Devoted Guardian compatible with Shields of the Spirit?

[Ravingdork]

Devoted Guardian from Knights of Lastwall says "Requirements Your last action was to Raise a Shield."

Shields of the Spirit from Player Core 2 says "You Raise your Shield..."

Can I therefore use Shields of the Spirit followed by Devoted Guardian? Or would that not work since I did not specifically take the Raise a Shield action?

[Baarogue]

I don't have PC2 yet and Shields of the Spirit isn't on AoN yet, so... what's the full text of the action? Specifically, are there any subordinate actions after "You Raise your Shield"?

If you're asking if "You Raise your Shield" counts as "Raise a Shield", yes it does. They frequently rephrase the text of an action to match its context in a sentence. Even in the text of Raise a Shield itself: "When you have Raised a Shield", "Raised" instead of "Raise"

[YuriP]

You can't use Devoted Guardian with Shields of the Spirit.

Your last action was't a Raise a Shield but a Shields of the Spirit. Raise a Shield is a subordinated action so it cannot meet the Devoted Guardian's requirements.

[shroudb]

That's the age old question that's repeated in various forms, likes, "if I use Flurry, is my last action a Strike?"

To my knowledge, there's no consensus. So "up to the GM" I guess.

[Finoan]

Yes, this is the same question on the same rules just with a different specific set of activities.

The rule is:

Subordinate Actions wrote:

Using an activity is not the same as using any of its subordinate actions.

The only example given in the rules that is relevant to this question is:

Quote:

As another example, if you used an action that specified, “If the next action you use is a Strike,” an activity that includes a Strike wouldn't count, because the next thing you are doing is starting an activity, not using the Strike basic action.

Since this example only uses 'next action' type checking, many people adjudicate that the rule doesn't apply to 'last action' type checking.

I think it does still apply.

GMs may vary.

[Gortle]

shroudb wrote:

That's the age old question that's repeated in various forms, likes, "if I use Flurry, is my last action a Strike?"

To my knowledge, there's no consensus. So "up to the GM" I guess.

I think it has been answered well enough.

[Bombdude]

It's written in all caps. "Raise your Shield". That's very clearly referring to the ability. You don't just randomly capitalize a string of words unless referencing a known skill.

Full text:
You Raise your Shield, causing ephemeral spirit shields to float within your champion's aura. the shields last until the start of your next turn or until you're no longer raising your shield, whichever comes first. While one of your allies is in your champion's aura, the shields grant them a +1 status bonus to AC, and each time an enemy makes an attack against the ally, the enemy takes 1d4 spirit damage (even if it misses). the benefit applies only while an ally is in your aura, ending for any ally that leaves and applying to any that enters later. As normal, you don't count as your own ally and therefore don't get the benefits of the spirit shields yourself.

Unless Paizo randomly made a mistake and capitalized Raise your Shield and no other phrase in this description, it's referring to the ability.

[Finoan]

I know how the English language works.

The question is in the Subordinate Actions rule. Not if you have your shield raised or not.

Because if the last action that you 'used' was Shields of the Spirit and you are only getting the benefits of the Raise a Shield action as a subordinate action inside that, then when you try to use Devoted Guardian and it checks what the last action you used was it won't see Raise a Shield, it will see Shields of the Spirit as the last action that you used. That is the debated question.

Just like Metamagic actions that check if 'the next action you use is' and if the next action you use is something like Spellstrike, then it doesn't qualify.

But like I said upthread, the Subordinate Actions rule only has one example of a forward-looking 'next action is' check, so there are more than a few people who think that subordinate actions of activities do qualify for 'previous action was' checks.

[Squiggit]

Essentially the argument no one has been able to get a consensus on is whether an activity is meant to fully encapsulate its subordinate action or not.

Is the last thing you did cast Shields of the Spirit which contains Raise a Shield within it, or is the last thing you did Raise a Shield because doing so is part of the effect of the spell?

Finoan is a big proponent of the former interpretation, but realistically there's nothing addressing that in the RAW, and sometimes the discussions get confusing because people will point to other, completely unrelated rules and try to bring them into the discussion.

[Finoan]

Squiggit wrote:

realistically there's nothing addressing that in the RAW

Nothing in the RAW other than the actual rule sans examples.

Finoan wrote:

The rule is:

Subordinate Actions wrote:

Using an activity is not the same as using any of its subordinate actions.

So I don't see it as an unreasonable ruling that using Shield of the Spirit is not the same as using Raise a Shield - because Raise a Shield is one of the subordinate actions and RAW definitely says that using the activity of Shield of the Spirit is not the same as using any of its subordinate actions such as Raise a Shield.

[Squiggit]

Taking that rule out of its context leads to all sorts of strange conclusions, like strikes in activities not benefitting from most damage bonuses.

In context... it's saying you can't use power attack if an ability gives you a free strike.

[TheFinish]

What is abundantly clear to me is this could be clarified in 10 seconds by any developer and they never have even though we've had this debate multiple times over the years. It's mind boggling.

[graystone]

TheFinish wrote:

What is abundantly clear to me is this could be clarified in 10 seconds by any developer and they never have even though we've had this debate multiple times over the years. It's mind boggling.

You could say that about quite a few things in the game...

[Bombdude]

IMO because it said "Your last action was 'to' Raise a Shield" not "your last action was 'Raise a Shield' the specific ability". It just wants your shield to be up before you use it. The 'to' is generally used elsewhere as a signifier for a generic, not specific, action

[Ferious Thune]

There are other things that have a requirement that "Your shield is raised." Shield Wall, for example. Weirdly, Shield Block doesn't have that in the requirements, though it is in the description.

Point being, if they meant that you just need to have your shield raised to use the action, they could have said that, instead of the last action language. At the very least, you can't do anything in between Raise a Shield and Devoted Guardian. The ambiguity here comes in because Shield of the Spirit doesn't include a second subordinate action.

[TheFinish]

Ferious Thune wrote:

There are other things that have a requirement that "Your shield is raised." Shield Wall, for example. Weirdly, Shield Block doesn't have that in the requirements, though it is in the description.

Point being, if they meant that you just need to have your shield raised to use the action, they could have said that, instead of the last action language. At the very least, you can't do anything in between Raise a Shield and Devoted Guardian. The ambiguity here comes in because Shield of the Spirit doesn't include a second subordinate action.

Just wanted to point out, it's in the Trigger for Shield Block:

"Trigger While you have your shield raised, you would take physical damage (bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) from an attack."

[Ferious Thune]

Ah, thanks. For some reason I read that as the ability text.