Sustaining a spell


Advice


Cleric player here, I noticed Clerics at level 16 do not get Effortless Concentration, is there an item or something I can use in order to free action sustain a spell as a Cleric without having to spend an action to sustain.


No there isn't.

PF2 designers in general take care to avoid patch items that could allow to replace or supply a class feature/feat entirely.

You still can find some band-aid items to help the class to make some of its own mechanic a bit better like Shadow Signets that make attack spells a bit better for casters or Insight Coffees that makes Strategic Strikes a bit stronger but nothing that give and entire class feature/feat that your class lacks. These kind of things stays in the realm of feats yet there's no archetype/ancestry/heritage that gives Effortless Concentration.

So unfortunately if you want to make a divine caster that have Effortless Concentration you will need to play as Sorcerer, Summoner or Witch and get Cleric Archetype if you want to get some features from clerics but will be limited to things that doesn't requires Divine Font.


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You can also go Witch archetype and pick up Cackle.


The Captivator archetype gets you Effortless Captivation, which is Effortless Concentration at level 14, but only for illusion & enchantment spells.

The Spellmaster archetype has a Communal Sustain feat, which allows you to sustain a spell for an ally, so useful if you have a party Wizard with no good 3rd action.


Clerics would be too powerful with effortless concentration. I can understand why they didn't give them that ability even though I was disappointed.

Clerics are walking the fine line of too much power just by virtue of their heal font. A two action maxed out heal 4 to 6 times per day on top of their regular spell slots can get pretty insane for turning encounters trivial.

Then let them Effortless Concentration some of their summons or buff spells, be pretty nuts.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:

Clerics would be too powerful with effortless concentration. I can understand why they didn't give them that ability even though I was disappointed.

Clerics are walking the fine line of too much power just by virtue of their heal font. A two action maxed out heal 4 to 6 times per day on top of their regular spell slots can get pretty insane for turning encounters trivial.

Then let them Effortless Concentration some of their summons or buff spells, be pretty nuts.

I never really use any summons are they quite good? And which buffs would be excellent to sustain?


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The Total Package wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:

Clerics would be too powerful with effortless concentration. I can understand why they didn't give them that ability even though I was disappointed.

Clerics are walking the fine line of too much power just by virtue of their heal font. A two action maxed out heal 4 to 6 times per day on top of their regular spell slots can get pretty insane for turning encounters trivial.

Then let them Effortless Concentration some of their summons or buff spells, be pretty nuts.

I never really use any summons are they quite good? And which buffs would be excellent to sustain?

Most summons are not, but the divine list has the best summons. Don't get sucked into summon dragon unless something has changed with them for the better.

The reason divine is good is because you can summon celestials and other outsiders with spells, which means your summons extend your spellcasting and provide options you might not have as well as auras and effects that can buff or help you allies.

Let's say you summon something like a Horned Archon. This summon can transfer its hit points to heal people in your party. It can cast a few spells, has tongues, and can do some combat if you need it. And this isn't even one of your best summons.

You've got Ghaeles at high level. Chorals which can do bard songs. Various archons. Basically, sift the list for spells and abilities that you can use to boost your group or yourself. You can check the fiends and other types of outsiders as well. Divine list has a lot of useful summons as you gain levels. In my opinion, they have the best summons in the game.

Followed by occult and primal with Arcane bringing up the rear last I checked.

I also sometimes use summon elemental for flanking or to go into a blocked room to position and help when the walls are stone. Send in an earth elemental to walk through the stone wall to position for flanking or the stone ground. Use an air elemental for three dimensional fly flanking. Summons do have some uses, but direct damage in combat isn't it which is why the divine list has the best because they can get fliers or things that can dimension door to do the same thing as elementals, but spell-like abilities and other versatile abilities. Only Summon Fey has anything really close as far as I know, though Summon Undead might have a few rare gems like the Bone Croupier, which you get as well.

Sift your possible summons and find spells and abilities that will be useful with celestials, fiends, and the like.

I think that's one of the main reasons they kept Effortless Concentration off the cleric feat list. They have more good sustain spells on top of super healing. Having played a combat cleric myself, the ability to heal right through combat while still attacking is a pretty insanely powered ability in PF2.


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I just need to put a notice to help the people not becoming frustrated.

Summons are an excellent 3rd-action, they can flank, their strikes bonuses is around a martial MAP -5, they can use skills, depending from the summon type they can fly, have passive abilities, can cast spells and can use some useful monster only abilities. Rarely they will call the attention of enemy but this depends from the GM (yet if the GM targets the summon for some reason without it be an AoE or a multi-target ability this is already a win because means that the enemy wasting action attacking your summon instead of a real party member).

But summons are your 3rd action to help you to be more efficient. They are not there to fight for you. If you summon a creature with such intention you probably will have a pretty bad experience.

There are many complain about summon in the web and most of them are made by players that don't understand how the summons works in this game.

That said I agree with Deriven Firelion. Celestials are probably the best summons in the game, followed by faries and dragons. Depending from how permissive your GM is the summons can have more potential and flexibility. If your GM allows you to summon caster dragons they are pretty better than normal dragons for summoning, also if your GM allows to summon Elite and Weak version of summons (changing the level requirements to that summon in +1 or -1 respectively) the spell becomes more versatile and some creatures useful during more levels, if your GM allows to summon uncommon or rare creatures some summon spells like Summon Constructs becomes way better once that most of the constructs are uncommon.

The only summon spell that I really dislike is summon animals and summon plants. They are so meh that usually I prefer to summon another 3rd action spell like Flaming Sphere Floating Flame instead.


I wanted some feedback on the level 7 Kanya, as a summon with its two actions each turn what would you do with it? We are currently level 15 so this spell takes a level 6 slot. Mostly a bunch of melee combatants.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=2842


The Total Package wrote:

I wanted some feedback on the level 7 Kanya, as a summon with its two actions each turn what would you do with it? We are currently level 15 so this spell takes a level 6 slot. Mostly a bunch of melee combatants.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=2842

At the very least they can give Courageous anthem with +2 status bonus and then Uplifting Overture with about +3 (7 lvl, so about master in Performance?) circumstance bonus on crits (DC15 with +20 Performance check) to skill checks (Athletics for example). Already not bad at all. But then there's also Counter Performance as a reaction (focus points missing, but not a problem), 4R Clear mind, 4R Soothe, and 2R Invisibility. Not bad I think.


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Errenor wrote:
The Total Package wrote:

I wanted some feedback on the level 7 Kanya, as a summon with its two actions each turn what would you do with it? We are currently level 15 so this spell takes a level 6 slot. Mostly a bunch of melee combatants.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Monsters.aspx?ID=2842

At the very least they can give Courageous anthem with +2 status bonus and then Uplifting Overture with about +3 (7 lvl, so about master in Performance?) circumstance bonus on crits (DC15 with +20 Performance check) to skill checks (Athletics for example). Already not bad at all. But then there's also Counter Performance as a reaction (focus points missing, but not a problem), 4R Clear mind, 4R Soothe, and 2R Invisibility. Not bad I think.

Summons don't get reactions though, do they?


Also aren't you only allowed to have one bardic cantrip active at a time?


Summons are minions and minions do not have reactions unless some other ability gives them one.

As for Bards, any one Bard can only have one Composition spell active at a time. That applies to both Composition cantrips and Composition spells that do cost focus points.


Eoran wrote:
Summons are minions and minions do not have reactions unless some other ability gives them one.

Makes it so that using the Spellcasting ability to cast Blood Vendetta doesn't work.

But I don't like to bleed in the first place, so I'm not complaining.


shroudb wrote:
Summons don't get reactions though, do they?

Yep.

The Total Package wrote:
Also aren't you only allowed to have one bardic cantrip active at a time?

Composition spells, yes.

Forgot. Also thought Uplifting Overture is a normal cantrip for some reason.

With those corrections probably not stellar, but still very decent. People like normal bards, but this one gives +2.


+2 is a great single action, what could he do that's useful for the second action?


The Total Package wrote:
+2 is a great single action, what could he do that's useful for the second action?

Move somewhere safe to avoid getting one-shot by the enemy that is probably about 6 levels higher than it is.


Well ya but after you move, how about the next round etc is there anything he can do for that extra action that would make it more worth it? Certainly giving everyone a +2 to attack rolls in a melee heavy party is a very strong for one action.


Can the summon somehow give me an AC bonus by doing something like Providing me cover or something?


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Yes, a creature can provide lesser cover by being in an appropriate position. Though the summoned creature may need to be an appropriate size category (GM determines what size category that needs to be). A large enough summoned creature can provide standard cover.

Granted, that means that the summoned creature is going to be directly in harm's way...

For just providing cover as an ability, that requires a feat for Eidolons to do that for their Summoner. So I wouldn't give something like that to summoned creatures for free.


Are there any powerful items or anything that allows you to sustain a spell as a free action?


The Total Package wrote:
Are there any powerful items or anything that allows you to sustain a spell as a free action?

A lot of casters have 16 level feat which gives exactly that: Effortless Concentration [free-action]. As you see that's a very high-level ability (and mostly must-have feat). Items - don't know (but such things should have about this level if they could be frequently used). Witches sustain spells as free action from 1st level with Cackle, but it's a focus spell, so costs a focus point (and a hex so prevents casting other hexes this turn).


Does cackle extend the witches spell for the duration of the spell or just one round?


The Total Package wrote:
Does cackle extend the witches spell for the duration of the spell or just one round?

Which duration and which spell?

'Sustained' spells have hidden duration of 'until the end of your next turn'. And that is the exact thing that Sustain gives. So the question doesn't make much sense to me.


Errenor wrote:
The Total Package wrote:
Does cackle extend the witches spell for the duration of the spell or just one round?

Which duration and which spell?

'Sustained' spells have hidden duration of 'until the end of your next turn'. And that is the exact thing that Sustain gives. So the question doesn't make much sense to me.

Oh sorry I meant like for Roaring Applause for example, would it sustain that spell for multiple rounds?


No. For the cost of a focus point and your Hex for the round, you get a bog standard Sustain for a free action instead of the normal 1-action cost that Sustain has.

Well, almost bog standard. It is limited to only being able to Sustain a spell.


Wow that's not a very good focus spell than. Thank you for clarifying that. It would have been quite good if it was for the entirety of the spell but for one round I would definitely pass on it.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If you think about the pivotal moments of combat are usually the first 3-4 rounds then cackle giving you a sustain for no actions looks a bit better. You would use it on a round where you want to keep a spell going cast another spell but also need to move generally.


The Total Package wrote:
It would have been quite good if it was for the entirety of the spell but for one round I would definitely pass on it.

Again, 'sustained' spells like Roaring Applause don't have any other duration or entirety than 'until the end of your next turn'. It doesn't exist. It's only Sustain each turn and nothing else.

Lantern Lodge

The Total Package wrote:
Are there any powerful items or anything that allows you to sustain a spell as a free action?

Gnomes have Intuitive Illusions, a level 5 ancestry feat, which gives them a FREE sustain only usable with illusion spells. It does require that you take Illusion Sense at 1st level, so it's a two-feat chain.


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The Total Package wrote:
Wow that's not a very good focus spell than. Thank you for clarifying that. It would have been quite good if it was for the entirety of the spell but for one round I would definitely pass on it.

Having that cost is what makes it balanced. Otherwise it would be a must-pick for nearly every spellcaster to pick up Witch Dedication and Cackle.

A free action Sustain is still very powerful. Even with the focus point cost. Focus points are renewable.

Being able to Stride to position to effectively cast a 2-action line or cone AoE spell ... and be able to maintain a sustained duration spell... From as early as level 1. That's pretty good.


Or summon two minions at once, using the free sustain to have 3 actions left for the second summon.


Theaitetos wrote:
Or summon two minions at once, using the free sustain to have 3 actions left for the second summon.

That is true. It would be a more reasonable scenario if summoning creatures wasn't such a waste of actions and spell slots in the first place.

A better scenario might be to cast a Wall spell such as Wall of Force or Wall of Stone mid-battle after you already have a sustained spell active.

Silver Crusade

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Captain Zoom wrote:
The Total Package wrote:
Are there any powerful items or anything that allows you to sustain a spell as a free action?
Gnomes have Intuitive Illusions, a level 5 ancestry feat, which gives them a FREE sustain only usable with illusion spells. It does require that you take Illusion Sense at 1st level, so it's a two-feat chain.

Only useable once a day which SERIOUSLY reduces its effectiveness. But I have a strong personal bias against once a day effects since

1) I tend to forget that I have them
2) I tend to want to keep them until I REALLY REALLY need them.

Those combine to make once a day effects nearly useless to me (they only get used on those occassions where things have gone SERIOUSLY south and I'm frantically searching my character sheet for something to save my ass :-) :-)).


Theaitetos wrote:
Or summon two minions at once, using the free sustain to have 3 actions left for the second summon.

In what scenario would spending two high level slots to summon creatures be a good use of your spell power? Summons are not great.

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