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Btw, half of the worries I had about Action Efficiency are mitigated by the new familiar ability "item delivery"
with a command (so 1 action): the familiar takes an item you are holding, use a move action to get to a target, and then gives the item to the target OR administers the item.
the poison familiar ability also helps, but not as impressive: doesn't require command, is just a single interact, so it can be done with Independent, and basically applies an injury poison you had prefilled it with to an ally's blade (I guess here a familiar's ally, so that would include you, but the wording may imply that for some reason the familiar can only poison your ally's weapons and not yours, not sure about that)
that said, here we go again having a familiar being kinda mandatory if you're not a bomber as a negative, but at least action efficiency is now very good.
In terms of action compression, the delivery service doesn't sound too impressive. Lab Assistant + Manual Dexterity already lets a familiar make + admninister elixirs for 1 action, or... hm. I wanted to say that they can make + chuck the item to someone else with Interact, but the Interact action says you "typically" need to pass a DC 15 ranged attack roll for that. Familiars are Pets, and Pets can't make Strikes. However, it's just a raw attack roll, not a Strike action (you're not trying to deal damage). However however, the familiar doesn't have an attack modifier, so it's going to have a hard time actually making the DC. (Even for PCs, does an attack roll interact with MAP if it's not part of an action with the Attack trait?)
That said, I feel like this was probably an oversight, and that a more permissive GM would allow it. Point is, this is competing with existing action compression that's potentially more useful (1A elixirs on yourself and adjacent allies, or 1A make+pass off at some range.)
(I guess this also means a familiar can produce + feed a quick vial to a Mutagenist for 1 action, which makes their drawback suppression only cost 1 action. That makes it a bit more attractive IMO, particularly once it starts giving physical damage resistance. I don't think this works for Toxicologist though, since the familiar doesn't have your 1A weapon poisoning, before you get to whether it's allowed to take the field action at all.)
Overall I don't mind the familiar being a useful action compressor—there should be a reason it's worth taking, after all. Design-wise, it does run into the trouble that it's non-obvious for a new player what the benefits of a familiar might be, and the value also varies strongly on how much your GM ignores familiar targeting/movement/AoE damage in combat.
For Poison Reservoir, I agree that the free poison application is nice, but it's a bit of a one-trick pony as Poison Reservoir + Independent use up both your familiar abilities, leaving it with nothing else to do. ...Also, it requires a poison to be pre-installed in the familiar. Even if you accept that a QA'd poison doesn't disappear at the end of the round once it's been put on a weapon, I think it's harder to argue (RAW at least) that sticking it in a reservoir to change its activation preserves it. That means you'd need to make it with AA, which loses you the damage-on-save additive feat effect.
This brings up a wider point. There are a bunch of alchemical permanent items that work by loading in an alchemical consumable, sometimes two of the same consumable, to fuel an activation later in the day. Previously, this just meant that you made the items during daily prep and loaded them, then used it as needed. All good, it costs you 0.5 or 1 of your many reagents. Now, however, you only get 8ish stable items per day, so it costs a lot more opportunity-wise to make use of them. (With a couple you can just buy some lv1 bombs from a shop and be fine, but with most it gets more awkward.)
This issue also applies to the Toxi's Lv20 feat Plum Deluge from Fists of the Ruby Phoenix. It requires 3 units of a contact poison, which previously meant 1 of the Toxi's 26+ daily reagents; now it means 3 of your 9+ daily AA items.
Lol.
Dude, that's still 2 Actions, and what happens after you use it?
Your familiar is in another square.
And if that ability requires Manual Dex, that's your 2 familiar ability slots gone. Meaning you will have to Command the familiar to move them back! It's not even possible to be an action save without Independent, which means Dedication time.
Moreover, I've had all my GMs thus far want to ignore involving the familiar in combat, and so the helpful little guys just sit on my PC the whole time. But as soon as the familiar is moving across the battlefield, they get a token, and start being a target.
1 action to administer something in range.
That means 1 extra action done.
It's amazing action economy.
No, it really is not, please actually read before replying.
You are "saving" an action up front by adding an action cost later. The familiar ends out of position and can no longer help you. You must command the familiar to return to you later to get back to normal.
This means it is not really an action save at all.
Even IF you also have Independent, that return move could have been spent on other Independent actions.
Like Lab Assistant, which is genuinely a way to save actions. Familiars get 2 "hands" via Manual Dex, so they should be able to hold an Alchemical Chart (though a GM might rule they cannot benefit from it).
With the Chart to extend the Quick Alchemy items across turns, the familiar genuinely CAN hand off the Q-Alch items for saved actions and 1A usage.
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This new item delivery thing *might* have a use-case in getting items used in an emergency within the same turn, such as if the familiar has flying while the PC does not, but it seems far too rare and unlikely a reactive circumstance for me to ever consider occupying the slot.
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The Lab Assistant method is also an action save for any use of Quick Alchemy, which is far, far more a generically helpful use-case than remote item delivery.
The main "catch" with Lab-A is that the familiar cannot be relaying items off your belt due to its actions being occupied. But, as Alchemist can no longer prep a bunch of items anyways, this will likely end up being as good as it gets for Alchemists.
a)by RAW nothing in either Manual Dexterity or Lab assistant allows a familiar to Activate an alchemical item to Administer it.
b)even if you houserule it to be ok, you still need the familiar to do 3 actions to either mak or take the item, then move, then administer, this compresses said 3 actions into 2.
You still have yet to acknowledge that due to the familiar requiring more actions to return to you, it is not even a total action saver.
This makes the f.ability into a new action option, the familiar being allowed to pop the cork and administer elixirs.
This helps to understand that the use-case for a familiar to be the Dr, is useless when you have reach upon the patient yourself. So the very first circumstance in which this even becomes a valid choice is already unlikely; you must both not have reach upon the desired patient, AND you do not want to move within range yourself.
The circumstance in which you have the elixir in your hand, but want your familiar to dash and activate the elixir on your behalf is absurdly rare and narrow. And yet there are more costs/downsides to consider first.
Even if I had the f.ability for free, the circumstances in which I would WANT to send my familiar to deliver the item are vanishingly small.
As stated before, there are risks and costs associated with the familiar running across the battlefield.
And more importantly, every PC can feed elixirs. Even if it would take 1 more action up front (but the same total), I would be much more likely to choose to keep my familiar on my pack and either:
* move within reach myself
* throw it to an ally with reach upon my desired patient
Because, again, there is NO ACTION SAVE.
The only time it this f.ability would be enable something new is if the familiar can get to a dying/unconscious ally where no one else can before death would occur. Because every other patient is capable of drinking elixirs.
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I am completely baffled that you are going to bat for such an absurdly niche ability that, if selected, will likely be used once, the "but now my familiar is over there" issue will be noticed, and then it will promptly be forgotten about.
There's not even the option for this to be a hand-saver for the "2-H weapon alchemist" that I have seen before on these forums, as you must already have the elixir in your own hand as a prerequisite.
Like, do you even read what you write?
What's the suppossed action compression of Lab assistant? ! action to command and hand the item. 1 action for whomever got it to drink the item.
With the EXTREME caveat that whoever you handed off the item needs to ALSO have a free hand for any of this to happen. With the same 2 actions you can make it and administer it yourself.
As I wrote, the action compression of Lab Assistant comes from the Alchemical Chart.
The item allows Q-Alch creations to last 1 turn longer before dissolving.
This means that on turn one, you can call out an item to your familiar (not Command, just Independent) and the familiar will brew it.
Now, at any point during your next turn, the familiar has the item in-hand and an Independent action to make use of it.
Mostly, that's going to be putting it into your hand for a total of 0 of your actions.
I'm pretty sure there's a rule somewhere that says something like "if your familiar must make an attack roll use ___ for it's value" which would be great to use for the Interact throw/pass, but until I track that down I'm not going to hard recommend that as a valid thing you can do with it.
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Please refrain from accusing someone of that when you are the one too amped up to realize you are failing to properly read the post.
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Trip, your inability to understand that a an action saved now is better even if you have to (if you want) pay it back next round must make you really confused by car loans, mortgages, and credit cards. What dark, strange sorcery is this, that these fools don’t realize they’re getting nothing out of a loan?!
That said since I can’t buy insurance on my familiar against AOEs and other common risks identified by the fantasy underwriters, I would not take this particular investment.
FFS, yes, saying action "compression" is technically a misnomer, saying action "bonus" or action "saver" would be more accurate.
Because the familiar is doing the Q-Alch action outright on your behalf, it's not "compressing" anything.
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Yes, there is a meaningful difference between the f.delivery's "need an action later" that can enable it to be +1 action if left "unloaded" after the fact. I do not think I said otherwise.
To restate/compress: needing an action later makes this f.delivery a comparable action-loss when judged against anything that is flat action gain. The moment you "reload"/recall the familiar once it's inferior.
That why thinking of the f.delivery as a new option enabler, letting familiars feed elixirs, makes it easier to understand why it's not as useful as it may seem at first glance.
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The level of nick-picking pedantry being used to club at my post is astounding.
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Again, the f.delivery option requires multiple things to all be true simultaneously (in ways the Lab-A does not) for it to at all be helpful in the first place.
Item in-hand + you do -not- have reach on the patient + familiar can Stride to the patient in 1A + you think the future recall need is superior to spending +1A yourself, etc.
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Lab Assistant + Chart only requires you desire to use Q-Alch, and know what item you want to use next turn. Same level of "prediction" as any Draw done on your 3rd Action.
Most of the time, I want to use items myself in as few actions as possible. Using items on out-of-reach allies is a rare desire.
Independent + Lab-A + Chart enables me to skip a Q-Alch once every 2 turns.
Furthermore, this requires 0 actions from the Alchemist, which is a favorable comparison to the f.delivery, which requires a Command.
The 0 combat action need really does mean the only requirements to this constant benefit is for the familiar to remain on my shoulder and able-bodied.
There's just so many things that can go wrong with the f.delivery. Even something like flying PCs or impassible terrain now requires the familiar to have flight as well.
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I genuinely do not know why you are being so hostile, but it does nothing to change the benefits and limitations when comparing these 2 familiar setups.
I assure you that I know it sucks to realize that the new bone tossed to help you is actually kinda crap, but we mustn't let that cloud our judgement.
And to be clear, they really did toss us a shit of a bone. As soon as I saw the requirement of the item being in your hand, I sighed. A different familiar ability that instead of being "delivery action compression," enabled the familiar to Active alch elixirs would be 10x as helpful.
Even just the new option to Command: [Q-Alch] + [Feed me] would be a game-changing action save nearly akin to Quick Bomber for self-used items. It would even be quite balanced due to the familiar's 0 reach.
But Paizo know how nice that would be too, so they crippled the familiar ability before it was even released.
I'm pretty sure the only reason the Lab-A + Chart combo is possible is because of developer oversight. They seem hell-bent on preventing familiars from being used for +Actions as much as possible. They may even errata clarify that the Chart does not work for familiars.
a)by RAW nothing in either Manual Dexterity or Lab assistant allows a familiar to Activate an alchemical item to Administer it.
b)even if you houserule it to be ok, you still need the familiar to do 3 actions to either mak or take the item, then move, then administer, this compresses said 3 actions into 2.
Even just the new option to Command: [Q-Alch] + [Feed me] would be a game-changing action save nearly akin to Quick Bomber for self-used items. It would even be quite balanced due to the familiar's 0 reach.
You seem to be in agreement on this point; could I ask where you're getting this from? Because I've not been able to find anything.
Manual Dexterity lets the familiar take manipulate actions, and elixirs just take a 1-action manipulate (Interact on older ones, which is itself just a manipulate action) to use. Assuming they work like potions, you can feed them to another willing creature with the same action you'd otherwise use to drink them yourself.
I see stuff saying familiars/pets can't benefit from item bonuses and can't make strikes, but nothing banning them from using items (at least, once you've given them Manual Dexterity). So what's stopping you from spending 1 action to telling your familiar to QA an elixir and feed it to you?
(I admit I forgot that they have reach 0 so can't pass to adjacent allies normally, so they'd need to be able to make a ranged attack roll to do so. But feeding it to someone in the same space as them should be fine.)
Does everyone interested in familiars just never move? The action savings of any of the proposed options is easily lost if you ever have to command your familiar just to keep up with you in battle. Familiars are tiny, with default 25 speed and 0 reach. It's easy for a familiar to get left behind, even if it can be Independent. It must be in your space to use lab assistant, and must start in your space for item delivery. Item delivery then requires it to reach the target's space as well. It sounds like spell delivery for items. It's nothing to get excited over. It's not a substitute for real QoL options for the alchemist.
Familiars are one of those bits of the game where the writing is weaker. There's not anything in the rules explicitly permitting it, but it seems pretty common that tables let them ride on the PC's shoulder for free, and ignore them when it comes to AoEs—at least until you start sending the familiar out to do fancy combat things, like a Witch might.
There are reasons to think this is RAI, some of which you've noted. Things like the Valet action are a minor action saver, letting you draw 2 items at any time during your turn for the cost of 1 action... but if you need to command your familiar to run up to you every time you move, and then wait a round to actually use Valet, why would it ever be worthwhile? There's also stuff like the Kitsune Star Orb feat giving you a familiar that's a rock with move speed 0 and one of its two ability slots taken up, and that you can later use as a focus to cast an innate spell. There's some light wording hinting it's more like an item, but not as much as you'd expect if familiars were meant to be banned from being carried around.
It's also pretty common to let the familiar riding on your shoulder ignore AoE effects and never get targeted by enemies. This is less in the spirit of the written rules, but it's often justified on the basis that it's pretty annoying to have a class feat that has risks shutting down for a week every time someone uses a breath weapon or casts Fireball at you.
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You might want to acquire items that benefit a creature that assists you, such as an animal companion, familiar, or bonded animal. These items have the companion trait, meaning they function only for animal companions, familiars, and similar creatures. Normally, these are the only items a companion can use. Other items can qualify at the GM's discretion, but a companion can never Activate an Item.
Any worn companion item needs to be invested. However, your companion needs to invest it, rather than you doing so. This requires you to use the Invest an Item activity alongside your companion, helping them attune to the item and ensuring it is properly fit. A companion has an investiture limit of two items (instead of the 10-item limit a player character has).
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3207
While the rule ought to be referenced / pointed to in other places, this is as iron-clad of a restriction as Paizo has ever put to paper.
Directly after saying that companion/familiars may be able to use some kinds of items at GM discretion (such as a familiar w/ Lab Assistant holding an Alchemical Chart), the rules immediately state that Activates are a "never" kind of thing.
While GMs are free to say that's dumb, even I acknowledge how serious of an explosion of power it would be for familiars to do. One need only gesture at things like Oil of Haste, Necklace of Fireballs, etc.
This is why a specific familiar ability giving them the ability to narrowly Activate your alchemical items would be welcome and restrained. But instead we got a hyper-niche delivery thing that's not worth a familiar's ability slot.
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I’m pretty sure there’s a FAQ preventing familiars from
Activating items.
Searched around for a source, it was in one of those Logan Bonner videos that make a lot of people mad, where he answers questions that he says all the devs agree on and are too obvious to need a FAQ. Familiars can’t load crossbows or use interacts on potions and elixirs (or similar).
One of the basic rules is this: Specific overrides general. Yes, the general rule is that Familiars can't activate Items. However, the text of the new Item Delivery familiar ability specifically states the Familiar can administer the item it delivers if it is of an appropriate type and can be administered in one action. It specifically lists Alchemical Elixirs as an appropriate type of item.
I don’t dispute that.
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One of the basic rules is this: Specific overrides general. Yes, the general rule is that Familiars can't activate Items. However, the text of the new Item Delivery familiar ability specifically states the Familiar can administer the item it delivers if it is of an appropriate type and can be administered in one action. It specifically lists Alchemical Elixirs as an appropriate type of item.
Correct, we all agree with this.
The reason why it is a hyper-niche ability is that it is bound up in a specific contextual action; it completely nukes the use-case from orbit by requiring the item be in the Alchemist's hand ahead of time, then passed to the familiar as part of the action.
It means that the "good context" alignment to use the delivery ability begins when you are in a scenario in which you cannot use the item yourself, despite holding it. It mandates that you have already spent the actions or dodged the Draw to have the item ready for use. It mandates the familiar -not- be holding the item in preparation. It mandates the familiar and you be sharing squares before the action, and that they will move out of your square afterward.
In my opinion, this results in a rating of "not a good ability". Lab Assistant was already considered bad enough, and I think I've made my case as to why this new one compares so poorly.
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So it's not so much "rules as written", but "rules as based on what a dev said one time, based on nothing written prior, and henceforth passed down as verbal tradition"? That's, uh... well, it's something. I guess you can call it RAI, though I'd be more convinced it's rules as intended and not just a misspeak if they took the time to write it down anywhere. Maybe if they'd had a project where they revised and republished all their core rules...?
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So it's not so much "rules as written", but "rules as based on what a dev said one time, based on nothing written prior, and henceforth passed down as verbal tradition"? That's, uh... well, it's something. I guess you can call it RAI, though I'd be more convinced it's rules as intended and not just a misspeak if they took the time to write it down anywhere. Maybe if they'd had a project where they revised and republished all their core rules...?
No.
It is a core rule, with the text being as insistent on giving as hard a no as I have ever seen.
You might want to acquire items that benefit a creature that assists you, such as an animal companion, familiar, or bonded animal. These items have the companion trait, meaning they function only for animal companions, familiars, and similar creatures. Normally, these are the only items a companion can use. Other items can qualify at the GM's discretion, but a companion can never Activate an Item.
[...]https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3207
I do not know what form of mental blindness had you ignore my prior post, but I've already quoted this rule to you.
So it's not so much "rules as written", but "rules as based on what a dev said one time, based on nothing written prior, and henceforth passed down as verbal tradition"? That's, uh... well, it's something. I guess you can call it RAI, though I'd be more convinced it's rules as intended and not just a misspeak if they took the time to write it down anywhere. Maybe if they'd had a project where they revised and republished all their core rules...?
I’ll add you to the “mad” column.
I agree it’s ridiculous they’ve let him do this. I also believe him.
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No.
It is a core rule, with the text being as insistent on giving as hard a no as I have ever seen.
Ah, sorry, I did in fact miss your post. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I spotted the posts about the word-of-god videos and assumed they were citing the best source we had.
That is a pretty definitive statement, with the best counterargument I can think of being that it may have a more narrow intended interpretation based on its presence in the Companion Items section, full of permanent worn items with activations that the PC has to take instead. There's also the possible specific-over-general of Manual Dexterity, though there's room for ambiguity there. (Or there's the fact that your pet monkey is unable to feed itself your journeybread, and will now sadly starve to death.)
But then again, if you've got a designer asserting the stricter interpretation, then yeah that's fair evidence of RAI matching.
While GMs are free to say that's dumb, even I acknowledge how serious of an explosion of power it would be for familiars to do. One need only gesture at things like Oil of Haste, Necklace of Fireballs, etc.
I confess I'm not convinced at a glance that a class feat giving you two "free" preselected consumable activations per fight would be gamebreaking, though I appreciate that it may be outside of typical design specifications and need closer examination. Though, eliminating the draw costs of two preselected consumables via familiar hand-off is apparently fine?
I’ll add you to the “mad” column.
Not so much mad as surprised that people were claiming "RAW" off a video. Which, it turns out, they were not. My bad for responding too quickly.
The tricky part is that if familiars can Interact + Activate, they can handle items the exact same as PCs. Meaning, so long as you think it's valid for one PC to grab an item off another PC's belt, the familiar can too.
It would mean the familiar could be chucking necklace fireballs, feeding potions, using all those consumables, basically as an extension of the PC for 2:1 actions.
Not just 2 items per combat, and Independent is there too.
Think of the Activate action a lot like Cast a Spell. There's a *lot* of power behind it.
I guess my approach to the ruling here would be to clamp down on the item retrieval part, and say that no, PCs can't grab off other PC's belts mid-combat so easily, so neither can familiars. We have the list of Interact options here that include taking held items from another creature, which is a lot more limited.
I don't like the idea that a familiar could pull out a potion from your belt and chuck it down your throat for 1 of your actions, particularly because it would bypass going through your hands entirely. Having both your hands occupied increasing the action cost of other stuff seems like a pretty dangerous thing to mess with to me.
So clamping down on at least some parts of the pipeline seems worthwhile, but not necessarily all of them. I'm at least partway there; I'll give it some more thought. Perhaps all it takes is some nasty held item with no investment trait and a sustained/repeatable activation to really ruin things.
(Turns out you need a free hand even to activate your own worn items, I hadn't spotted that before.)
The mismatch between the rules and the way people actually play is why I hate familiars.
They should also write alchemists the feats that just do whatever these pet abilities are supposed to accomplish. Instead, they could shut down Lab Assistant by making it a Command, like Valet.
I think this is maybe one of those things where the designers couldn't not have some sort of pet/familiar system without disappointing a bunch of people that their character concept wasn't supported, but then actually finding a position where it's good for the system ended up being awkward.
I'm personally happy with them being shoulder decorations that spout out a few fixed abilities, and as an Alchemist I'll try to use them for what they're worth, but from a design perspective they'd be a lot cleaner with much less of the messy action economy interaction.
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The mismatch between the rules and the way people actually play is why I hate familiars.
They should also write alchemists the feats that just do whatever these pet abilities are supposed to accomplish. Instead, they could shut down Lab Assistant by making it a Command, like Valet.
I don't want the game to be vague. I want to know what the rules are. Especially for core class mechanics.
Can someone please tell me what all the new post remaster rules for handling and throwing items are and how we can now use them as budding alchemists? In a new thread please. Happy to wait a few weeks.
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Level 9 double brew let's you use Quick Alchemy to make an item and a one-turn versatile vial.
You then still have two actions to use both. That makes versatile vial uses a third action option after level 9 on any turn where you are using your main class feature.
I doubt I'll feel much need to use a familiar. You already have several action economy buffs baked into the core class.
Item Delivery:
If your familiar is adjacent to you, you can Command it to deliver an item. Instead of its normal 2 actions, your familiar Interacts to take an item you’re holding of light Bulk or less, then takes one move action, then finally Interacts to pass off the item to another willing creature. It can instead administer the item to the creature if it can do so with 1 action and has an appropriate type of item (such as alchemical elixir). If your familiar doesn’t reach the target this turn, it holds the item until commanded otherwise. Your familiar must have the manual dexterity ability to select this.
I'm not seeing a lot of problems here. You have to be holding the item for the Familiar to take it. The Familiar must take a Move Action. The only form of activation is to administer the Item to another willing creature. This is a really, really specific Activity. Finally, as it specifies "you can Command" and "instead of its normal 2 actions", no interaction with Independent.
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I'm not seeing a lot of problems here. You have to be holding the item for the Familiar to take it. The Familiar must take a Move Action. The only form of activation is to administer the Item to another willing creature. This is a really, really specific Activity. Finally, as it specifies "you can Command" and "instead of its normal 2 actions", no interaction with Independent.Item Delivery:
If your familiar is adjacent to you, you can Command it to deliver an item. Instead of its normal 2 actions, your familiar Interacts to take an item you’re holding of light Bulk or less, then takes one move action, then finally Interacts to pass off the item to another willing creature. It can instead administer the item to the creature if it can do so with 1 action and has an appropriate type of item (such as alchemical elixir). If your familiar doesn’t reach the target this turn, it holds the item until commanded otherwise. Your familiar must have the manual dexterity ability to select this.
I think the problem is the specificity.
It's close to useless and it also doesn't make any sense that a Familiar could do all of that off of one command but not be able to sit on your shoulder,draw and feed you an elixir.
I'm not seeing a lot of problems here. You have to be holding the item for the Familiar to take it. The Familiar must take a Move Action. The only form of activation is to administer the Item to another willing creature. This is a really, really specific Activity. Finally, as it specifies "you can Command" and "instead of its normal 2 actions", no interaction with Independent.Item Delivery:
If your familiar is adjacent to you, you can Command it to deliver an item. Instead of its normal 2 actions, your familiar Interacts to take an item you’re holding of light Bulk or less, then takes one move action, then finally Interacts to pass off the item to another willing creature. It can instead administer the item to the creature if it can do so with 1 action and has an appropriate type of item (such as alchemical elixir). If your familiar doesn’t reach the target this turn, it holds the item until commanded otherwise. Your familiar must have the manual dexterity ability to select this.
I think the problem is the specificity.
It's close to useless and it also doesn't make any sense that a Familiar could do all of that off of one command but not be able to sit on your shoulder,draw and feed you an elixir.
I just want to point out that there is little need to do this.
Due to advance alchemy's far reduced pool, the intent appears to be giving your party those items while the alchemist primarily uses quick alchemy.
The only advance alchemy items an alchemist would want to keep are alchemical tools and buff elixirs that last more than 10 minutes.
The sprawling history of contradictory familiar errata is just less relevant.
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Wouldn't the advantage of sending your familiar to deliver an item be that you have one action left to do something else?
If you deliver the item, then you 1-action take the item out, 1-action Stride to your ally, 1-action deliver the item.
If your familiar delivers it, then you 1-action take the item out, 1-action command the familiar, and still have 1 action left for whatever (Throw a bomb or whatever you want). Sure, your familiar is a move action away, but if you needed/wanted to do anything other than deliver the item that round, you have an action to do it.
I don't disagree that it's weird that your familiar can feed someone else an elixir, but it can't feed it to you, but just in terms of why you would want to use the ability, it does get you an extra action that round compared to delivering it yourself, and sometimes that matters.
I'll admit, I'm not super familiar with Alchemists currently, so maybe I'm missing something obvious. If I understand the new familiar ability correctly, it's not limited to Alchemists, and I can see my Witch making use of it in some situations.
I think most buffs should be distributed before the fight starts. The condition removals that need to be applied mid combat are probably better delivered by a Chirurgeons special abilities.
Tossing the Alchemical Item to your teamate is also an option.
How do versatile vials work for the Investigator alchemical sciences field? Do they still recover 2 every 10 minutes?
Similarly, what about the extra vial familiar ability? Is that one time use, or can it be recovered like all the others?
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At the risk of opening up another can of worms, is there any formal notion of how much bulk a familiar can carry? I would think they'd have the same bulk rules as other Tiny creatures, but their lacking a defined Str makes the bulk calculation awkward. Valet and Toolbearer both restrict them to dealing with items of Light bulk, but you can argue those are for more specific balance reasons.
This one's inspired by the annoyance of Toxicologist wanting to have a reusable melee weapon, but Double Brew wanting you to have both hands free. If you've got an Independent+Manual Dexterity familiar you can have them take or return your weapon for free 1/turn, but I'm wondering whether there are any limits on how heavy those weapons can be.
(The other options I can see are to invest in Str (expensive) for the free-hand Spiked Gauntlet, invest in Monk archetype (expensive) for the free-hand finesse Tekko-Kagi, or buy a weapon harness and strap a dagger to your wrist, dropping it for Double Brew then spending the action to regrasp it when you next need it (cheap but costs more actions).)
Wouldn't the advantage of sending your familiar to deliver an item be that you have one action left to do something else?
If you deliver the item, then you 1-action take the item out, 1-action Stride to your ally, 1-action deliver the item.
If your familiar delivers it, then you 1-action take the item out, 1-action command the familiar, and still have 1 action left for whatever (Throw a bomb or whatever you want). Sure, your familiar is a move action away, but if you needed/wanted to do anything other than deliver the item that round, you have an action to do it.
I don't disagree that it's weird that your familiar can feed someone else an elixir, but it can't feed it to you, but just in terms of why you would want to use the ability, it does get you an extra action that round compared to delivering it yourself, and sometimes that matters.
I'll admit, I'm not super familiar with Alchemists currently, so maybe I'm missing something obvious. If I understand the new familiar ability correctly, it's not limited to Alchemists, and I can see my Witch making use of it in some situations.
That's the basic value offer, as far as I can see. (Though you probably make the item with Quick Alchemy rather than drawing it.) You've then got 1 action left to do something else, e.g. make a 0 MAP strike or use a second item you made with Double Brew. You can then either leave your familiar sitting in the middle of nowhere, or spend an extra action on a later turn to call it back, so it's overall more flexible.
As I understand, the issue people have been debating is whether that's worth the investment of a class feat and the risk of getting your familiar attacked as it walks about. If your ally has a hand free, is able to act, and doesn't need the item's effect before the start of their next turn, you can just chuck the item to them for another 2+1 action split that needs no investment and doesn't stop working for a week because a purple worm ate it.
The condition removals that need to be applied mid combat are probably better delivered by a Chirurgeons special abilities.
The Chirurgeon doesn't have any ranged abilities to deliver general condition removal, afaik. Their field vial action just does chip healing and can reroll a Will save with feat investment, and Healing Bomb only works on Elixirs of Life, and since it's Additive you can't use the other Additive feats that let you add bonus condition removal to your healing elixirs.
How do versatile vials work for the Investigator alchemical sciences field? Do they still recover 2 every 10 minutes?
I've not been looking much at the new Investigator, but to my knowledge it's pretty much the same. They haven't been given regenerating vials, but they haven't been given the associated 10min duration limit either. No big surprise, since vial regeneration is such a powerful feature.
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The Chirurgeon doesn't have any ranged abilities to deliver general condition removal, afaik. Their field vial action just does chip healing and can reroll a Will save with feat investment, and Healing Bomb only works on Elixirs of Life, and since it's Additive you can't use the other Additive feats that let you add bonus condition removal to your healing elixirs.
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Due the Quick Alchemy's Create Consumable makes the duration of Elixir created using it working up to the start of your next turn you are still able to throw the Elixirs that you created using Invigorate Elixir with an Interact action to an ally. It maybe not the best action economy or option (because your ally needs a free-hand and will need to use an action to drink) and the safe distance to thrown is too short (10 fts using a DC 15) but it still an option with you don't want to enter into the frontline to heal someone condition.
I'm not saying that it's an incredible solution but its better than Treat Condition from Medic archetype that's requires to be adjacent and uses 2-actions too to heal way less conditions.
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The one thing I remember is that there's finally a Specific Homunculus familiar, that gets a lot of the alchemist specific abilities, plus you are fully aware of what it sees and hears up to 1500feet, it has your knowledge (basically everything you know it knows) and if you get dropped unconscious it has 2 actions to respond to you falling like you've commanded it (in your round I think)
My first reaction to hearing that there is a full Homunculus specific familiar is: "Then why TF did they force the alch familiar to bear the construct trait if that Homunculus can provide it?"
Then I realized this Homunculus is WHY they forced the trait; because it's a "free" familiar ability that can add to the specific familiar's budget requirement. With Paizo having refused to give the Alchemist access to Enhanced Familiar, this forced construct trait "was the only way."
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If it is indeed true that the Homunculus requires [construct] + every familiar ability slot:
This will mean that Paizo forced the nerf of the construct trait onto every Alchemist player for the sake of this new Homunculus option.
That this method of "squaring the circle" to add the Homunculus when Alchs only had 2 familiar ability budget was considered a good idea speaks volumes about Paizo's design outcomes.
The notion that players might not want the construct brand does not seem to have occurred to them. All they had to do was to make this "free trait" optional, but the Alchemist instead is handed a bizarre nerf and thematic shrinkage. Astounding.
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That's the basic value offer, as far as I can see. (Though you probably make the item with Quick Alchemy rather than drawing it.) You've then got 1 action left to do something else, e.g. make a 0 MAP strike or use a second item you made with Double Brew. You can then either leave your familiar sitting in the middle of nowhere, or spend an extra action on a later turn to call it back, so it's overall more flexible.
I guess what I’m getting at is that Familiar abilities are largely there for classes that get familiars. This isn’t an Alchemist specific ability (unless I’m misunderstanding things). So, it shouldn’t be judged solely on whether or not it solves everything for the Alchemist. As a Witch, I might be regularly sending my familiar out anyway. I could have it deliver a healing potion to a downed opponent, and then trigger its ability with a Hex. Or I might need to both deliver an item and sustain a spell.
Alchemists having other ways to do their thing is fine. And maybe this isn’t worth the investment for them. It doesn’t mean that the Familiar ability is useless for everyone or that Paizo made some mistake with the way they constructed it.
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Construct trait is not a "nerf".
While you cannot give them elixirs of health, you can Quick Repair them, and they get a host of immunities as well.
You may not like it, but it isn't a nerf.
It's instant death at 0 HP if fully applied, vs dying and wounded values that apply to PCs, normal familiars, and animal companions.
Construct trait is not a "nerf".
While you cannot give them elixirs of health, you can Quick Repair them, and they get a host of immunities as well.
You may not like it, but it isn't a nerf.
As far as thematics go, I'd say it's 100% on brand for the alchemical familiar to be a Construct, and the only way before the remaster for the base familiar to be one was if it had 0 other abilities.
So in fact it majorly EXPANDS the available thematics for alchemical familiars rather than restricting them.
Quick Repair is a Skill Feat.
Repair requires a repair toolkit. I can say my Chiurgeons outright cannot afford to wear 3 toolkits at the same time.
Constructs are immune to ALL healing, which is really bad. The benefits of their other immunities only really matter when they specifically targeted by such effects, making them likely to never once help during a campaign.
The ability for low HP familiars to use the dying rules is essential for their viability in combat, especially with Alchemists having common access to Fast Healing elixirs. Construct insta-death reportedly removed in PC2. Size of the nerf reduced. If still healing-immune, then still cannot give HP to dying familiar, lol. Are constructs immune to medical first aid to stabilize?
The addition of an OPTION to make one's familiar a Homunculus or a construct would have expanded the themeing.
The FORCED change for all alchemist familiars to become constructs is a big thematic restriction.
Your repeated contrarian "no, it's good actually" stance is becoming more transparent with each repetition.
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Look, I'm eager and excited to try out the new Alchemist. There are enough positive core changes, like all infused getting scaling DCs, that the good could outweigh the bad.
But I have to call a spade a spade. It helps no one and nothing to knee-jerk defend every little change.
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I guess what I’m getting at is that Familiar abilities are largely there for classes that get familiars. This isn’t an Alchemist specific ability (unless I’m misunderstanding things). So, it shouldn’t be judged solely on whether or not it solves everything for the Alchemist. As a Witch, I might be regularly sending my familiar out anyway. I could have it deliver a healing potion to a downed opponent, and then trigger its ability with a Hex. Or I might need to both deliver an item and sustain a spell.
Alchemists having other ways to do their thing is fine. And maybe this isn’t worth the investment for them. It doesn’t mean that the Familiar ability is useless for everyone or that Paizo made some mistake with the way they constructed it.
The catch is that Paizo could have made a more generically useful familiar ability that lacks the hyper-niche 3:2 "bonus action" of a Command --> Take + Move + Feed/Deliver.
Everyone would benefit more from a general ability like "Cork Popper" that enables familiars to Activate potions & elixirs, because it would still enable that niche moment while also being usable far more often.
A familiar that can fly/lurk at the perimeter of a fight while holding 2 elixirs, ready to swoop in for a Command: Move + Feed is already far more appealing with just that one "item must be in the master's hand" requirement crossed out.
It's the same w/ Valet and why I recommend alchs take Manual Dex + Independent instead. By being stuck as a contextual action, Valet is not compatible with other abilities like Independent.
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That's the basic value offer, as far as I can see. (Though you probably make the item with Quick Alchemy rather than drawing it.) You've then got 1 action left to do something else, e.g. make a 0 MAP strike or use a second item you made with Double Brew. You can then either leave your familiar sitting in the middle of nowhere, or spend an extra action on a later turn to call it back, so it's overall more flexible.I guess what I’m getting at is that Familiar abilities are largely there for classes that get familiars. This isn’t an Alchemist specific ability (unless I’m misunderstanding things). So, it shouldn’t be judged solely on whether or not it solves everything for the Alchemist. As a Witch, I might be regularly sending my familiar out anyway. I could have it deliver a healing potion to a downed opponent, and then trigger its ability with a Hex. Or I might need to both deliver an item and sustain a spell.
Alchemists having other ways to do their thing is fine. And maybe this isn’t worth the investment for them. It doesn’t mean that the Familiar ability is useless for everyone or that Paizo made some mistake with the way they constructed it.
I mean, there were always abilities that were not universal.
Lab Assistant only worked for alchemy stuff, spellcasting familiar and extra cantrips and extra slots only worked for spellcasters, and etc.
Sure, but this isn’t one of those. Or if it is, then it’s for classes other than Alchemist. What the issue really seems to be is that they didn’t reverse the ruling about Familiars being able to feed an Alchemist an item, or reload a crossbow. And that is disappointing. Looking at this as though it was meant to fix everything wrong with Alchemists and their interactions with their Familiars is a mistake. It does what it does, which lets you do slightly more one round than you could otherwise. It’s not the best Familiar ability. It’s not the worst. And maybe it’s not worth it for most Alchemists, since they have to spend extra resources getting a familiar in the first place.
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It's instant death at 0 HP if fully applied, vs dying and wounded values that apply to PCs, normal familiars, and animal companions.Construct trait is not a "nerf".
While you cannot give them elixirs of health, you can Quick Repair them, and they get a host of immunities as well.
You may not like it, but it isn't a nerf.
The remastered Construct trait is now flavour text, with nothing about being destroyed at 0 HP. That text is instead in Getting Knocked Out, which is in the same paragraph as talking about how most creatures die at 0 HP, and immediately followed by a paragraph about how the rules for PCs and their companions are different. So they won't instantly die, and go through the PC dying process as normal.
That said, the complaint about healing immunity is real. That takes out pretty much everything a party normally has to heal downed members, except for Administer First Aid to stabilise the familiar's dying condition. If you want to be mean, most "repair" effects also target objects only, and your familiar isn't an object. There may be some specific rules about Repairing constructs, though I haven't seen it, and it seems obvious there should be some option beyond letting it recover naturally through rest.
Otherwise, the plethora of immunities are nice, if you play in a way that puts familiars at risk. It does mess with the flavour choice players had previously though, and I don't think it would've hurt to make it optional.
I guess what I’m getting at is that Familiar abilities are largely there for classes that get familiars. This isn’t an Alchemist specific ability (unless I’m misunderstanding things). So, it shouldn’t be judged solely on whether or not it solves everything for the Alchemist. As a Witch, I might be regularly sending my familiar out anyway. I could have it deliver a healing potion to a downed opponent, and then trigger its ability with a Hex. Or I might need to both deliver an item and sustain a spell.
Alchemists having other ways to do their thing is fine. And maybe this isn’t worth the investment for them. It doesn’t mean that the Familiar ability is useless for everyone or that Paizo made some mistake with the way they constructed it.
For sure, it's a broader ability, and (presumably) anyone with a familiar can take it, and everyone can judge based on their needs and use cases. Since this is a thread about Alchemists, though, I don't think it's unreasonable for people here to judge it specifically from the Alchemist's perspective.
Especially since said extra ability is a thousand times more thematic than "being forced" to have an animal familiar if I am an alchemist.
Base concepts can be papered over thematically, which is another way of saying that "flavor is free" idea.
You already could imagine your alch familiar as homuncular in nature, or you could imagine them as a magical animal. Now, you are forced to have a familiar that exists as pseudo-life construct.
You also seem to have oopsed a bit, as the old Feat:
You have used alchemy to create life, a simple creature formed from alchemical materials, reagents, and a bit of your own blood. This alchemical familiar appears to be a small creature of flesh and blood, though it might have some unusual or distinguishing aspects depending on your creative process. Like other familiars, your alchemical familiar assists you in your laboratory and on adventures. The familiar uses your Intelligence modifier to determine its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers (see Familiars for more information).
The old alch familiar already primed its flavor text to be more thematic than an animal, without forcing the construct trait.
You keep forcing this false binary when that entire notion is what I'm trying to oppose here.
You cannot counter "Hey, they are forcing every salad to have croutons."
with: "Because I like my salads w/ croutons, this is better, actually. And as a matter of fact, you're wrong for trying to deny salads the opportunity to have croutons."
Because, no, your counter of being "forced" to use medicine/elixirs is outright untrue. You can add the construct trait to your familiar if you wish to do so. But now no one can take construct off.
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Removing the OPTION of the vanilla, while mandating the alch familiar have the specific spice of the construct, is 100% unambiguously a narrowing of theme.
You can add thematic flavor to anything so long as it does not cause conflict with mechanics.
But it is not possible to remove mechanical traits via flavor. Any player who does not want the construct trait has to get the GM on board with a homebrew rule change. (and render that PC incompatible w/ PFS play)
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I guess what I’m getting at is that Familiar abilities are largely there for classes that get familiars. This isn’t an Alchemist specific ability (unless I’m misunderstanding things). So, it shouldn’t be judged solely on whether or not it solves everything for the Alchemist. As a Witch, I might be regularly sending my familiar out anyway. I could have it deliver a healing potion to a downed opponent, and then trigger its ability with a Hex. Or I might need to both deliver an item and sustain a spell.
Alchemists having other ways to do their thing is fine. And maybe this isn’t worth the investment for them. It doesn’t mean that the Familiar ability is useless for everyone or that Paizo made some mistake with the way they constructed it.
The catch is that Paizo could have made a more generically useful familiar ability that lacks the hyper-niche 3:2 "bonus action" of a Command --> Take + Move + Feed/Deliver.
Everyone would benefit more from a general ability like "Cork Popper" that enables familiars to Activate potions & elixirs, because it would still enable that niche moment while also being usable far more often.
A familiar that can fly/lurk at the perimeter of a fight while holding 2 elixirs, ready to swoop in for a Command: Move + Feed is already far more appealing with just that one "item must be in the master's hand" requirement crossed out.
It's the same w/ Valet and why I recommend alchs take Manual Dex + Independent instead. By being stuck as a contextual action, Valet is not compatible with other abilities like Independent.
This is true, but also something they’ve been clear in the past they don’t want to do. This is what I mean. Item delivery is being judged based on what it’s not, instead of what it is. I get why it’s disappointing. I just don’t think it was meant to solve the things people want it to solve.
EDIT: It’s absolutely fair to be disappointed about the ability or to feel it’s a bad option for alchemists. Just pointing out that it doesn’t seem like it was meant to solve the issues people want it to solve.