There was another thread not too long ago about Will-o-wisp's and how annoying they are to fight against. It may have even been regarding this same encounter.
They do have the Air trait, so a level 3 Air Kineticist could Extract Elements against it. For what that is worth.
Other than that, yes there are some enemy vs PC match-ups that are really harsh to the player. Houserule if/as needed to make the game enjoyable.
Yes Wisps are a problem.
I allow Weapon Infusion + Elemental Blast to count as a Strike and not an Impulse.
That patches most of it. But it is a house rule.
Extract Elements is still an Impulse, so it would presumably be covered under the rule I quoted above, making the will o' wisp immune to the entire effect in the first place. The resistance-ignoring effect it provides pretty clearly applies specifically to immunities or resistances to particular damage types, which is not what the will o' wisp has. It's not that the will o' wisp is immune to the damage from your spells by virtue of being an Air creature (which is the kind of immunity common to elementals that Extract Element is supposed to beat); it's just immune to the entire effect right from the word "go."
An interesting exercise for you: What would you like the rules to be? What would be fair and balanced and allow the Kineticist character to participate effectively in the battle?
I think the issue of creatures having hard rules like W o Wisps really is a problem of pf2e's encounter design, not monster design.
The issue is that when players talk about fighting W o Wisps, the expectation is that ALL of the foes of that fight are that one monster. That normal is horrendous. So much of the system (and AP play experience) is kneecapped by how many encounters are ~4 indistinguishable clones VS the party.
If wisps were normal to see in a mixed foe group, the issue would nearly vanish as the party quickly scrambles to match with their appropriate targets, while the foes are trying to do the same, wisps bee-lining for the caster that's trying to avoid them. That's genuinely great. Though, if I had a magic wand, I might replace wisp immunity for "auto crit succeeds any spell save roll"; pf2e makes it too painful for casters to swing Strikes via accuracy numbers, *and* weapons need to be runed before use.
Wisps aside, monsters designed more as single encounters are for sure an issue when such inflexibility is at play (hello, voidglutton), and party vs 1 foe encounters are NOT friendly to pf2e's math to begin with.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The general conclusion by the designers appears to be "that was a mistake, and we'll do it differently now." In particular, the golem-replacements no longer do the "I am immune to magical everything" that golems did.
Personally, i'd figure that it's houserule-bait. Ideally you wont' use will-o-wisps all that many times in a campaign anyway, so it should be a temporary houserule based on the needs of the moment. What role is the will-o-wisp playing in your adventure? What would best permit the effect that you want to go for?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Also, enemies with tough defenses and low hit points are what force barrage is for, and if your casters don’t have it, then at least trying to aid your Allie’s with the best chances to hit can finish a tough enemy too. Flanking and aid is a pretty big shift for a tough monster.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I mean, if you build a Kineticist that only uses offensive impulses, that's your choice - it's like taking exclusively fire spells and meeting a fire-immune enemy.
There are usually other things you can do to contribute during the rare fight where your offensive abilities don't work.
The general conclusion by the designers appears to be "that was a mistake, and we'll do it differently now." In particular, the golem-replacements no longer do the "I am immune to magical everything" that golems did.
Personally, i'd figure that it's houserule-bait. Ideally you wont' use will-o-wisps all that many times in a campaign anyway, so it should be a temporary houserule based on the needs of the moment. What role is the will-o-wisp playing in your adventure? What would best permit the effect that you want to go for?
The problem is will-o-wisp shows up in a lot of published adventures. It is a classic, and not just one monster but a family of monsters. It is easier to house rule it than replace the monsters.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I mean, if you build a Kineticist that only uses offensive impulses, that's your choice - it's like taking exclusively fire spells and meeting a fire-immune enemy.
There are usually other things you can do to contribute during the rare fight where your offensive abilities don't work.
Assuming you're playing one of the kineticist elements that has those types of impulses and chose to take them, yeah you might theoretically have something you can do during the fight.
But that's several layers of 'ifs' to just hit the bare minimum threshold of being able to contribute in any way.
Wisps are just badly designed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The problem is will-o-wisp shows up in a lot of published adventures. It is a classic, and not just one monster but a family of monsters. It is easier to house rule it than replace the monsters.The general conclusion by the designers appears to be "that was a mistake, and we'll do it differently now." In particular, the golem-replacements no longer do the "I am immune to magical everything" that golems did.
Personally, i'd figure that it's houserule-bait. Ideally you wont' use will-o-wisps all that many times in a campaign anyway, so it should be a temporary houserule based on the needs of the moment. What role is the will-o-wisp playing in your adventure? What would best permit the effect that you want to go for?
Wisps are also a core component of what is the most successful, and I dare I say best, PF2 AP ever printed.
I was shocked that wisps made it into Monster Core virtually unchanged, especially given how golem antimagic was removed. The "complete immunity to magic outside of these four spells" thing is also just so D&D. There has to have been a way to move away from that and more into the mythological origins, as they did for so many other creatures.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah, I mean, if you build a Kineticist that only uses offensive impulses, that's your choice - it's like taking exclusively fire spells and meeting a fire-immune enemy.
There are usually other things you can do to contribute during the rare fight where your offensive abilities don't work.Assuming you're playing one of the kineticist elements that has those types of impulses and chose to take them, yeah you might theoretically have something you can do during the fight.
But that's several layers of 'ifs' to just hit the bare minimum threshold of being able to contribute in any way.
Wisps are just badly designed.
Again, if your character is built around the single idea of doing damage in a specific way, that's ok, but it also comes with the drawback that when that way isn't viable, you are ill-suited for this fight - not that much different from a melee martial against a flying enemy. It's only really a problem if it happens too often.
And even removing all class-specific abilities, you can still Seek and Point Out the invisible wisp, Demoralize it, Grab or Trip it, soak some damage, Aid your allies, help them with flanking, heal with Battle Medicine if you have it, or just try your luck and Strike with some weapon - a natural 20 will probably take out a good chunk of the enemy's HP.| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with wisps is it isn't "doing damage in a certain way" they are immune to. They are immune to all magic. It's not like building to only deal fire damage and then having problems with devils. They are immune to virtually all spells. Only a handful affect them, and only one (which isn't available to all traditions) actually damages them. Its not like you can debuff them (beyond Revealing Light) either. Half the classes in the game rely on spells/impules, and just not getting to use any of it isn't fun. Especially given how much PF2 curtailed buff spells, which would have at least let you enhance your martial strikers. Canny casters can build for this with the force barrage and revealing light, plus summons or battle forms. Kineticists have far fewer options, though.
This is further exacerbated by the wisps having extreme AC, flight, and at will one action invisibility. Their evasiveness combined with spell immunity prolongs these fights where your entire class becomes useless. (Luckily they have lower than low HP, so once you do land hits they shouldn't last long.)
And wisps are like the only monster this is true for. Rogues still hurt oozes, just less than other creatures. Even pre-remaster golem antimagic left broad categories of spells that worked, and when you used those you got to do things like slow the golem with no save or use cantrips to deal top slot level damage. Wisp have a much, much smaller list of spells that simply work normally on them. Luckily, they are good spells you'll use on more than just wisps. But should they be mandatory spells?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The problem with wisps is it isn't "doing damage in a certain way" they are immune to. They are immune to all magic.
Yeah. I'll second that. The problem is that as a spellcaster you have to have a very specific tool in order to be effective. So you can't adapt on the fly during combat when you are surprised with an encounter with a wisp.
You have to already know that you will be facing a wisp and build your character accordingly.
And even removing all class-specific abilities, you can still Seek and Point Out the invisible wisp, Demoralize it, Grab or Trip it, soak some damage, Aid your allies, help them with flanking, heal with Battle Medicine if you have it, or just try your luck and Strike with some weapon
That is true as far as it goes.
However, that is also not much fun for the player. Having all of the character's most effective and useful tools - the ones the player wanted to play with - removed entirely and being forced to rely on the bog standard basic actions that any NPC villager could do... doesn't make for an enjoyable experience.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A slowed Magus probably won't be able to Spellstrike as long as the condition stands, losing their most effective and useful tool, the one its player wanted to play with; does that mean that we should never use that condition on them? Or simply that putting a Slow-spamming enemy in every encounter is bad adventure design?
Maybe it's a stupid example, but I hope it makes my point of view more clear: if sometimes the conditions are far from optimal and you have to adapt, that's not entirely bad.
I think that it fosters creativity and makes you consider actions you would never use otherwise, even though they are much less effective of course and it would suck if you had to do so every other fight.
It isn't that it is a stupid example. But it is an incomplete one.
Spellstrike is one tool in the Magus toolbox.
Imagine an enemy that takes out their ability to use Spellstrike, cast spells directly, use arcane cascade, or use weapons with a die size larger than d4 other than a Dagger.
Because that is closer to the equivalent. A spellcaster or Kineticist going up against an enemy that is immune to all magic means that the character has lost practically all of their abilities. Not just one of them - even if that one is their favorite.
Thaumaturge here. I would do pretty well against a Wisp. Especially as an Eared Catfolk, I could be helping out with pointing out the wisp's position as a free action.
Inscribed Witch. If I am aware that I will be facing a wisp during daily preparations, I can prepare Magic Missile/Force Barrage.
If not, I can at least use Discern Secrets to provide other characters actions to Seek with.
|
Um... Flames Oracle.
I have nothing useful to do. The wisp is immune to all of my spells. I don't carry a weapon. I am not strong and have no training in athletics to use grapple or trip with.
The best I can do is heal people when the fight goes badly. And feel that the fight goes badly because I can't participate.
And even if I know in the morning that we will be facing a wisp, there is pretty much nothing I can do to prepare better.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Inscribed Witch. If I am aware that I will be facing a wisp during daily preparations, I can prepare Magic Missile/Force Barrage.
If not, I can at least use Discern Secrets to provide other characters actions to Seek with.
In PFS, my casters like to make sure Magic Missile/Force Barrage is covered in mid-level+ play, even if mainly because of incorporeal creatures. That paranoia/preparedness saved at least one otherwise very effective party from a TPK!
And with the low h.p. of Will O' Wisps & incorporeal creatures (not to mention the hard shells of most bosses), even lower level spell slots can make a notable impact. Or a cheaper scroll, etc. A 1st level Magic Missile does 1/5 a Will O' Wisp's h.p. (even if every other round due to 3-action being best usage).
And I can't imagine building a caster PC that couldn't assist, whether through buffs, Resist Elements, flanking/Aid, giving Fly, healing, etc. As noted above, that falls in the "martial who can't handle flying/kiting opponents" category. Patch up the gaps, perhaps with allies' help.
I don't think anyone is claiming that the game is unplayable because of the existence of Will-o-wisp.
Sure - there are things that a character could potentially do against one. Even if it isn't fun. Even if it makes their character feel useless for an encounter.
But let's not mistake that for saying that this is reasonable enemy design. Will-o-wisp's magic immunity is bonkers level of unfair to broad categories of characters.
Imagine an enemy that was immune to all physical damage other than from a dagger. How is a Barbarian's player going to feel about that? How about any pure martial character that doesn't happen to have a dagger?
This isn't a matter of patching up gaps. Will-o-wisp is only affected by 4 spells.
Why should enemies exist like this?
And if people really want to be pedantic about the rules, "Immunities: Magic" is a different entry than the "Magic Immunity" that makes them immune to most spells. It can be argued that they can't be damaged by runed weapons either.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
A kineticist's impulses (particularly including Elemental Blast and Extract Element) are treated as spells in some situations:
Abilities that restrict you from casting spells (such as being polymorphed into a battle form) or protect against spells (such as a spell that protects against other spells or a creature’s bonus to saves against spells) also apply to impulses.Will o' wisps, of course, are immune to almost all spells.
Magic Immunity A will-o’-wisp is immune to all spells except force barrage, quandary, and revealing light.Does this mean my kineticist player is just basically helpless against a will o' wisp? Do I need to get one of the other players to casually recommend that the poor guy carry a spear or something, despite the fact that he's essentially useless with it?
** spoiler omitted **
A compound complication in this discussion is that extract elements has specific wording to undo immunity.
If you 'extract' air, the wording is that a creature you have done that to that was immune to your impulses is now no longer immune.
This ability is 100% useless if it can't be used on something immune to your impulses - as it's use is to make something that was immune to you, no longer immune.
So... either extract elements is useless, or there's wording that needs to be cleaned up.
I wouldn't be upset if the wisps got a similar treatment to Golems in dialing down immunity into very high resistance to spells or something similar, but I think that the bigger issue of this thread is identifying whether, as the GM of an adventure where a problematic foe is on the horizon, how do you best help your table have fun with that encounter.
I don't think there is really 1 solution to that that will be fixed by errataing monsters or other rules-based solution. Like a GM can choose to switch the monster out (just as you might change a treasure that doesn't make sense for your party), you might modify the monster to make more sense to your party, you might give them some items and clues that will help them fight this creature (oh wow, we just found a wand of manifold missiles/Shardstorm at level 3 or 4! or a pile of scrolls of revealing light), you might talk to them in a session 0 or session 0 redo about why they are building characters that are trying to specialize in only doing one thing and why that has a good chance of getting the whole party killed in PF2.
If you, as GM, feel like you don't want to ever make your characters face challenges that invalidate their abilities, you have the power to do so. If you want to throw constantly more challenging encounters that require using different tactics and have a strong chance of killing PCs or the whole party, you can play that way too, and there are countless ways to balance between the too.
if sometimes the conditions are far from optimal and you have to adapt, that's not entirely bad.
But this is predicated on the ability to adapt being an option in the first place.
In your example, that's somewhat the case, because you're only debuffing the Magus, not stripping anything away, but that paints a radically different picture than the one the kineticist is in.
Furthermore, consider your solutions:
You've suggested the kineticist should pick a different element (since not all of them even have the utility abilities you're asking for), have different impulses, invest in specific skills.
Basically you've presented two scenarios, one in which the Magus should tactics or perhaps their preparation, and another in which the Kineticist should change their character.
So the best solution to encountering Wisps as a kineticist is to not play a kineticist in the first place. Calling that 'fostering creativity' feels like a bit of a stretch.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Um... Flames Oracle.
I have nothing useful to do. The wisp is immune to all of my spells. I don't carry a weapon. I am not strong and have no training in athletics to use grapple or trip with.
The best I can do is heal people when the fight goes badly. And feel that the fight goes badly because I can't participate.
And even if I know in the morning that we will be facing a wisp, there is pretty much nothing I can do to prepare better.
A lot of that is on the player for making a character without options. Everyone needs a plan B.
And if people really want to be pedantic about the rules, "Immunities: Magic" is a different entry than the "Magic Immunity" that makes them immune to most spells. It can be argued that they can't be damaged by runed weapons either.
It is complex. You can work it out. But sometimes rules are ridiculously tricky in PF2. Attack anyone?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
A lot of that is on the player for making a character without options. Everyone needs a plan B.
The thing is most of the time you don't. Not to that extent.
If our Pyrokineticist was playing in, say, Stolen Fate instead of Abomination Vaults, they'd have almost zero problem playing their character normally.
And on the flip side, playing through AV our Paladin was never expected to abandon core parts of her class wholesale through most of the campaign. Occasionally it was better for them to alter their tactics, but we never ran into an encounter that fundamentally bricked their class.
Nevermind that, again, there isn't much of a 'plan B' to have in the first place if literally none of your class features work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think if you bring a kineticist to Abomination Vaults and your GM doesn’t talk to you about the limits you will face in that campaign, that is on the GM. If you decide to play it anyway and don’t give yourself options, that is on you. I would also warn players about bring Rogues or swashbucklers into Abomination vaults too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
if sometimes the conditions are far from optimal and you have to adapt, that's not entirely bad.But this is predicated on the ability to adapt being an option in the first place.
In your example, that's somewhat the case, because you're only debuffing the Magus, not stripping anything away, but that paints a radically different picture than the one the kineticist is in.
Furthermore, consider your solutions:
You've suggested the kineticist should pick a different element (since not all of them even have the utility abilities you're asking for), have different impulses, invest in specific skills.Basically you've presented two scenarios, one in which the Magus should tactics or perhaps their preparation, and another in which the Kineticist should change their character.
So the best solution to encountering Wisps as a kineticist is to not play a kineticist in the first place. Calling that 'fostering creativity' feels like a bit of a stretch.
I was referring to my previous comment, where I listed some actions that you can do even when your class abilities are completely shut down.
I think there are two possible reactions to such a situation: one is to sit down and do nothing but complain that this single monster is especially nasty for you; the other is trying to find some way help, even if you are less effective than usual.
A lot of that is on the player for making a character without options. Everyone needs a plan B.
The thing is most of the time you don't. Not to that extent.
If our Pyrokineticist was playing in, say, Stolen Fate instead of Abomination Vaults, they'd have almost zero problem playing their character normally.
And on the flip side, playing through AV our Paladin was never expected to abandon core parts of her class wholesale through most of the campaign. Occasionally it was better for them to alter their tactics, but we never ran into an encounter that fundamentally bricked their class.
Nevermind that, again, there isn't much of a 'plan B' to have in the first place if literally none of your class features work.
This is a self-fulfilling prophecy: you don't need a plan B because situations when you would need it just won't happen. Except that they do, sometimes.
Whether or not a table is going to build characters to do only one thing, and only be having fun when they are doing that one thing, is a session 0 conversation, not a rules discussion conversation.
Wisps are an enemy that can pop up in play and lead to unexpected issues, but it sounds like the GM here is on top of identifying these issues in advance, and has a lot of options for how to handle it, since the encounter is still ahead of the party.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Um... Flames Oracle.
I have nothing useful to do. The wisp is immune to all of my spells. I don't carry a weapon. I am not strong and have no training in athletics to use grapple or trip with.
The best I can do is heal people when the fight goes badly. And feel that the fight goes badly because I can't participate.
And even if I know in the morning that we will be facing a wisp, there is pretty much nothing I can do to prepare better.
A lot of that is on the player for making a character without options. Everyone needs a plan B.
I need a plan B... for the one and only creature that behaves this way.
So, similarly, every Barbarian needs to spend an Ancestry or even a Class Archetype feat to get at least one damage dealing Cantrip for the lone hypothetical creature that is immune to weapon damage other than from a dagger.
|
|
Um... Flames Oracle.
I have nothing useful to do. The wisp is immune to all of my spells. I don't carry a weapon. I am not strong and have no training in athletics to use grapple or trip with.
The best I can do is heal people when the fight goes badly. And feel that the fight goes badly because I can't participate.
And even if I know in the morning that we will be facing a wisp, there is pretty much nothing I can do to prepare better.
A lot of that is on the player for making a character without options. Everyone needs a plan B.
What do you suggest for plan B?
Flames Oracle, so I can't get Magic Missile. Ever.
The highest level for any of the magic immunity wisps is 9th level. It is very reasonable for any character to still have a weapon to use at this point, probably with at least a striking rune on it. All of the wisps of this type have very low AC.
“Have a weapon you are default proficient in” is not a tall ask for character preparation.
HP sorry. I think my phone autocorrected a mistype from big fingers on a cellphone
|
And since all impulses gain the Traits of your Aura, they are immune to Extract since Extract as well will have the Fire trait.
This is not actually the case. An impulse only gains the traits of your aura "[i]f an impulse allows you to choose an element," which Extract Elements does not.
EDIT: Not that this helps against wisps, since their immunity doesn't come from an elemental trait either.
I pitted a 2nd-level fire kineticist against a Will-o'-Wisp in this week's Strength of Thousands game session. I delayed commenting on this event here because I wanted to write up the chronicle of the game session first: River Into Darkness Revisited. The chronicle is not a spoiler for Strength of Thousands because it is an additional quest based on Paizo's 2008 D&D module, GameMastery Module W2: River into Darkness.
The kineticist's impulses would have had no effect on the Will-o'-Wisp. However, I ruled that the fire trail from the kineticists Flying Flame impulse would reveal the wisp's location as a non-fiery spot if the trail went over the Will-o'-Wisp. That turned out to be unnecessary.
The kineticist was only one character among ten characters battling the Will-o's-Wisp. Moveover, the party was forewarned. Three arcane casters were prepared with Force Barrage/Magic Missile and Revealing Light/Glitterdust spells.
The kineticist had only two turns during the battle. During her first turn, she Repositioned a badly injured bard away from the Will-o'-Wisp so that she would no longer be a target. During her second turn, she flanked the Will-o'-Wisp opposite a martial character who could hit it. The -2 penalty to AC from the flank made the martial character's Strike into a critical hit that killed the Will-o'-Wisp.