I think Computers should be a skill Everyone, every PC. I mean literally everyone should be trained in at level 1, Envoys to Soldiers to other classes. It feels very awkward to be the only one trained in Computers where the world is surrounded by them. If you're going to add in 2 new skills every character and class should gain a bonus of +1 Trained skill to compensate, rather it is a Pathfinder 2E Class or Starfinder 2E class. Even Rogues should get +1 Trained skills to make up the 2 new skills..
If you do not do this then Fighters and other low Skill Martials will find Untrained Improvisation to be even better bang for their buck and feel like a needed Feat Tax.
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Trained in Computers represents a character with basic hacking and programming skills as well as probably a college level proficiency with computerized research. It is not required to simply use a computer. Frankly, quite a few people who do all their work on a computer would not qualify as trained. Plenty of normal people in the Starfinder Universe will get by on a lore skill to do the specific computer thing they do for work.
Counterpoint: I want to intentionally roleplay a character who is completely computer illiterate. But yes I agree, more skills should maybe mean more starting proficiencies to compensate.
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I do think condensing skills somewhere is needed, as simply adding extra trained skills won't help with high level skill use. But most starfinder PCs do not need to be trained in computers.
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> Trained in Computers represents a character with basic hacking and programming skills as well as probably a college level proficiency with computerized research
yeah. I've seen this in other RPGs, they explicitly spelled out that no proficiency didn't mean you couldn't do it e.g. "drive (automobiles)". What it meant for something like a chase or another under stress situation it was going to be hard because you really aren't that good at it. You shouldn't be doing any kind of racing, even street racing.
The number of people I know that can barely make things work... and I'm always astonished at how little they know about their own phone, or features of software they use daily. Your browser prompts you to log into it and save your passwords! why?!!!!
They have only come out with two new skills, not a massive number.
Specifically, the number increased from 16 skills to 18 skills - not counting Lore subtypes since those are often thought of and gained separately from other skills. That is a 12.5% increase in the number of skills.
Since most classes give 4 skills trained at level 1, increasing that value by 12.5% to compensate would result in classes needing to provide 4.5 skills at trained proficiency at level 1.
I do not think that is feasible.
Also, this does not address concerns about the number of skills at proficiency ratings higher than Trained. I feel that the concern being noticeable at level 1 and mathematically unsolvable there indicates that a different approach is needed.
So the more valuable information is for the feedback of the playtest to indicate if the slight increase in the number of skills feels detrimental to the characters.
They have only come out with two new skills, not a massive number.Computers and Piloting are not new skills, Sf1e had more skills than PF2e.
Sure, but it's not the SF1 skill system being used, it's the PF2 skill system.
Okay how would you gain proficiency without using your Skill Increases or Skill Feat, if I may ask? There is very limited ways to get proficiencies without using either of those things which makes you weaker in other areas when you actually need to pass high DCs.
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Okay how would you gain proficiency without using your Skill Increases or Skill Feat, if I may ask? There is very limited ways to get proficiencies without using either of those things which makes you weaker in other areas when you actually need to pass high DCs.
Aside from skill increases and skill feats you can gain more skill proficiencies from:
* Ancestry feats
* general feats
* subclass choices
* dedication feats
* the rogue/investigator dedications in particular
* increasing Int above +0
OP has not had to explain how to open up a pdf and it shows :p jkjk
In all honesty though, I don't mind computers not being on everyone. Untrained means that it might take a half an hour or so to find an accurate source for a fact you were looking to find, or a few hours to do intensive research on a subject assuming you're using a Simple DC; which is about accurate. Imo, you really shouldn't be expected or able to do better than that without training, and it's not super hard to get trained skill in pf2/sf2
Like said above, piloting and computers arent needed for mundane operations, amd professionals get by on a lore skill just fine
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Both of the skills are entirely optional, I had plenty of characters that were utterly uninterested in competing with others when it came to those skills in Starfinder 1.
Irrespective of that untrained improvisation is already a pretty decent feat, particularly if you want to use the aid reaction.
Personally, I expect piloting to appear on more characters that have significant investment in DEX and Computers on classes with the right mental stat - likely Technomancers once that playtest starts... or the various hacker operatives etc.
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Beyond your views of versimilitude, based on the traps in Cosmic Birthday it would be a good idea for 2-4 party members expecting to be on a ship or space station with hazards to have Computers, 2-3 Crafting, 2+ Thievery, and 1-2 Arcana, and Ocultism (Religion sometimes serving as an acceptible substitute).
I'm sure Athletics, Acrobatics, Nature, and Survival are going to be sorely needed on harsh undeveloped planets.
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Based on how often I've seen people fall for missinformation (which is the critical fail result of access infosphere) I think most people are untrained
Quite literally this. Its even common for people that most people would consider intelligent due to their daily jobs to see the most random obviously fake news and believe them because they can't be bothered to check if its actually real or not. People often forget that because most of us were raised in age in which most people had to learn how to use a computer that its far from being the norm to know how to actually use one. I even think there's some tests that say that because nowadays most things are automatic and don't need much tweaking like before that young people don't really know how to use a computer properly, also because of smartphones. If SF2e takes place in a sci-fi future I wouldn't expect less than this situation to become worse.
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The Socity skill in PF2e says "Recall Knowledge about local history, important personalities, legal institutions, societal structure, and humanoid cultures. The GM might allow Society to apply to other creatures that are major elements of society in your region, such as the draconic nobility in a kingdom of humans ruled by dragons."
Considering how dependent our current society is on the internet as a societal structure. Some computer checks used to find info on the infosphere maybe could be rolled with Socity instead. Often finding info on the internet is less of a tech skill and more of knowing the right cultural things. Even though I use Discord I had a hard time finding the local X-wing group because their Discord server didn't have X-wing in the name, I finally ran into someone at the store who knew the name of it.
Diplomacy allows you to gather information that would be another way to roll the example above without using computer skills. Any lore skill would likely know how to find info on that subject on the infosphere.
Deception could be used for making fake news on the infosphere.
For hacking a password Socity could be used to guess it or Diplomacy to find it by gathering information. One time I walked into the office at work and overheard the supervisor and IT specialist were trying to guess the secretary's password. On my way out I said "it's your kids birthday," and she yelled back "how'd you know that?" She had just got back from maternity leave, it's also on the list of things not to use as your password.
Anyway, the point is many computer tasks might be able to use other skills.
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Beyond your views of versimilitude, based on the traps in Cosmic Birthday it would be a good idea for 2-4 party members expecting to be on a ship or space station with hazards to have Computers, 2-3 Crafting, 2+ Thievery, and 1-2 Arcana, and Ocultism (Religion sometimes serving as an acceptible substitute).
I'm sure Athletics, Acrobatics, Nature, and Survival are going to be sorely needed on harsh undeveloped planets.
This is what worries me about having enough skills in SF2e. To replace SF1e engineering you need crafting and Thievery. Maybe it balances out if other skills were combined. Now you need crafting to fix a door and thievery to open it, unless you can craft something open, that also just sounds weird.
At least in SF1e not having someone with engineering would have been a much bigger issue than not having a melee fighter in the party. If a party has overlapping skills that to me just means there are more opportunities to aid other's skill checks, which is a good thing in a game that wants to encourage teamwork.
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That is some fun gymnastics around Society. If you are "recalling knowledge about...societal structure" in reference to the infosphere or computers, you are recalling knowledge about just that, the infosphere or the impact of computers on the society.
The question of how to use computers in general, or a specific way, would be a Computers check.
That said, there is always an allowance given to GMs to accept other skills in place of the standard skill. But, that does not mean that the multitude of alternate possibilities needs to be written down in a core book.
While I agree, I perpetually raise my eyebrow at the separation of the old engineering skill into Crafting and Thievery, I begrudgingly accept it for its mechanical simplicity (in corelation to pf2e) and the base stat usage (Dex). At the tables that I run, I'll likely allow either Crafting or Thievery in most situations, with specific situations allowing one or the other.
Beyond your views of versimilitude, based on the traps in Cosmic Birthday it would be a good idea for 2-4 party members expecting to be on a ship or space station with hazards to have Computers, 2-3 Crafting, 2+ Thievery, and 1-2 Arcana, and Ocultism (Religion sometimes serving as an acceptible substitute).
I'm sure Athletics, Acrobatics, Nature, and Survival are going to be sorely needed on harsh undeveloped planets.
This is what worries me about having enough skills in SF2e. To replace SF1e engineering you need crafting and Thievery. Maybe it balances out if other skills were combined. Now you need crafting to fix a door and thievery to open it, unless you can craft something open, that also just sounds weird.
You often need Crafting OR Computers OR sometimes Thievery to open a door. Crafting OR Thievery to jam/bypass a trap, Thievery twice OR Arcana/Computers once each to bypass a technomagical trap, Thievery ORArcana, OR Dispel Magic on a magical trap, etc. There's a lot of flexibility built into skill checks related to hazards or obstacles.
The safes in the bank required both Computers AND Thievery to bypass the safes, but it's a bank so I think high security is warranted. Disabling a generator harmlessly is Thievery only, but if you fail you trigger a hazard that has Crafting, Thievery, or Computers all as options to stop it from exploding. There's also a solo Thievery check to pick a lock on a low tech locker. Presumably you can bash it open if that fails.
It's a terrible idea not to have any of these covered, and most you'll want double coverage on (some of the traps require multiple checks and having 2+ people working at once will make things better), but I think a reasonable party can cover what they need to. Witchwarpers need to be team players with their extra skill trainings and Envoys need to cover tech not just face skills, though.