After all that complain about Taunt and Intercept Strike I was thinking "maybe the best would be if the guardian was more closer to champion" when the idea came to my mind "why not!?" it's PF2e the only thing I need is to use champion archetype.
This build is very interesting because its mix many of the best things of both classes.
You basically needs to survive as a normal guardian up to level 6 when you get Retributive Strike, once you have Retributive Strike everything changes. Now you don't need to risk yourself excessively because Retributive Strike will protect your allies with the very good 2+lvl resistance without you need to risk yourself and the conter Strike probably will be enough to "taunt" the enemy that tries to attack your ally. Also the champions' reaction have a better range allowing you to keep your position (like flanking) while you protects your allies and punishes your enemies.
The other good point is that Taunt and Intercept Strike still there when you need then specially vs ranged enemies allowing you to be best prepared to both. Are you enemies attacking from far Taunt them and Intercept Strikes an ally while you are moving to take them. You get closer now you begin to use Retributive Strike to avoid get too damaged while now you starts to punish your enemies. If you are fighting both melee and ranged enemies you can simply do both use Taunt vs ranged while you use the best reaction to better protect your ally depending from what target is attacking it.
I don't need to explain that this is the only current combination with Champion Dedication that really have more defense than the champion itself so the other thing that works divinely well here is the Divine Ally (Shield). This gives the very well welcome +2 to Shield Hardness and +50% to its HP/BT once that the guardian gets REFLEXIVE SHIELD and IMPROVED REFLEXIVE SHIELD via class feats this will help a lot your shield to survive against most AoE magical damage improving your survival even more while keep protecting your allies.
There are many other interesting combinations for this feat specially if you are playing with Free Archetype what will allow you to get many others champions things like Lay on Hands to get some healing while still take many other interesting feats from guardian itself making a real very strong tanky character.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Fixing the Guardian by making them a Champion? Looks like we've come full circle.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Take Commander archetype.
Pick up Defensive Swap as a replacement for Intercept Strikd
And Standard Bearer's Sacrifice as a replacement for Taunt.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I agree this is my biggest concern with Guardian - that Intercept Strike is so weak that people will just take Champion's Reaction instead.
My second biggest being the feats at level 1-4 that other builds are going to take from these classes. Hamperings Sweeps being too strong, and Defensive Swap being 90 percent of the point of Guardian in one feat.
I agree this is my biggest concern with Guardian - that Intercept Strike is so weak that people will just take Champion's Reaction instead.
My second biggest being the feats at level 1-4 that other builds are going to take from these classes. Hamperings Sweeps being too strong, and Defensive Swap being 90 percent of the point of Guardian in one feat.
I don't expect Hampering Sweeps to survive as is.
I expect something like difficult terrain or similar.
I agree this is my biggest concern with Guardian - that Intercept Strike is so weak that people will just take Champion's Reaction instead.
My second biggest being the feats at level 1-4 that other builds are going to take from these classes. Hamperings Sweeps being too strong, and Defensive Swap being 90 percent of the point of Guardian in one feat.
I don't expect Hampering Sweeps to survive as is.
I expect something like difficult terrain or similar.
I heard a similar thing about Wings of Air during Kineticist playtest and the only thing that changed was its name to Cyclonic Ascent.
I heard a similar thing about Wings of Air during Kineticist playtest and the only thing that changed was its name to Cyclonic Ascent.I agree this is my biggest concern with Guardian - that Intercept Strike is so weak that people will just take Champion's Reaction instead.
My second biggest being the feats at level 1-4 that other builds are going to take from these classes. Hamperings Sweeps being too strong, and Defensive Swap being 90 percent of the point of Guardian in one feat.
I don't expect Hampering Sweeps to survive as is.
I expect something like difficult terrain or similar.
2 people with reach weapons, both using Hampering Sweeps (including 2 feats for a champion) can immobilize anything.
G= Guardianx= empty space
E= enemy
GxExG
The enemy can't move away from either one. It is stuck, at level 2 (or 4 for other classes).
Flying is available to all casters at level 7. Air Kineticist isn't doing anything new at level 8. Just doing it more often.
Or worse.
Cyclonic Ascent + reach weapon + Hampering Sweeps, hovering 10' above everyone.
They don't even need to use the weapon, just off-hand a whip.
I agree this is my biggest concern with Guardian - that Intercept Strike is so weak that people will just take Champion's Reaction instead.
I don't get what you have against Intercept Strike, it's very similar to Champion's Reactions. I agree that it's slightly worse, but not that much that Champion Dedication becomes a no-brainer.
I agree this is my biggest concern with Guardian - that Intercept Strike is so weak that people will just take Champion's Reaction instead.I don't get what you have against Intercept Strike, it's very similar to Champion's Reactions. I agree that it's slightly worse, but not that much that Champion Dedication becomes a no-brainer.
I think this can vary a lot based on your normal party members.
In some groups, other players seem to conduct combat with decent consideration for their ally's kit. Others, it seems like the allies are playing their own separate solo game, and will happily Stride out of the supported flank position to get the KO on a foe that spellcaster and ranged attacker both would have had a chance to knock down before the foe's turn.
- - -
In the Guardian's case, adjacent is *really* strict, while a 15ft radius is a whole lot easier to manage.
I think if Int Strike was revised so that at baseline:
it now may trigger in the same 15ft range, enabling a max 10ft Step to reach the ally that is being protected.
That would really help the Class keep it's unique Reaction much more commonly usable. Make more of a decision to choose IF they should use it, and get it further away from "I'm only going to get a few chances each fight, better use it while I can" kind of thinking.
- - -
It's just too hard to ever really be adjacent to more than one ally with any consistency. And even then, the Guardian may want to delay to go right after the ally they are trying to keep safe.
I don't think I've ever seen a class that really wants to delay quite as badly as a Guardian trying to make use of Int Strike.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In the Guardian's case, adjacent is *really* strict, while a 15ft radius is a whole lot easier to manage.
Not really. The Champion needs to be 15ft. away from their ally but also from the enemy. At low level it's quite easy to manage, but when you get to mid level with Reach and Size becoming bigger, the need to be both 15ft. from the ally and the enemy may end up as a conundrum. Having to be close to the ally only is an asset.
In my opinion, Champions will have it better at low level but Guardians will have it better at high levels.
Now, I agree that Intercept Strike triggering only on physical damage is a drawback. And the effect of transferring the damage to you is not as powerful than Champion's secondary benefits (but is definitely extremely thematic).
And even then, the Guardian may want to delay to go right after the ally they are trying to keep safe.
I don't know why you say that, but remember that while Delaying you can't take reactions.
Edit: I realized there are feats to Intercept energy damage, to increase the range of Intercept to 15 ft., to move your ally when you Intercept and Strike when you Intercept. With all these feats, Intercept becomes much better than Champion's Reaction. So instead of investing in Champion's Dedication I think it's much better to invest in Intercept.
And even then, the Guardian may want to delay to go right after the ally they are trying to keep safe.I don't know why you say that, but remember that while Delaying you can't take reactions.
Delay is a once-per-fight bit of prep that will maximize the time you are adjacent the ally you are prioritizing.
It is genuinely restricting to said ally to stand still all fight, but if they move, there typically will be 1/2 ish of the foe turns before the Guardian even has a chance to move back adjacent.
If you line up the turns, the ally has the minimal pressure to stand still.
And keeping the ally protected most of the fight leaves them with more HP, so that when they do move, the Guardian has more room to decide to either Stride after them with 0 protection downtime, or to prioritize something else and leave them alone for a turn.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or you don't prioritize any ally and position yourself to maximize the chances to have an adjacent ally. And allies can position themselves next to you when they start getting low in hit points. So there are many possibilities.
Also, you don't want to prioritize a single ally as you would end up not protecting the rest of the party. Splitting damage between party members is important so you should switch allies, prioritizing the ones that are low in hit points. A proper use of Intercept Strike is rather complex actually, unlike Champion's Reaction, which is something I like. Well, at level 10 you start protecting at 15ft. and it becomes much easier (even if high level fights tend to spread on bigger maps).
I heard a similar thing about Wings of Air during Kineticist playtest and the only thing that changed was its name to Cyclonic Ascent.I agree this is my biggest concern with Guardian - that Intercept Strike is so weak that people will just take Champion's Reaction instead.
My second biggest being the feats at level 1-4 that other builds are going to take from these classes. Hamperings Sweeps being too strong, and Defensive Swap being 90 percent of the point of Guardian in one feat.
I don't expect Hampering Sweeps to survive as is.
I expect something like difficult terrain or similar.
2 people with reach weapons, both using Hampering Sweeps (including 2 feats for a champion) can immobilize anything.
G= Guardian
x= empty space
E= enemyGxExG
The enemy can't move away from either one. It is stuck, at level 2 (or 4 for other classes).
Flying is available to all casters at level 7. Air Kineticist isn't doing anything new at level 8. Just doing it more often.
Isn't this already covered by the duplicate effects part of the core rules?
"When you're affected by the same thing multiple times, only one instance applies..." AoN
Well, at level 10 you start protecting at 15ft. and it becomes much easier (even if high level fights tend to spread on bigger maps).
Is that how “Get Behind Me!” really works? I interpret that feat as the Guardian is adjacent to the ally, Intercept Strike is then triggered and the Guardian can move that ally up to 10ft away from the enemy but still within reach of the Guardian. It doesn’t seem to me to give the Guardian a 15 ft range like the Champion… Now Mobile Protection does, but that’s only for one ally at the cost of two feats.
Is that how “Get Behind Me!” really works? I interpret that feat as the Guardian is adjacent to the ally, Intercept Strike is then triggered and the Guardian can move that ally up to 10ft away from the enemy but still within reach of the Guardian. It doesn’t seem to me to give the Guardian a 15 ft range like the Champion… Now Mobile Protection does, but that’s only for one ally at the cost of two feats.
You're right, it's level 6 actually with Mobile Protection. So it's even earlier.
Edit: I realized there are feats to Intercept energy damage, to increase the range of Intercept to 15 ft., to move your ally when you Intercept and Strike when you Intercept. With all these feats, Intercept becomes much better than Champion's Reaction. So instead of investing in Champion's Dedication I think it's much better to invest in Intercept.
For allies protection yes for your own survival no. Also I think that guardian needs too much feat tax to turn Intercept Strike into something good. Also I still thinks that Intercept Strike needs to take the own guardian AC into consideration. It's just bad heavily invest into your own defenses and the Intercept Strike just fully ignores it.
Edit: I realized there are feats to Intercept energy damage, to increase the range of Intercept to 15 ft., to move your ally when you Intercept and Strike when you Intercept. With all these feats, Intercept becomes much better than Champion's Reaction. So instead of investing in Champion's Dedication I think it's much better to invest in Intercept.For allies protection yes for your own survival no. Also I think that guardian needs too much feat tax to turn Intercept Strike into something good. Also I still thinks that Intercept Strike needs to take the own guardian AC into consideration. It's just bad heavily invest into your own defenses and the Intercept Strike just fully ignores it.
This issue is harder to change than I think it seems at first glance.
Int Strike only triggers after the ally has been hit. Their AC has been breached. If you let the Guardian see that attack roll, then decide if they want to jump in, I don't think you can permit them to know if they will get to turn an hit into a complete miss like that.
I don't see an issue with how it currently works:
Intercept Strike is for when they hit your allies. They are punished by both having their damage go to not whom they wanted, but more importantly having their damage reduced.
Your own AC is for when they target you. They are punished by targeting higher AC and your own resistances.
So, regardless whom they target, they are punished, either by reduced and redirected damage, or by increased AC.
That said, I wouldn't mind some inherent movement on Intercept Strike before level 8, because it is indeed very limited to be stuck to only adjacent till then (even if it's just against your Bodyguard charge).
But if that happens, I think that Intercept Foe will also need to be reworked, because the main reason for that feat chain is the increased mobility to protect allies.
I agree there. Also some positioning considerations guardians cant participate in flanking if they are trying to position to protect the one they are setting up a flank with for intercept strike or foe. Cant have anything obstructing your path like the creature your flanking.
They can position in front of back row or beside any other martial not going around for a flank. I think they need a reposition feet that swaps them with a creature they are flanking and intercepts a strike to the ally they set up the flank with.On another note taunt because it gives a circumstance penalty doesnt stack with off guard so if the guardian had a reposition intercept strike they would make a decent choice for a character to go around and set up a flank. That would also allow enemies to surround th guardian making them a prime target
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
For allies protection yes for your own survival no. Also I think that guardian needs too much feat tax to turn Intercept Strike into something good. Also I still thinks that Intercept Strike needs to take the own guardian AC into consideration. It's just bad heavily invest into your own defenses and the Intercept Strike just fully ignores it.
Basically, there are 3 ways of handling enemies attack with a Guardian:
- Taunt redirects enemies attack to you but at the cost of lowering your defenses at the level of everyone else.- Redirect Strike redirects damage to you but the enemy also has to hit a basic AC instead of your own.
- You take damage yourself by proper positioning and damage ends up on you with your superior defenses.
And depending on build and party you'll certainly favor one or the other but you're supposed to switch between all 3 depending on enemies and situations. None is perfect but all complement each other. If Redirect Strike was using your AC, it would become the go to way of handling attacks.
There's also another option. All your allies are ranged and you are the only one frontliner. This way you can use Hampering Sweeps to hold the enemies while keep your full defensive power and protects your backline.
But this only works for specific parties that has only guardians as frontliners.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree this is my biggest concern with Guardian - that Intercept Strike is so weak that people will just take Champion's Reaction instead.I don't get what you have against Intercept Strike, it's very similar to Champion's Reactions. I agree that it's slightly worse, but not that much that Champion Dedication becomes a no-brainer.
Intercept Strike and the Champions Reactions both negate level +2 damage.
Champions Reaction for the Paladin gives you a free Strike - that is a strong ability. Whereas Intercept Strike moves some of the remaining damage from another character to the Guardian. That is very useful if a fellow PC is in trouble. But often that is not true, and sometimes the Gaurdian is the one in trouble, and so that part of that ability is of little worth or will even stop you from taking that action.
=> Intercept Strike is only going to be used half the time that the Champion's Reactions are. Plus it is argueably weaker when it is used, except in the situation where an ally is in a lot of trouble and the Guardian is not.
It make sense to get another reaction. Of which the Guardian has a big list. A lot of people will go Champion. Though Reactive Strike is probably good enough.