Wand is probably one of the most cool implements for thaumaturges that want some of that wandslinging Eberron flavor, though I feel making characters around them is kinda troublesome. The first problem is that it requires two actions to use, which is huge for a class such as the thaumaturge which already has a tight action economy. Then you have to either choose if you want to melee or range, but if you go melee you risk getting an AoO / RS since it has the manipulate trait, but if you go ranged you are forced to pretty much use firearms or crossbows that need to be reloaded which makes your action economy even worse. This is kinda minor but I think it is important to note as well; wand doesn't benefit from exploit vulnerability, which seems weird to me.
I know the idea is to use wands as a secondary / back up MAP-less weapon after you attack with your main weapon, but wand is kinda taxing as an implement since you kinda need to take the adept benefit ASAP because otherwise the implement is just a mediocre cantrip that uses your thaumaturge class DC, which obviously makes your other implement be delayed for a while when likely that other implement is your main one.
I'm missing a interaction here that doesn't make wand that hard to fit into a build?
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
You're missing ranged unarmed attacks, repeating weapons that give you a decent number of shots before reloading and thrown weapons (either reload 0 ones like shrunken, or anything with a returning rune) as ranged options that work with wand without having extra awkward action economy.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
No, you're right, the wand is hard to make good. Closest you're gonna get is a repeating hand crossbow with cursed effigy. Take the bell as your second implement to maximize cursed effigy value.
Wand can also make a pretty good switch hitter between ranged and melee. Use the wand at range, then when the enemies close in, hit with random weapon in your other hand.
Very few characters are making both spell and weapon attacks each round. And of the ones that do, Thaumaturge probably does it best.
Spellcaster classes can augment their spell damage with weapon strike - especially ranged weapon strike. But their weapon proficiency lags behind martial classes.
Melee-built martial classes can augment their weapon damage with a cantrip for a ranged option. But it still costs them two actions to cast that. And their spellcasting proficiency lags behind.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also worth noting that the later versions of the Wand are a *lot* stronger than the earlier versions.
- Initiate is a worse cantrip that also fills your hand
- Adept is two different cantrips, and you get to pick which one you want on any given turn. That's at the d4 level. At the d6 level, they're somewhat better than what you'd expect from a cantrip.
- Paragon is *significantly* more impressive than any cantrip is going to manage, and you get all three options
So you might want to do something like take it as your second implement, but first adept, and you might want to consider how much of the campaign is being spent at what levels before you take it at all. If it's a level 17-20 adventure for some reason? Suddenly wand becomes *very* interesting.
Also, gotta say that cursed effigy on a ranged attack starts being really kind of difficult to justify.
You're missing ranged unarmed attacks, repeating weapons that give you a decent number of shots before reloading and thrown weapons (either reload 0 ones like shrunken, or anything with a returning rune) as ranged options that work with wand without having extra awkward action economy.
I personally don't see repeating weapons to be that good honestly. Yes, you effectively have reload 0 for a couple of attacks, but after usually 3-5 attacks you have to spend a whole turn doing nothing to recharge. If you are a thaumaturge, thus likely the glass cannon DPS of the party, it means you lose a whole turn in which the enemy could bring you down. If you look at it with math I guess it is much better that if you have, I don't know, 15 actions in the whole combat and you can attack 3-5 times only "lose" 3 actions to recharge it is worth it, but I feel in practice this could probably result in a turn in which you either have to move away to avoid getting killed and thus delay your reload by one turn or reload risking getting the focus of the enemy.
I agree with shurikens and thrown weapons with returning though, but I feel if the intended way to play around the wand implement was thrown weapons thaums would have something to enable that play style a little easier. Or at least something better than Call Implement, which technically would force you into the Wand + Weapon combo which technically you don't even meet the prerequisites of at 2nd level if you start with wand.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I personally don't see repeating weapons to be that good honestly. Yes, you effectively have reload 0 for a couple of attacks, but after usually 3-5 attacks you have to spend a whole turn doing nothing to recharge.
The recommendation for repeating weapons is that they aren't fired repeatedly during a single round. You only fire them once each round. Since battles normally only last 3-5 rounds, that means that a repeating weapon will have ammo for the entire battle (or at least the part of the battle where the outcome is in question) and you only have to reload it after the battle ends.
You're missing ranged unarmed attacks, repeating weapons that give you a decent number of shots before reloading and thrown weapons (either reload 0 ones like shrunken, or anything with a returning rune) as ranged options that work with wand without having extra awkward action economy.I personally don't see repeating weapons to be that good honestly. Yes, you effectively have reload 0 for a couple of attacks, but after usually 3-5 attacks you have to spend a whole turn doing nothing to recharge. If you are a thaumaturge, thus likely the glass cannon DPS of the party, it means you lose a whole turn in which the enemy could bring you down. If you look at it with math I guess it is much better that if you have, I don't know, 15 actions in the whole combat and you can attack 3-5 times only "lose" 3 actions to recharge it is worth it, but I feel in practice this could probably result in a turn in which you either have to move away to avoid getting killed and thus delay your reload by one turn or reload risking getting the focus of the enemy.
I agree with shurikens and thrown weapons with returning though, but I feel if the intended way to play around the wand implement was thrown weapons thaums would have something to enable that play style a little easier. Or at least something better than Call Implement, which technically would force you into the Wand + Weapon combo which technically you don't even meet the prerequisites of at 2nd level if you start with wand.
It's limited to once per day but you can also get a Wand of Shardstorm and use it as your wand implement.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Wand is kind of a paradox of an item in that it's both something that requires investment to be good (it's fairly underwhelming at initiate), but also isn't really designed to be reliable, as it's fairly low damage and has no interaction with your core class mechanics. Because of its action economy, it ends up being a bit worse than it even looks since using Fling means you can't strike twice, which is a fairly big deal when your core martial gimmick is raw bonus damage (that of course, doesn't even work with your wand).
The intensify is also pretty frustrating, as activating it means your whole turn is just spent on Fling and it's not exactly a game changing amount of ramp up.
Often the best 'use' of a wand implement is just taking it and forgetting it exists until you run into an enemy you can't fight effectively through normal means, in which case it's a free source of backup damage.... but that's kind of a boring answer.
If you want to make it work as your main implement, you really want a ranged option. Default suggestion is probably the boomerang, since you can make it Returning and it has a fairly decent range. Repeaters can be okay, but it puts a limit on how many attacks you can make (at least before you hit a reload wall) that can be a bit risky to play around. The shorter your combats on average the safer repeaters are though, so there's a group dynamic element there.
Bell is a good second implement to make your wand scarier, those debuffs are pretty sweet, though Bell (and the other reaction implements) while cursed effigy can provide a similar alternative (at least for you) that isn't too punishing to keep up if you have access to Haste. Mirror (even just left at initiate) is somewhat notable for giving you at-will pseudo-teleportation. There's no specific synergy here, it's just handy to have (though depending on terrain you might be able to exploit your range by moving somewhere melee enemies can't get to you). Tome is also a decent option because it provides some benefit even when you're not holding it.
I'd generally avoid Regalia, because it's best sitting in your hands during a fight and you can't really afford to do that if you're swinging your Wand around. Chalice and Lantern... exist. There's no special synergy or useful interaction there but if you really want them. Lantern's combat benefits are situational enough you won't be hurt putting it away (and when it does come into play it'll probably be important enough you don't mind losing your wand).
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that you really want a source of reliable Quickened for this build. Your action economy is extremely tight and only allows for one strike if you want to use your wand, so you scale really well with Quickened. Haste lets you strike twice and use your wand, or strike and activate effigy while still using your wand, or intensify your wand and still get a strike out, or still get to use both your abilities after you apply Exploit. It's a really big deal.
I know Haste benefits everyone, but this build in particular (along with some others with choking action economy that care about striding or striking) significantly improves its usability if you can get that buff consistently.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Wand is kind of a paradox of an item in that it's both something that requires investment to be good (it's fairly underwhelming at initiate), but also isn't really designed to be reliable, as it's fairly low damage and has no interaction with your core class mechanics...
This explains pretty well the main problem o wand as implement. It's simply doesn't integrate with the class at all. It's just like a "here take an implement that you can use to do magic attacks with your thauma but due we (designers) don't want that this class becomes a pseudo-caster it will work as a sub-weapon at maximum to allow those players that want to play as a caster thauma to have something".
I've had good results with Wand on my Strength/Melee thaumaturge. It gives me a ranged option based on Charisma, not Dexterity.
That seems the nature of it; it fills a gap rather than intensifies a Thaumaturgist's strengths. So yeah, it doesn't sync with other abilities so well, but it does help round out one's abilities, sort of an indirect syncing. I can imagine non-traditional builds would get good use out of Wand too, as in those that lean away from a weapon-based build (not that I'd recommend weakening one's build to make Wands appear better by comparison).
I honestly would want to the thought process of the devs when making wands not interact with exploit vulnerability at all. That's like if inventors weren't able to overdrive with their construct which effectively would make it a less desirable choice for most inventors.
The wand being save rather than spell attack is why it can’t interact with the weakness granting abilities.
I wouldn't stress too much about Reaction Attacks, they happen but they aren't that common, and at least some of the time either someone else will trigger them first or you'll trigger it in a way that'll help out someone else by taking them out of the line of fire so to speak.
Once you have exploit set up, Strike into Fling Magic is good damage, combining a martial's best strike with a basic save in a way that dodges MAP. With that in mind it's also not a bad candidate for the other hand when you're wielding a Triggerbrand or a Piercing Wind-- you can exploit into fling magic, and then on the next round if they haven't entered melee you fire the gun, or you switch to melee mode if they have and you can just critical fusion if you crit (and have crit spec) which makes this very tempting for a Weapon + Wand Thaum.
Side note - if you're considering the repeating hand crossbow, you might want to consider the rotary bow instead. Only holds four bolts at max instead of five, and the reload is one action per bolt rather than doing a whole magazine at once, but the range is 80 rather than 60, it's martial rather than advanced, the damage die bumps from d6 to d8, and that "one bolt at a time" thing can cut both ways.
I can see a build using the Wand (but honestly, I had to look a lot to find one): Bomb Thaumaturge with Wand Implement.
Bombs are interesting for a Thaumaturge as they trigger Weaknesses even on a missed Strike. But I've tried in the past to see what a Thaumaturge build with Bombs was giving and it was not incredible.
Now, if you add the Wand Implement, you can use Bomb Strike + Fling Magic and now the damage is starting to be interesting. A great asset of this build being that you can start with a Dexterity of 12 (as you need 14 Intelligence, it's not that much of an asset but it compensates).
But, well, we are clearly dealing with an extremely uncommon build (and one that can raise concerns from the GM as I don't think the interaction between Bombs and Exploit Vulnerabilities has ever been intended).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah... "bomb thaum" has the big problem of how you get enough bombs, of high enough quality. It's the kind of thing that might work if you had an alchemist gestalt to play with (though you then run into ugly issues with juggling what's in your hands). Without that, the best your'e goign to do is archetyping it, and if you're regularly doing more than one fight a day, you're going to run out real quick. You could buy or downtime-craft bombs... but that will burn through your resources right quick and leave you with basically nothing. You could let your bombs lag to save money... but that's a significant loss in overall effectiveness, and you're *still* bleeding money (though not as fast).
Basically, it's a mess.
Yeah... "bomb thaum" has the big problem of how you get enough bombs, of high enough quality. It's the kind of thing that might work if you had an alchemist gestalt to play with (though you then run into ugly issues with juggling what's in your hands). Without that, the best your'e goign to do is archetyping it, and if you're regularly doing more than one fight a day, you're going to run out real quick. You could buy or downtime-craft bombs... but that will burn through your resources right quick and leave you with basically nothing. You could let your bombs lag to save money... but that's a significant loss in overall effectiveness, and you're *still* bleeding money (though not as fast).
Basically, it's a mess.
No, no, it's not. I'm considering Bombs grabbed through the Alchemist Archetype. And considering that you have 2 Bombs per level, you very quickly get enough (especially because you use one per round on average as you use the Wand with your 2 other actions).
The at-level Bombs you can buy/craft, it's only for the extra oomph during special fights (and it's definitely an asset of the Archetyped Bombers).
No, the real issue is the extreme RAW reading you need to apply Exploit Vulnerabilities' weakness to Bomb Splash. A GM is well in their right to counter it with an RAI reading applying the Weakness only if you hit.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
No, the real issue is the extreme RAW reading you need to apply Exploit Vulnerabilities' weakness to Bomb Splash. A GM is well in their right to counter it with an RAI reading applying the Weakness only if you hit.
Well, that and the action crunch, and the int requirement, and the feats you have to spend to make it happen, and the fact that for much of your career you'd *still* be better served to take something other than the wand and just get a cantrip from your ancestry.
Well, that and the action crunch, and the int requirement, and the feats you have to spend to make it happen, and the fact that for much of your career you'd *still* be better served to take something other than the wand and just get a cantrip from your ancestry.
Once you get Quick Bomber (level 4), the actions are fine. It's feat heavy, so you'd better play it with FA (which is far from rare). And you need a few levels to get it working, level 5 roughly.
In my opinion, the Wand is better than a Cantrip. The damage is slightly higher (especially when you use d6s which should happen often considering the low recharge time) and the range is awesome. The only competition will be EA which has a lower range and lower damage (it's more significative at low level) but can target 2 enemies.
No, in my opinion, it's a build that can work fine. It's nothing impressive, still.
Well, that and the action crunch, and the int requirement, and the feats you have to spend to make it happen, and the fact that for much of your career you'd *still* be better served to take something other than the wand and just get a cantrip from your ancestry.Once you get Quick Bomber (level 4), the actions are fine. It's feat heavy, so you'd better play it with FA (which is far from rare). And you need a few levels to get it working, level 5 roughly.
In my opinion, the Wand is better than a Cantrip. The damage is slightly higher (especially when you use d6s which should happen often considering the low recharge time) and the range is awesome. The only competition will be EA which has a lower range and lower damage (it's more significative at low level) but can target 2 enemies.
No, in my opinion, it's a build that can work fine. It's nothing impressive, still.
Quick Bomber isn't the only action issue. There's also just establishing Exploit Vulnerabilities itself - something that's going to cost you an action every time you switch targets... and, of course, there's the occasional need to move and so forth. Thaumaturge isnt' exactly short on ways to spend their actions even without Wand.
As for the wand being better than a cantrip... no? No. *Really* no. Certainly not at first. Fling Magic prior to paragon is single target, and it's dealing 1d4/6+chamod, rising by d4/6s. If you max out charisma, that's another +4 to +5 damage. Our buddy Electric Arc, by comparison, is doing 2d4+d4 damage, and hitting two targets. Caustic Blast is 1d8+1d8 (starts weaker, but should be solidly in the lead over the d4 version by level 7. It matches the d6 version by level 11, and then pulls ahead) and has an area effect.
Wand really isn't great. The only two things it offers that make it competitive prior to paragon (level 17) are the fact that it's based on class DC (which might be a lot better than your casting DC) and the fact that it doesn't limit your ancestry choices.
As for "can work"? Well, yeah. That's a pretty low bar in PF2, really. Basically anything that sounds reasonable and plausible (and some things that don't) is workable.
I dunno. I guess we don't actually have a lot to argue about here, as I largely agree with you in the final conclusion. It *is* workable... and also really unimpressive. Yes. That.
Quick Bomber isn't the only action issue. There's also just establishing Exploit Vulnerabilities itself - something that's going to cost you an action every time you switch targets... and, of course, there's the occasional need to move and so forth. Thaumaturge isnt' exactly short on ways to spend their actions even without Wand.
When you don't have the actions, you use the Bombs. The Bombs are your main source of damage but going full Bombs is way to costly to be sustainable before rather high levels. The Wand is there to alleviate the cost.
As for the wand being better than a cantrip... no? No. *Really* no. Certainly not at first. Fling Magic prior to paragon is single target, and it's dealing 1d4/6+chamod, rising by d4/6s. If you max out charisma, that's another +4 to +5 damage. Our buddy Electric Arc, by comparison, is doing 2d4+d4 damage, and hitting two targets. Caustic Blast is 1d8+1d8 (starts weaker, but should be solidly in the lead over the d4 version by level 7. It matches the d6 version by level 11, and then pulls ahead) and has an area effect.
First, read Caustic Blast Heightening again. As for EA, it has a much lower range and once you start getting the various bonuses (expert proficiency, level 7 extra effect) it has hard time competing with the wand. Sure, against 2 enemies you deal nice damage but spreading damage is not always the best thing to do.
As for "can work"? Well, yeah. That's a pretty low bar in PF2, really. Basically anything that sounds reasonable and plausible (and some things that don't) is workable.
I dunno. I guess we don't actually have a lot to argue about here, as I largely agree with you in the final conclusion. It *is* workable... and also really unimpressive. Yes. That.
No, it works. As in "dealing normal damage for a ranged attacker". With 3 actions, it does the damage of a Shortbow Fighter doing 3 Strikes, plain ones so it's obviously a low bar, but you can start with 12 Dexterity, you have much more skills, the support of a lot of Alchemical items, AoE effects (especially once you grab Sympathetic Vulnerabilities), weakness exploitation, etc...
So, it works. Considering the complexity of the build and the need for GM approval, it's a lot of hassle for no real gain, that's why I don't think it's an interesting build. But if you want to play a really weird Thaumaturge using Wands and Bombs (with FA), then it's fine.
Also, Wands of Manifold Missiles!!!!!
First, read Caustic Blast Heightening again.
Huh. I stand corrected. Guess I've been spending so much time looking at kineticist stuff rather than spell stuff that Heightened (+2) jsut looked normal and natural to me.
As for the rest of it... I don't think there's enough daylight left between us to fight over. Our overall conclusions are basically in line with one another. You've even raised a couple of points that I'd at least have to consider and think about and adjust against, and there's just not enough meat left on the bone to make it worth the trouble.
but yeah - wand Thaum: Are you crippling yourself? Not really. If the thing that you want is to play a wand thaum, then you can play a wand thaum and it won't be horrible. Is it a top-tier pick? No. No it is not. My personal take is that many thaum implements get a "maybe" on that one. Whether or not they're top-tier is a matter for debate and personal interpretation. The wand (if you're not level 17+ and throwing Paragon on it) is a "no".
Side note for shenanigans: A tengu feather fan (lvl 5 ancestry feat) can let you use Class DC for cantrips (kicking in before proficiency scaling would be a thing) and could quite reasonably be a regalia implement. Admittedly, it is limited to jsut the one ancestry.
Huh. I stand corrected. Guess I've been spending so much time looking at kineticist stuff rather than spell stuff that Heightened (+2) jsut looked normal and natural to me.
It's exactly what I thought.
but yeah - wand Thaum: Are you crippling yourself? Not really. If the thing that you want is to play a wand thaum, then you can play a wand thaum and it won't be horrible.
Yes, it's that: You can play a Wand Thaumaturge, with Bombs it works fine but asks for a lot of shenanigans, otherwise it's a second or third implement to cover range on Strength Thaumaturges.
It's a bit sad but not all options are meant to be playable as main schtick.