This hurts my head too much 2e playtest 'Environmental Protections'

[Orikkro]

"On basic enviromental protections:
Some armors do this through an environmental field (a minor force field specially tuned to protect from a vacuum that doesn’t reduce damage from attacks), while others can be closed with helmets and airtight seals. While using your armor’s environmental protections, your armor can protect you from the dangerous environmental effects of a vacuum and can facilitate self-contained breathing. This allows you to survive and breathe while within a vacuum or a submerged area of non-damaging liquid. This protection doesn’t protect you from smoke inhalation, inhaled poisons, thick or thin atmospheres, toxic atmospheres, or corrosive atmospheres."

Thin atmospheres... you know what a vacuum is.. airtight.. if a O2 molecule can't slip through then how is a complete chemical poison compound. Self contained breathing... you mean like fire fighters wear to not die from smoke inhalation.

Corrosive is the only one that makes sense at least for a physical protection as it would attack said airtight seals.

[Finoan]

TTRPG game rules are not a reality simulator.

Also, we are talking about a universe where magic and magitech are both readily available. Surely there is room in the narrative for a portable form of environmental protections are able to get the job done without being a space suit from Earth's 1970s or modern (and cumbersome) SCBA gear. And that such portable, ubiquitously available magitech-based environmental protections are only capable of the basic life support listed in the rules.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

thick and thin atmosphere one is really ridiculous

otherwise it make as much sense as stormtrooper helmet filter smoke but not poison

[Orikkro]

Finoan wrote:

TTRPG game rules are not a reality simulator.

Also, we are talking about a universe where magic and magitech are both readily available. Surely there is room in the narrative for a portable form of environmental protections are able to get the job done without being a space suit from Earth's 1970s or modern (and cumbersome) SCBA gear. And that such portable, ubiquitously available magitech-based environmental protections are only capable of the basic life support listed in the rules.

A vacuum is a thin atmosphere. By default for something to protect you against a vacuum it has to function in any atmospheric density from standard to partial and even full vacuum doesn't matter how it is achieved the most simple physics dictate it and Starfinder is more technology based then magic.

[ElementalofCuteness]

I assumed that is why Injector weapons are a thing to be honest...

[Zoken44]

I can justify this.

The devices used to provide that breathable air and seal in a vacuum are take up resources. So, by standard programming, they only activate when they detect vacuum. Any other time, they are just passive systems, building up resources until they're needed.

This way the corpos selling the armor and the upgrades and mods can charge you for the additional environmental protections.

[Porridge]

Orikkro wrote:

"On basic enviromental protections:

Some armors do this through an environmental field (a minor force field specially tuned to protect from a vacuum that doesn’t reduce damage from attacks), while others can be closed with helmets and airtight seals. While using your armor’s environmental protections, your armor can protect you from the dangerous environmental effects of a vacuum and can facilitate self-contained breathing. This allows you to survive and breathe while within a vacuum or a submerged area of non-damaging liquid. This protection doesn’t protect you from smoke inhalation, inhaled poisons, thick or thin atmospheres, toxic atmospheres, or corrosive atmospheres."

Thin atmospheres... you know what a vacuum is.. airtight.. if a O2 molecule can't slip through then how is a complete chemical poison compound. Self contained breathing... you mean like fire fighters wear to not die from smoke inhalation.

Corrosive is the only one that makes sense at least for a physical protection as it would attack said airtight seals.

One of the most disappointing features of SF1 for me was how difficult the default environmental protections made it to make "struggle against the environment" adventures. Especially since this is a common trope in sci-fi.

So you can add me to the list of people hoping to see the default environmental protections minimized/cut down. I'd much prefer these show up as (1) additional equipment that has an opportunity cost, and so isn't ubiquitous, and (2) things that are relatively specialized (perhaps one upgrade protects from extreme heat, a different one protects from extreme cold, a third protects against extreme pressure, etc). This would make adventures with "struggle against the environment" features much more do-able.

EDIT: And to the extent to which default environmental protections are kept, I hope they shorten the duration. E.g., if armor comes with (lvl minutes) of environmental protections, then it's something you generally keep off and only turn on during emergencies. But if all armor comes with multiple hours or days of environmental protections, then it's effectively removed as a plot point for GMs.

[Gyrkin]

It didn't hurt my head because I thought "that's really stupid" and instantly decided to house rule that, when active, environmental protections do protect against those things. Some things, the corrosive atmosphere for example, could damage your armor but as long as it's still functioning they wouldn't damage you.

Also note "A suit of armor’s environmental protections last for a number of days equal to its item level."

So since all Commercial grade armor has an item level of 0 that means armor only has environmental protections once you upgrade it to Tactical grade. I don't think they intended it to be that way because the rules also state:

"All non-archaic armors, except those with the exposed trait, allow you to breathe and survive in a vacuum or in non-hazardous underwater environments."

I think the best fix would be to change it to "A suit of armor’s environmental protections last for a number of days equal to its item level. Treat 0 level armor as level 1 for this rule."

Or if you want a campain where "struggle against the environment" is a thing, just leave it that only the better grades of armor have protections.

[Wellquest]

Gyrkin wrote:

It didn't hurt my head because I thought "that's really stupid" and instantly decided to house rule that, when active, environmental protections do protect against those things. Some things, the corrosive atmosphere for example, could damage your armor but as long as it's still functioning they wouldn't damage you.

Also note "A suit of armor’s environmental protections last for a number of days equal to its item level."

So since all Commercial grade armor has an item level of 0 that means armor only has environmental protections once you upgrade it to Tactical grade. I don't think they intended it to be that way because the rules also state:

"All non-archaic armors, except those with the exposed trait, allow you to breathe and survive in a vacuum or in non-hazardous underwater environments."

I think the best fix would be to change it to "A suit of armor’s environmental protections last for a number of days equal to its item level. Treat 0 level armor as level 1 for this rule."

I also am of the opinion that the level 0 thing should be fixed, but 1 whole day seems so long. 1 hour per day per level seems fine to me, and makes you actually think about what you're doing in space and limiting your risky spaceship plays. I like a game that makes me think- Hence why I played Shadowrun 4e for so long, haha

[ElementalofCuteness]

Depending on your situation you won't be able to eat or drink in your armor without removing it. So you'd die of hunger and/or thirst before your day limit is up past a certain point.

[Zoken44]

I agree that it should be "a number of hours equal to the item level, minimum 1."

[Ed Emmer]

Has anyone looked at the temperature protections for modern armor? There is no information about basic environmental protections shielding against temperatures. And the only gear that can help protect against that is the thermal capacitor armor upgrade. Problem is that the temperatures experienced outside of an insulating atmosphere fall into the "Incredible" category pretty quick. For example, the average temperature on the sunlit side of the Moon is 250 F and the average temperature on the side in shadow is -200 F. So if you wanted to have an adventure take place on the surface of a typical moon-like body in the Pact Worlds, PCs will need level 14 thermal capacitors to protect from those temperature ranges. I know, it is science fantasy in a setting with both high technology and magic but the science-y part of my brain won't drop this. Or am I missing something?

[Dragonchess Player]

Playability considerations over strict scientific accuracy, basically.

Similar to how radiation is treated in-game, instead of a "realistic" modeling of it.

[Driftbourne]

A simple solution if the PCs really need higher-level thermal capacitors for a mission an NPC can just loan them to the party for that mission. That's no different than the Starfinder Socity loaning the PCs a ship when needed.

NASA Astronauts didn't have to buy their space suits, they are assigned to them by the Mission Control Center.

[Dargoth876]

In SF1, since the environnement protection is built inside the armor, I went with "if it is activated, you don't have the problem for breathing", Including from smelly thing, poisonous gaz, dangerous pheromones, etc. SF1 has the Life Bubble 1st-level spell was also pretty thorough for the protection, so if a player has invested in this spell, then you must take it into account.

For SF2, I don't see the equivalent of the life bubble at low level. Air Bubble is a reaction that gives you 1 minute to handle the breathing problem. Then you have the 3rd-level spell Life Seal, that gives you 6-hours as a 4th-level spell. The armor environnement protection should be an upgrade that compares to the spell at some level...

I think of the automated air mask in Star Trek Discovery, present with a specific exploration suit (aka armor) but not on every uniform, it is deployed as a reaction or with detection of a dangerous compound.

I don't see why for a playability reason we want it to be easy to deal with vacuum but not low density atmosphere or toxic gaz. Except if you are of the Aspis Consortium and want to make adventurers pay for the "low-atmosphere licence", the "poisonous licence", etc. And then every adventurers would hack their armor licences...

[DMurnett]

Dargoth876 wrote:

I don't see why for a playability reason we want it to be easy to deal with vacuum but not low density atmosphere or toxic gaz. Except if you are of the Aspis Consortium and want to make adventurers pay for the "low-atmosphere licence", the "poisonous licence", etc. And then every adventurers would hack their armor licences...

I can see one. Something like a poisonous atmosphere is something that can be reasonably escaped, scaled in severity to match party level, endured for some time even without preparation, especially if there are settlements or outposts to take you in to rest, and are overall a hazard to contend with which can make for interesting gameplay.

The icy vacuum of space meanwhile is a very extreme binary on/off switch, which when pushed triggers a TPK (without environmental protections to offset it). It would be hard to justify scaling it in any way because there's only one thing to speak of, the vacuum. If its danger level is set to any one thing it would either be entirely unsurvivable by low level characters or a joke for high level characters, quite possibly both. I personally see this as very undesirable, combating the natural properties of space is a struggle that should be compelling at all levels, even if the scale of what that means is different.

I'm in favor of majorly nerfing or even reworking environmental protections but regardless I want it to stay exclusive to vacuums. The actual reason that system is there is so that you can interact with the hazard of Space(TM) on a PC level, which is a valuable thing to keep. Other hazards simply don't need this kind of consideration to work.

[moosher12]

I think I can agree that high altitude/low density atmosphere should probably have immunity. Not toxic gas though.

There is a (meatspace) mechanical solution to this, though: Valves and filters.

Fresh air can freely travel in, but cannot travel out.

Could be used to keep a space suit supplied while in the presence of Oxygen. Like in Space Engineers!

Air comes in, and if it's bad air, you get bad air. A filter however can filter out contaminants. Not all space suits are completely enclosed in the conventional sense after all. A business suit uses fields to keep you safe despite just looking like a guy in a suit.

Ultimately, GM side, I want environmental protections to be something that has to be earned. It does not sit right with me for all Level 1 members to come in and say they are each immune to a whole host of hazards.

[Driftbourne]

The problem with environmental protections is they needs to work differently for different types of adventures. In some cases, it enables the adventure to happen at all, on the flip side it messes with or in some cases prevents the use of trap like hazards or survival adventures. All of those should be options at any level.

I don't know how to balance all of that out, but at least if environmental protection is an armor upgrade and or available separate from armor, then adding or removing it won't mess with the PCs armor.

Since equipment is tied to level, one solution is to loan the PCs high-level equipment when it's a requirement to play the adventure. The flipside of that is trickier because you need a good reason why the PCs have lost, left behind, or have had their environmental protection disabled.

[BigNorseWolf]

There's limits to how far you can push the gameism to break immersion and being fine with walking on the moon but your armor can't help you stand on top of mount everest doesn't just break that it nukes it.

[moosher12]

If I had to make a home rule of it. I'd probably lean toward thin but breathable atmospheric conditions to drain your suit's air before you get a bad effect, but with double the time period before your suit runs out of air to keep you supplied. With the justification that "For every unit of air you spend, you're getting half that unit of air back ambiently"