In your experience playing the game what, in your opinion/observations, would qualify as too much healing in an adventuring party? Is it possible to have too much healing?
My current party, for example, is running through Age of Ashes, Vol. 2 and is currently 7th-level. We currently have:
- aiuvarin cleric, expert medicine, healing font, Battle Medicine, Continual Recovery, Robust Recovery, Unusual Treatment, Ward Medic, spare heal spells prepared, minor healing potion, heal scrolls x2, wand of heal
- aiuvarin ranger, no healing capabilities
- dwarf ranger, no healing capabilities
- elf druid, master medicine, Advanced First Aid, Assurance (medicine), Batte Medicine, Continual Recovery, healing plaster, a couple low-rank heals prepared, staff of healing
- gnome sorcerer, signature heal spell
- iruxi magus, expert medicine, Battle Medicine, Godless Healing
In nearly every encounter since Vol. 2 started, we've been routed and forced to regroup, recover, and return for a second round before being able to proceed.
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Having access to healing isn’t bad, but trying to use it to keep up with incoming damage eats into a party’s action economy fiercely, and taking away 3 actions from a powerful enemy can be a lot more important than giving an ally 3 actions if picking up weapons, standing, and eating a reactive strike is part of deal. Age of Ashes has some brutal encounter sites that pretty much have to be fought in multiple raids, even as some of them punish you brutally for doing so. Don’t feel bad about having to retreat frequently in that one, especially if the GM is adding enemies to those encounter sites to match up with your larger party.
IMO the mere cleric chassis is already "too much healing" because even in lower levels that is when you most demands heal (due the difference between damage and max HP is too short) but even with this I can't imagine a cleric with medicine, continual recovery and battle medice becoming without healing resource unless your party force the advancement really too much without resting.
Usually the healing font is enough to a cleric deal with the party in an encounter needs and continual recovery and ward medic to between encounters healing while the claric can save its spellslots and focus spells to do other things.
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So I think the core question has more to do with how much you're investing in healing, rather than how much total healing you offer. Depending on group composition, you can have a lot of healing with limited investment or limited healing even with a lot of investment.
For the group you described, frankly the investment doesn't actually seem that bad.
The magus could probably afford to retrain their medicine options, but a couple extra skill feats on a magus isn't going to change all that much anyways.
Your druid has a lot of things in Medicine, but again we're looking at largely skill feats, there might be a handful of more useful options if the healing isn't needed, but it's not a game changer.
Maybe your cleric is overpreparing heals in their main slots, given how much healing there is in the rest of the party? But even if they're literally just a healbot, you have three good damage martials and a sorcerer and a druid also.
Two rangers and a magus should be dropping enemies very quickly, even if all three of the casters are goofing off. So the circumstances you've suggested could be as much about what they're doing as anything else, or problems with the GM's adjustments for party size, or age of ashes jank, or some combination of the above.
The Heal spell is kinda genuinely one of the only things that will outright heal more per action than damage being taken.
In theory, use of the Heal spell is unique in that it adds more "time" in comparison to other forms of healing that only slow down the loss.
If you are loosing fights while high R Heal spells have not been cast, I've got no clue what's going on, as they can genuinely heal faster than PCs typically can die.
The flipside of that means that most defensive options, including low R heals, are only there to slow down how quickly your party falls, to buy a bit more time for your offense to drop your foes.
This is why MAP is the core of pf2e, it makes value/appeal of the primary means of doing damage vary based on how quickly you are attacking.
While a martial may have an easy choice to use Battle Medicine when at MAP 10, a martial at MAP 0 really needs to think before spending a whole turn without attacking once.
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My guess is that PCs are choosing to cast low rank spells that do not scale well, or to generally use low impact defensive actions instead of attacking. I myself have seen "bad" usage of turns when a caster decides to throw a R2 (or even a R1!) Heal spell instead of using a damage cantrip, ect. There's definitely some player psychology stuff going on in there, though I lack enough info to do anything more than vaguely gesture at that can of worms.
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My recommendation is to adapt to your party's heal-heavy style and seek out more damage / offense.
Thanks to a Wood Kin in SoT, I've learned just how much the value of different options can vary wildly based on party comp, and how it affects the expected turn count of a fight. I've never thrown so many acid flasks.
In specific, I would recommend yall take a look at more things like persistent damage, sustain damage spells, and the generally ignored options that have long effect durations.
Every "__ for 1 minute" effect gains a great deal from a longer fight. Sickened becomes better and better compared against your Frightened, Clumsy, ect.
Did you know? You can get a Wounding property rune that inflicts 1d6 persistent bleed every hit for 160 gp cheaper than your standard 1d6 elemental rune!
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It's too much healing when it interferes with one's offense.
There's nothing listed stopping all of your party from participating in damaging, debuffing, whatnot your enemies. So maybe they're devoting too many actions to it? Or as mentioned, it's a notably difficult AP with some TPK spikes that hey, maybe this healing will get you through even if you have to retreat (something which while many players don't expect, is normal enough at my tables I address it in session zero).
What sort of sorcerer is it?
That one's mine so, the weird kind. ;)
What sort of sorcerer is it?The weird kind. ;)
LOL I don't know what the link is to, but it's asking for me to log into my Microsoft account so I'll never know what it is since I'm not doing that. :P
LOL I don't know what the link is to, but it's asking for me to log into my Microsoft account so I'll never know what it is since I'm not doing that. :PWhat sort of sorcerer is it?The weird kind. ;)
That's odd. You shouldn't need to sign in. Try the link again, or perhaps refreshing the page.
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LOL I don't know what the link is to, but it's asking for me to log into my Microsoft account so I'll never know what it is since I'm not doing that. :PWhat sort of sorcerer is it?The weird kind. ;)
I first read that as asking to log into your Minecraft account and that made it a lot funnier.
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Anyway, I agree with Castilliano. Too much healing on a character is when the character has nothing better than healing to contribute to a battle with.
Damage isn't king either. Enemies can generally out-damage the party. The party needs to be able to neutralize the enemy's effectiveness as a whole. Defeat the enemy first, then kill it if needed. Attacking actions and stats of an enemy is as important as attacking HP.
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- aiuvarin cleric, expert medicine, healing font, Battle Medicine, Continual Recovery, Robust Recovery, Unusual Treatment, Ward Medic, spare heal spells prepared, minor healing potion, heal scrolls x2, wand of heal
- aiuvarin ranger, no healing capabilities
- dwarf ranger, no healing capabilities
- elf druid, master medicine, Advanced First Aid, Assurance (medicine), Batte Medicine, Continual Recovery, healing plaster, a couple low-rank heals prepared, staff of healing
- gnome sorcerer, signature heal spell
- iruxi magus, expert medicine, Battle Medicine, Godless Healing
My gut reaction: Too few damage.
The Cleric preparing Heals in spell slots clearly indicates low damage. I know your point of view on casters so I assume your Sorcerer is not a damage dealer. Magus is hard to play and can lead to low damage output. Rangers can be good damage dealers, depending on their focus. But if one is an archer that's less damage at low level. Druid can fill multiple roles, not all of them being damage.The result is obviously a massive need of healing to compensate.
My ideal healing is 1 character with access to 2 top rank Heals and a secondary healer with access to either Heal, Soothe or the Medic Archetype. Above that you quickly have diminishing returns (it's never bad to have more healing as long as it's not costing much).
I add the precision that my roster contains a Divine Sorcerer, 2 Oracles, 3 Alchemists including 2 Chirurgeons, 1 Divine Summoner, 1 Primal Witch, 1 Psychic and 1 Paladin. So half the time i'm the main healer of the parties I play in and I rarely cast my 2 Heals in an adventuring day (unless I face undeads).
First, I want to say that is a great character sheet. Thank you for sharing.
On topic, my first reaction was the same as Bidi. I wonder if there is enough damage. I don't think more healing is bad, as long as you keep resources up for actually winning encounters.
But, having run AoA, I would agree with others that knowing when to retreat is never a bad thing.
First, I want to say that is a great character sheet. Thank you for sharing.
I'm glad you like it! If you'd like to see more, I've got about a hundred of them in my character gallery (look for the master link in the first post of the discussion thread).
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Our AoA party consisted of:
- sword and board fighter, pretty sturdy
- thief rogue, big damage output, lot of debilitation and opportune backstab. He also had all the healing skill feats and decent wisdom.
- monk, very tanky, very mobile, very focused on maneuvering around enemies and pincer tactics
- my cloistered cleric of Cernunnos with rogue archetype, using longbow and spells, also heavy use of Intimidation. Also had the healing skill feats.
I pretty much never prepared additional Heal spells. The three melee characters could usually put a lot of pressure on enemies, and I leveraged spells to either blast crowds, or Heroism to buff the others when taking on solo bosses with high defenses.
Overall we were a very "cult of the offensive" party, and it worked really well. Even so, the AP just has L+4 enemies here and there and nothing can make that not suck.
So overall our healing strategy came down to:
- the cleric avoids melee. My rogue dedication gave me Mobility and Deny Advantage which were helpful
- the cleric leverages Divine Font. In a tough fight we may use 1-2 Heal spells, but in many fights we don't use them at all.
- we always heal up full in between fights
- the fighter uses very sturdy shields and quick repair to be a damage sponge
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From my experience playing PFS for several years, and spending far too much time perusing these boards, what decides encounters in PF2 is one of the sides losing significant encounter budget.
Because it definitely alters the difficulty of the fight.
A side loses significant encounter budget mostly by losing a member.
Healing helps your side not losing significant encounter budget.
But getting rid of an opponent helps you win.
So, it's a balance to strike, but I definitely think investing in healing beyond the minimum at the expense of investing in damage and other ways of getting rid of an opponent is an extremely risky strategy.
How's your defenses? At the end of the day, doing significant amounts of healing is action intensive, which reduces your offense and makes fights longer. You want some healing so you can keep people standing and get their actions doing things to help you win, but too much time spent healing indicates another problem.
This is what makes high AC, shields, and things like Champion Reactions so useful: they're comparatively low action cost things that prevent damage. Prevented damage doesn't need to be healed, freeing up folks for offense.
This is the main problem my Kingmaker group has: we're relatively lacking in defensive options and heavy armor users in general. Combine that with what feels like a lot of severe encounters, and we run into people being blasted down and needing healing a LOT. Like, someone earlier said that Cleric divine font alone is too much healing, but its not uncommon for us to need to use 3 of these in one fight and run out entirely pretty frequently.
Meanwhile I'm also in a Shadows at Sundown game with a Paladin and a Thaumaturge with Redeemer Archetype, and combined with that adventure having more encounters a day (and thus what feels like fewer severe ones), we can get through things with significantly less healing in the party. (We also have a trip specialist and if we can land a trip on an enemy, it's just doing less offense as it either has to spend an action standing up or it's taking -2.)
Generally speaking if one person is built as a "healer" (who can hopefully also do other stuff) with healing spells/battle medicine/continual recovery, you generally only need enough healing elsewhere to get that person up if they get targeted. But how much you need will vary significantly based on how good our AC is and how good you are at preventing damage.
One other consideration, stated in the Full Party Optimization thread, is that attempting to fight against an opponent's strength (e.g., getting in a melee brute's face and going blow for blow) in PF2 makes winning harder. Unlike in PF1, the monster or NPC will be likely hit harder and have more staying power than even a "max. optimized" PC; what PF2 really rewards is the party changing their tactics each encounter so that the monster/NPC can't use their best attack sequence (for the melee brute, use hit and run ranged or spell attacks/"kiting;" for a ranged specialist, use debuffs to slow them down and buffs to protect the PC melee specialists until they can smack them face to face; etc.).
This change in mindset is probably the most difficult part of transitioning to PF2 from 3.x/PF1 and other systems where the PCs are typically able to overpower foes straight up.
How's your defenses?
22 - aiuvarin cleric
24 - aiuvarin ranger24 - dwarf ranger
25 - elf druid*
22 - gnome sorcerer
25 - iruxi magus*
* Carries a shield, can cast shield, or possesses a similar defensive ability or item.
LOL I don't know what the link is to, but it's asking for me to log into my Microsoft account so I'll never know what it is since I'm not doing that. :PWhat sort of sorcerer is it?The weird kind. ;)
Gnome Fey Primal Sorcerer with a squirrel familiar.
Main thing is the spells. Suggestion and Stinking cloud seem like the main offensive spells.
Are you getting much mileage out of suggestion?
In your experience playing the game what, in your opinion/observations, would qualify as too much healing in an adventuring party? Is it possible to have too much healing?
No. Only in the context of opportunity cost. What did you give up to take the healing? Can you afford to have a free hand to use Battle Medicine? What spell did you miss out on, in order to take another Heal.
I think the bigger issue is when you have a lot of healing but don't have enough reactive strikes, control, and raw damage.
Agreed.
It is possible to have too little damage output. In a party of 6 you have 1 offensive striker - the Magus. But you have two rangers, and 2 primal casters. What spells do you use for control?
Are you getting much mileage out of suggestion?
I don't believe I've even cast stinking cloud or suggestion yet. Haven't had much opportunity.
Primal Innate Spells DC 25; Cantrips (4th) light
Fey Bloodline Spells DC 25; 4th (2 Focus Points) faerie dust, fey disappearance
My staples so far have been my cantrips*, (particularly ray of frost, which helps me stay well clear of the danger), summon animal, and faerie dust + uncontrollable laughter.
Sometimes it seems like you have to twist the healing focused cleric's arm to dole out some healing before anyone drops. She instead casts guidance and forbidding ward a lot. Occasionally she makes Strikes. Frequently forgets her own feats and abilities.
Magus and half-elf ranger do pretty well, closing to melee and ripping things up. Magus seems to prefer electricity spells, such as shocking grasp and thunderstrike while the Ranger is a formidable switch hitter with his trident (which he specializes at using from long range).
The dwarven ranger is an archer, so isn't as much of a bruiser as the others, but still outputs reliable damage. Both rangers have animal companions which join the fight a little more than half the time.
The druid enjoys blasting with fireball and lightning bolt, but she's new to the game and so doesn't know any rules yet.
Except for the half-elf ranger and the druid, everyone is a veteran 1st-edition player, and are very much still stuck in the "in it for themselves " mindset. Despite my encouragement, I rarely see debuffs such as Trip or Demoralize, or Recall Knowledge checks, being used.
Everyone is quick to go on the defensive or run away after a big hit (they're just not used to getting hit so hard and so often), so backliners are often exposed. And why wouldn't they run, when they can't rely on all that healing only inconsistently getting dolled out?
The GM barely understands enough to run the game since he's easily distracted (to the point of upsetting whoever's turn it happens to be), and because he has long hiatuses between exposures to the game. He frequently gets his 1st- and 2nd-edition rules mixed up.
The half-elf ranger player is picking up the rules at a lightning pace and will soon rival me in base rules Knowledge.
I hope that helps.
i Would say Optimal everyone in the party should have atleast a "one off" Combat heal, like Healing gloves or Battle Medicine.
But you can easily deal with only 1 or 2 having it. it just opens up for some unluck if you healers are the once getting downed in a bad situation.
So at level 4 everyone thats not a monk(Hand wraps are same slot) should get Healers gloves and your party is set.
And if you feel uneasy still add some healing potions on all persons for emergency's when the gloves are already used.
and for out of combat healing a single person with Full investment in Medicine is all you need.
Anything more then that id say is wasted resources that is better spent on downing the enemy faster, often resulting in more "Healing" in the terms of less damage taken.
This method have worked for my groups in several campaigns now with 0 deaths
Including 3 longer: Abomination Vault, Strength of the Thousands and a home-brew campaign
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I find Healer's Gloves to be the most overrated item in the game. I've seen so many characters with it but I'm still waiting to see it used...
Nothing gets close to Heal when you absolutely need healing. There are a few alternate abilities, but Healer's Gloves are none of them. No (or close to no) healing is definitely not the best amount of healing.
As the experienced player in a group of new to PF2 players I would recommend that you encourage team work by demonstrating it. IE Flank, buff, spotlight enemies, restrict enemy movement.
Zarzuket seems like a lot of fun, but he is more of a loner than part of a team. He is designed to harass and frustrate the enemy and escape, rather than do anything directly impactful. Synergy wise, it is hard to see things that he can do to help the rest of the group.
What could Zarzuket do?
Shock Wave is a save or knock prone which can help set them up for your martials to attack.
Laughing Fit is effective at slowing an enemy, do the players know to move away from a laughing opponent and concentrate on other enemies?
Both Bon Mot and Faerie Dust reduce will saving throws. Which helps no one in your group apart from Zarzuket. Any chance he can convince the Cleric to take Calm Emotions (rank 4) and Fear?
Honestly it sounds like you just have a new party.
My sorcerer was added in 'round level 4 after my monk died. The half-elf ranger and the druid are new (both to the campaign and to the world of TTRPGs), having been added at the tail end of level 6. Everyone else started at level 1 and has at least a dozen 2e sessions under their belts, albeit spread out over several years, which makes it harder for them to not default to their D&D and PF1e habits, which were ingrained into them over decades.
As the experienced player in a group of new to PF2 players I would recommend that you encourage team work by demonstrating it. IE Flank, buff, spotlight enemies, restrict enemy movement.
I've been trying, but any lessons taught seem to be forgotten by the time we can get our next session in two months later.
Zarzuket seems like a lot of fun, but he is more of a loner than part of a team. He is designed to harass and frustrate the enemy and escape, rather than do anything directly impactful. Synergy wise, it is hard to see things that he can do to help the rest of the group.
That wasn't my intent, but I think it an accurate observation.
What could Zarzuket do?
Shock Wave is a save or knock prone which can help set them up for your martials to attack.
That's precisely why I took it. That and the image of a little gnome causing not so little earthquakes amused me.
Laughing Fit is effective at slowing an enemy, do the players know to move away from a laughing opponent and concentrate on other enemies?
I typically use it against bosses, who always save, so it's mostly been used as a reaction mitigator.
Both Bon Mot and Faerie Dust reduce will saving throws. Which helps no one in your group apart from Zarzuket. Any chance he can convince the Cleric to take Calm Emotions (rank 4) and Fear?
Perhaps. I think there's one fear spell in the party, though I've never seen it cast.
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Unlike Gortle, in a party of beginners, I'd carry. You can't completely count on beginners to save the day, so you need to be able to do it on your own. And, as the whole discussion shows, they clearly lack damage so it seems like the obvious thing to bring to the party.
And considering that Primal Sorcerers are among the top damage dealers of the game, it shouldn't be hard.
I find Healer's Gloves to be the most overrated item in the game. I've seen so many characters with it but I'm still waiting to see it used...
Nothing gets close to Heal when you absolutely need healing. There are a few alternate abilities, but Healer's Gloves are none of them. No (or close to no) healing is definitely not the best amount of healing.
I have activated them a few times, usually in a situation where I just used Battle Medicine on someone so I'm already next to them to give them a bit more oomph.
But lets be honest: the real advantage of Healer's Gloves is that they give +1 to Medicine all the time as opposed to the expanded toolkit's limited options.
Here's the rest of the party for anyone who enjoys this stuff enough to analyze things further.
I probably would have shared them sooner, but they were all still in the process of getting leveled up at the time (even now, I think the cleric still needs to finish preparing some of her spells).
Though I'd like to keep this thread on the topic of healing balance, I don't mind you helping me to help them either.
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I agree with Calliope - there's a time and place for cantrips, but it's not as your Plan A, not at later levels when you have multiple ranks of spells per day.
Consider a few things:
- cantrips tend to scale at 1d4 per rank
- spells from slots tend to scale at 2d6 per rank
- cantrips got a bit weaker in the remaster, but some spells got a bit more powerful
- you gain more slots as you level up
From this I conclude that by level 5 or so, the plan should be to start combat by using a spell from a slot, intended to shift the odds in the combat. It can be a blast, buff, debuff or piece of battlefield control, depending on how the situation looks. But the earlier I do it, the more rounds I earn "compound interest" from the advantage I create.
The aim should basically be to try to have a lot of impact early on, and switch to cantrips for cleanup when the balance of the battle has swung to the advantage of the PCs.
...there's a time and place for cantrips, but it's not as your Plan A, not at later levels when you have multiple ranks of spells per day.
Ray of frost is one of my longest range spells, and so becomes a natural opener for anything more than 30 feet away.
I can't much help it if we keep having encounters in wide open spaces, or fighting monsters that fly and are smart enough to end their turns outside close range.
We keep encountering single monsters too, so it can be hard to justify wasting high end slots on flashy area effects, especially when they're just going to slide right off. At least with my wide variety of elemental cantrips we can quickly determine its elemental weaknesses while hurting it. If we find a weakness, then we can unload the big guns.
(And yes, I know there's Recall Knowledge, but you don't always succeed or get a complete picture.)
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You have Thunderstrike in the Primal spell list. Electricity meets extremely few resistances. And it does serious damage at level 3 or 4.
You have Thunderstrike in the Primal spell list. Electricity meets extremely few resistances. And it does serious damage at level 3 or 4.
The vrock that nearly wiped us all out last encounter (when we were still 6th) might have had a thing or two to say about that.
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Here's the rest of the party for anyone who enjoys this stuff enough to analyze things further.
Daruk Ebonarrow, dwarf ranger
Eillien, elf druid
Rassh, iruxi magus
Ryan Helcan, aiuvarin ranger
Yulia Nikiforov, aiuvarin cleric
Zarzuket, gnome sorcerer I probably would have shared them sooner, but they were all still in the process of getting leveled up at the time (even now, I think the cleric still needs to finish preparing some of her spells).
Though I'd like to keep this thread on the topic of healing balance, I don't mind you helping me to help them either.
Yes you definitely have too much healing. But the real problem is no party synergy.
You have a well designed party of role players. Everyone has taken lower damage options. Which is fine but your group is very much under powered, and the GM should respond by keeping the encounters easy and let everyone have fun with their characters.
Or if the group wants to play competitively then help them. But don't keep throwing long range encounters at them that they aren't capable of handling.
Your Cleric has far too many utility spells and not enough spells that do something useful against the enemy. She should take Blesss rank 1, Clear Mind or Restoration rank 2,Fear rank 3, Calm rank 4, and Divine Wrath rank 4 . Staff of Providence not a Staff of Healing. Spiritual Weapon is just duplication if you have a bow.
The Magus has 2 critical problems: First he needs a better cantrip with an attack roll. Acid Splash is Ok but it is really low on damage. Take one of Telekinetic Projectile, Needle Darts or Gouging Claw. Second he has no melee allies to flank with. A melee Magus needs to be supported. He needs allies to spend actions to asist him so the he can get the damage out.
Both your Rangers are balanced and short range. They are low on melee damage, and aren't long range either.
Your Druid is a balanced generalist, but they are the most effective character in the group.
Zarzuket should also consider Wall of Shrubs for cover in those long range fights and Albatross Curse from Howl of the Wild. (I'm trying to stay on theme rather than turning him into a blaster)
Wouldn't wall of shrubs also provide cover to the enemy?
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You have Thunderstrike in the Primal spell list. Electricity meets extremely few resistances. And it does serious damage at level 3 or 4.The vrock that nearly wiped us all out last encounter (when we were still 6th) might have had a thing or two to say about that.
For Fiends, there's Searing Light.
Anyway, considering your spell choice, I hardly think I'd convince you to switch to a more offensive spell list.
But when looking at the party, I don't see many damage dealer. The Flurry Ranger is dex based and as such a rather poor damage dealer, your Precision Ranger is strangely built (one handed weapon, no Twin Takedown/Hunted Shot, nothing in left hand) so I don't expect much damage from them, the Cleric is not built for violence (Searing Light and that's all), your Gnome doesn't deal damage at all (not a single top level damaging spell) and the Magus should be a nice damage dealer but Magus is hard to play (considering the abnormal number of weapons on the Magus, maybe the player is struggling with it). Only the Druid is built quite optimally for damage.
And on top of that, you don't have excellent defenses (no Champion, Monk, Barbarian or Fighter, no heavy armor). So you take time to kill enemies and have nothing to soak damage but healing. And using actions to heal prevent you from using these actions to kill. So I'm not surprised you need a crazy amount of healing, your fights must be endless slug fests.
Wouldn't wall of shrubs also provide cover to the enemy?
You can lean over it then you have lesser cover and your enemy will have none.
Or you can pop up, shoot, then take cover again.Or you can just hit them with Frost Bite (fortitude save) and Take Cover.
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I find Healer's Gloves to be the most overrated item in the game. I've seen so many characters with it but I'm still waiting to see it used...
Nothing gets close to Heal when you absolutely need healing. There are a few alternate abilities, but Healer's Gloves are none of them. No (or close to no) healing is definitely not the best amount of healing.
I always buy at least 2 sets when I can for any of my PFS characters. Just in case. When I can afford it of course.
I even used them a few times in dire circumstances. Their action economy is great for an item IMO.
Wouldn't wall of shrubs also provide cover to the enemy?You can lean over it then you have lesser cover and your enemy will have none.
Or you can pop up, shoot, then take cover again.
Or you can just hit them with Frost Bite (fortitude save) and Take Cover.
So I should only cast the 1st-rank version then?
...your Precision Ranger is strangely built (one handed weapon, no Twin Takedown/Hunted Shot, nothing in left hand) so I don't expect much damage from them...
I'm surprised to read this, as we were rather proud of that one. He's an amazing switch hitter with good range, his free hand gives him tons of versatility with his actions, and he is one of the few characters who seems to care about what kinds of enemies we are fighting and what spells they are casting.
Why would he take Twin Takedown when he only gets Precision once per round? I understand that to be more geared toward Flurry rangers. And why would he take Hunted Shot when it doesn't apply to his trident?
I know he's been avoiding taking the same feats as the dwarf, so there's that as well.
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Why would he take Twin Takedown when he only gets Precision once per round?
First, because you don't always hit with your first attack. Second, because even if you hit you still have a second attack, at a lowest amount of damage but still a second attack.
And what do you lose? Well, nothing, as you can always drop your second weapon if you need your hand.Overall, his build is easy to optimize without losing anything. Precision and Flurry Rangers should all take Twin Takedown or Hunted Shot, these feats are meant to repay the very high cost of having to Hunt Prey nearly every turn. Currently, his Ranger is underoptimized and, as Ranger class is not a high damage dealer, his character ends up as a subpar damage dealer.
I suppose I could talk to him about swapping out Quickdraw for Twin Takedown and making more use of that dagger he totes around.
A while back he asked me if it would be more beneficial to melee with his dagger in one hand and his trident in the other. I responded with "No. With the exception of having the option to deal slashing damage, a dagger is inferior to your trident (in combat) in every way."
In hindsight, he may have been eyeballing Twin Takedown, something that didn't occur to me at the time.
Ok, I can try and help the Magus but I have a few questions. Remaster or legacy? FA variant?
Remaster, with Legacy options permitted. No Free Archetypes or other intentional optional rules or house rules.
Next for cantrips ignition, gouging claw and telekinetic throw should be his go-to's as they are all D6. As a laughing shadow he probably shouldn't be in chainmail and he definitely should have someone to flank with unless he has a way to reliably make an opponent off-guard. Expansive spellstrike is amazing on starlit span and twisting tree Magi but not so good for everyone else as you can subject yourself and your party to damage. That's a start
What's wrong with chainmail?
He started out as a fighter, decided he didn't like it, then converted to magus with the GM's blessing. Some of his decisions, like the armor, might be holdovers from his previous build.
I'll be sure to pass your spell suggestions along. Thanks.