and could instead pick them for their unique effects.


  • I'm reminded of how weapon fusions work in 1e. 1e weapon fusions aren't damage adders. Instead they change the damage type of your weapon or add critical effects. The damage adder in 1e comes from the kind of insane damage dice progression on high level weapons. A level 20 longarm could be rolling something like 9d10 or 16d6 for its damage dice while also adding the user's level to damage. Of course that exact progression shouldn't be copied over for 2e since that scaling was designed for 1e characters with two health bars.

    If the energy damage modules just gave your weapon the versatile or modular property that would drop their power level to bring them in reach of lower level characters and at the same time make them much less mandatory for high level characters.

    A tangentially related idea hit me a minute ago that if damage at low levels seems too low across the board we could try rolling two dice at level 1. This is admittedly a radical change but it does have some benefits. It dilutes the Strength to damage advantage that melee gets and makes the first striking upgrade a less dramatic power difference. Upgrading your lasgun from tactical to advanced currently doubles your damage whereas going from 2 to 3 dice is only +50%. It does however make things substantially more lethal at low levels unless other numbers are adjusted across the board.


    siegfriedliner wrote:
    So I was looking at one of the playtest feedback and they mentioned having a couple of parties struggling with enemies with resistance at low level.

    Unlike Pathfinder, you don't buy Runes in Starfinder, you buy new weapons. So you will be forced to have backup weapons with nearly the same stats as your main weapon (just one less "rune"). So it's very easy to switch damage type (as long as you avoid buying weapons with the same damage type).

    Also, Starfinder weapons tend to deal much more diverse damage than Pathfinder weapons. In Pathfinder, martials are stuck with physical damage and very often forced to choose only one of them (Fighter can't switch weapon types, most ranged damage is piercing). In Starfinder, you'll deal tons of very fancy damage types.

    Overall, I expect resistance to be much easier to overcome in Starfinder. The first level may be an issue but once you get to level 2 you should have at least 2 weapons. Also, remember that for the playtest characters are created at the level of the adventure, they don't level up organically. So they don't have these backup weapons and as such it creates an issue where there should be none.


    Plus you get elemental modules at the same levels you'd get elemental runes. So it's about neutral.

    But it seems like the situation is, if you're expecting to fight skeletons, bring a scattergun. (or perhaps consider purchasing an archaic firearm, as most of them have the concussive trait). There's gotta be an old-style firearms dealer somewhere in a big modern city.

    Additionally, on Paizo's end, giving more firearms the concussive trait seems like it'd be a good idea. Perhaps Paizo should add a battle rifle that can inflict the concussive trait?

    Wayfinders

    More grenades with the concussive trait would be good too. Grenades are an easy way to carry different damage types.


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    moosher12 wrote:
    Additionally, on Paizo's end, giving more firearms the concussive trait seems like it'd be a good idea. Perhaps Paizo should add a battle rifle that can inflict the concussive trait?

    It's odd that the other projectile guns haven't got it, honestly. Hopefully it'll be added in.

    You could also introduce a couple traits that do similar things for other, commonly resisted damage types. Make a Plasmatic or Electromagnetic trait on plasma weapons, for example, save the language swaps the initial piercing damage for fire, and bludgeoning for electricity. Radioactive weapons could do something similar, but swapping poison damage for piercing, and fire for bludgeoning, in order to represent how radiation can burn as well as sicken.

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