How to deal with a paladin tank ac?

[TempestT]

Hi, im a DM with advanced players and difficult adventure. Its too hard to create a good combat, literally the tank is undefeated, too much ac, touch, CMD, saves (its a paladin monk so...) and i cant do sunder him. The only downside is that is slow, but it doesnt matter. Then, there is a kinecist that makes damage like a warrior with touch range attack. And then, other players get a more soft character that cant deal with monsters i use to try to defeat the tank. My problem is the tank, no counter.
Kinecist well, i can use a slayer, CMB, etc.

[Pizza Lord]

1. Magic missiles

2. Web spell to slow them down even more, and aqueous orb to just roll back and forth through the webs or sit on top of them.

3. Obscuring mist or solid fog to cut their visibility or slow them down, and blindsense/blindsight to attack them without their Dex.

4. Use touch attacks, preferably with #3, like ray of exhaustion. Make them exhausted (–6 Strength and Dexterity and can't run or charge). Even if they save, they're fatigued (–2 Strength and Dexterity and can't run or charge), then hit them with ray of exhaustion again, and they become exhausted.

5. Wall of fire, forcing them to run through it for damage, but more preferably, casting it longways down a long narrow corridor, preferably with a solid fog to slow them down (it's 20 ft per caster level), forcing them to move down it, taking fire damage each round.

6. Helm of opposite alignment

7. Swarms, preferably the little bugs, that are immune to weapon damage.

8. Completely innocent and helpless person concealed under a programmed illusion of the BBEG. If they fail to detect evil first or stop and try and pierce the illusion and attack, the 1st-level commoner dies. And they must atone for the murder. It was unintentional, which is why the atonement will be basically free... but they still must do it. They should have been thorough and made sure of their target first, being tricked is no excuse, but it is forgiveable.

[Trokarr]

Creatures with the Troop Type (like swarms but made up of small size or larger creatures).

Alchemists - unless your Paladin/monk has evasion even if they make their Dave they will take some damage. If they have evasion use mundane alchemical weapons. There is no save for half damage on most of them so if he’s in the splash zone he takes guaranteed minimum damage, more with a direct hit. Alchemist fire would be great as the continuing burn damage will either keep hurting him or force him to spend actions to put it out.

Any ability with a guaranteed effect even on a successful save as long as it’s not a reflex save that he can beat with evasion.

Traps are kinda boring but can be effective especially magical traps.

Ethical dilemmas or things that will cause him to fall from grace and lose his abilities. Trick him into canabalism maybe as it’s an evil act.

[zza ni]

be mindful the following has caused more then one tpk when used sparsely. i made this back in 3.5 in the original format.

any item crafting villain (In pathfinder I use a Hoaxer bard arcthype for flavor) who summon\control undead (can use skeleton summoner feat or other means). have the undead throw sneeze dust before engaging for ether 3d6 con damage (if failed save) or 5d4 rounds of stunned condition (if succeeding, not poison, straight up damage or condition). as a cursed item this can be made cheaply by making a cursed Dust of Tracklessness. (125 gp per dose)

In the original battle plane the undead were flying (vampire spawns sprites controlled by the vampire bbeg) who dusted the party from above using big 'salt & pepper shakers' while they stood over a gride floor (with holes leading to the floor below) the stunned condition also make them drop their weapons and the floor below had rust monsters waiting for their treats. and then the vampire spawn exploded a few beads of force trying to trap each party member with at least 2-3 spawns who went into grapple-drain the split up stunned party members.

the original plan was formed by me for a fellow GM who complained her players become overly confident. it was meant to teach them humility. the invisible sprites kept talking about the tasty 'snacks' they would soon eat while dealing with them. the gm in this case showed them mercy and let them survive vie the old 'deus ex machina', but originally they should have perished. (she also let them reclaim their treasured weapons, i'm still a bit upset over that part. overly compassion lead to not learning any lessons.)

[Mysterious Stranger]

The only way a paladin/monk combination is going to work well is if the monk is CHA based. That means it is probably using the Serpent-Fire Adept archetype. To get a high AC is going to require a high DEX, which probably means his STR is not that high. If that is the case the character sacrificed a lot of offensive ability for his defenses.

If the character is relying on smite evil for offense, he is likely to run out of smites quickly. The way to counter that is to throw more mid-range threats at him. Instead of one powerful foe throw multiple slightly weaker foes. Paladins are extremely good at taking down the big bad boos, but often have trouble with multiple foes.

Smite evil also contributes to his defenses against the target of the smite evil. One way to counter that is to use neutral monsters instead of evil. Smite evil does not work well against elemental, constructs or non-evil foes.

[I grok do u]

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

The only way a paladin/monk combination is going to work well is if the monk is CHA based. That means it is probably using the Serpent-Fire Adept archetype. To get a high AC is going to require a high DEX, which probably means his STR is not that high. If that is the case the character sacrificed a lot of offensive ability for his defenses.

I think you mean scaled fist, but your point stands.

As for challenging the pallymonk, an encounter with a colony of calpinas or brain moles could ruin any paladin's day. Unless he has diamond body from monk levels, some drugs (muscaria) and poisons do Cha damage or drain can also hurt his powers.

Evil enemies wearing armor can have the warding ability to cancel a smite.

Other tactical options: have enemies with abilities or spells that damage attackers using unarmed strikes like stunning barrier, shocking image, fire shield, thorn body, etc. Use environmental hazards, difficult terrain, and have an intelligent enemy try to separate him from the rest of the party to give him and the rest of the party different power level opponents.

[Mysterious Stranger]

Yea I meant scaled fist.

Paladins have good Fortitude saves and get CHA to saves. Poison is not going to be very effective vs them. The DC for the fortitude save for Muscaria is only 14. Unless the character is only 1st level with a poor CON the chance of it affecting the character extremely low. At 4th level the character should have at least a +10 fortitude save. The paladin has some serious defensive ability, it is this more than the smite evil that makes the class powerful.

A DEX based paladin is actually a very good build. I wrote up a paladin of Sarenrae and it turned out very powerful. Touch AC is usually to weak spot of a paladin and to a lesser extent REF saves. The DEX based paladin fixes those weaknesses. Getting DEX to damage keeps there offense reasonable, and improved critical makes it even better.

Spells that allow saves are going to run into the same issues as the poison.

[Oli Ironbar]

I wouldn’t worry about defeating him if the player is having fun and the situation isn’t ruining the fun for anyone else. He has found his job and he does it well.

Now, if you want to make things more interesting, give him choices of where he should position himself: attacks from two sides, high vs. low terrain, place ranged attacks at a distance all around the party. Anything that would make the player wish his PC could be in more than one place at a time, that will make things more fun.

[I grok do u]

Agreed that it is a strong build.

Hitting for Cha damage is usually not particularly effective, but it is in combatting a character that uses it to boost saves, damage, and AC.

Muscaria's Fort save is against addiction, the Cha damage is no save. Of course, enemy has to trick the paladin into ingesting it.

Calpinas also have a low DC for exhaustion and only +6 on attack, but with 7-12 rolls for a colony, odds improve some Cha drain happens on the grapples.

Spells like shocking image, thorn body, and fire shield all are also no save on hit. These bypass the hard to hit AC.

[Melkiador]

Paladin monk makes me wonder if it’s a dexterity build. If it is then just use a potion of greater invisibility. What level is this at?

But in general, you shouldn’t counter characters like this if it isn’t disrupting the game. If someone builds to do a thing, then they should generally be able to do the thing.

[Goldcape]

Flying archer and or spell caster with a good AC

[Azothath]

so your role as a GM is to create a good dynamic game with stories and life lessons, etc. where your players go, 'OMG, remember when we ... in Ralph's game'. Often people focus on the martial aspects of it as that is the easy and obious part. It is like 12 yos expressing their puissance at a video game...
I could tell you how to put a paladin monk PC unconscious in a CR+3 challenge but where would that go or get the story... that is just system skill at coutering a strategy & tactic set.

As the world, you can defeat PCs at any time (aka rocks fall from the skies & you die, end of story *sound of adventure book snapping shut*). No fun for anyone really. So don't get in competition with the players as that's a trap for you and not your job.
There are many ways to challenge players and many ways to create conflicts, challenges, tricks & traps, puzzles, etc.
I would suggest more non-combat challenges which should be 20-33% of your challenges. If it is all combat challenges that is part of your structural problem. This is roleplaying not vigillante murderhobo death race 2000.
You might need to incorporate parts from PFS Scenarios from year 6-10 into your current game as an easy source.

[Mysterious Stranger]

My mistake I thought it was a poison. It is a drug, so you have to get the character to take it. That means either through force, which is not likely or trickery. I would not count on this, and it only does 1d4, so may not even do enough to affect anything. Paladins also have access to lesser restoration which has a good chance of countering it.

Thorn body and fire shield don’t do a lot of damage, and both can be ignored by using a reach weapon. Fire shield can be countered with Resist Energy which is also on the paladin's spell list. The paladins lay on hands can probably take care of the damage from these spells as swift action.

The problem seems to be there is an imbalance in the party. The OP mentions the other players are weaker than this character. He used the phrase more soft, which I assume means weaker. That kind of imbalance between the party does cause problems.

[I grok do u]

Yes, indeed! These are things that will burn his resources by at least providing a tangible, if small, threat. They can cost the paladin either hp or hit a key ability score without necessarily being a deadly threat to the other party members.
Cha damage isn't particularly common it seems, so it was at least fun to find a couple that are no save and no undead or evil outsiders. Paladins and most spontaneous arcanes, beware!

As Azothath and others have said, unlimited GM power can defeat any PC. So, I'm assuming the OP is good on the GM'ing goals, and that the rest of the game components (exploration, social challenges, etc) are fine. Likewise, hopefully I can presume the OP has had a frank and open discussion on how this imbalance is affecting the game for the players and GM.

So recapping: OP was looking to deal with the combat imbalance of two PCs, the paladin and a kineticist. The kineticist was just hard hitting, but had weaknesses to play against. However, the paladin was lacking in weaknesses against APL-appropriate threats. GM could just spam dominate person or murderous command on the rest of the party against the paladin, let the other players roll against that AC. But most of the other suggestions made are probably better choices.

[zza ni]

A less lethal way to deal with paladins-monks then the one I posted above would be to use an antipaladin's aura to counter their immunity to fear and send them packing.
say an antipaladin focused on intimidate with all 4 damnation feats, backed up by a caster who stone wall (or stone shape) the area to prevent the paladin from moving more then 10 ft away from the antipaladin (so he's fear immunity doesn't come back. "Run coward!")

[Oli Ironbar]

The last post reminds me that exceptional PC's should have exceptional rivals. Perhaps it is a lone anti-paladin who fell from the Paladin Order that first trained the both of them, making redeeming the enemy a viable alternative to fighting.

Or maybe there is a whole team of anti-paladins that have been working behind the scenes to exact their revenge.

Either way, if you make it known beforehand that there is a foe who could challenge even the party's mightiest hero, you have created a much different table dynamic. The party knows to prepare for the powerful PC being stripped of a lot of his strengths and that the other players will be the key to the party's success.

In the opposite direction, throwing a random foil against this PC to take a few hit points off or maybe even score a KO/kill, just tells the rest of the party that they will never-ever be powerful enough because even the team's best fighter can't win.

[zza ni]

well the option of the fear anti-paladin isn't a must lethal one.
it's there so the enemy that the party have been foiling his plans can hire to 'teach them a lesson' (or to keep them busy while he finish up his dirty deeds).

there is no reason to tell the party beforehand the plans the BBEG make, but there is also no need to have them being automatedly lethal. and once met they party can start their plans on how to overcome it next time.

[Azothath]

I understand that party members have focused on different aspects of the Game and that makes crafting challenges a bit trickier. They come together as a party to combine focused areas to make a more competent group (higher probability of success with their various strengths). Again, providing an array of challenges is the key to challenging a group that is focused on just one area.

Paladin-monk: it's mainly better saves as monk class abilities have restrictions on wearing armor. Combine that with paladin's martial base and better saves and it is pretty powerful defensively and good martially versus Evil foes. Reflex saves are still an issue. Paladins are terrible at skill challenges (they may have Cha and some ranks in Diplo) & puzzles, traps, athletic challenges (armor checks), stealth (armor), not clear moral situations or where challenges are non-lethal, and versus clerical types in their own or similar faith (baked in RP issue). They have problems with guerilla tactics, jack-in-the-box, or non-constant combat (like a hag with a heartstone that can go etheral without provoking) where ready an action is their only option. They may also have issues with ranged attacks especially if foes have better movement. Paladins, being moral types, are easily baited or tricked using suitable immoral grounds. Strongly lawful types have issues with tricky or murky moral/ethical situations.
Worst foe: non-evil wizard with mooks(a celestial mook does wonders, create pit and other conjurations are quite amusing), non-evil summoner with eidolon, mooks, and various conjurations, spymaster/manipulator with many mooks, 3 gunslingers and a bard with 4 horses or behind barricades, coven of witches that debilitates at a distance using stealth and won't engage with beguiled and innocent combat and non-combat mooks, den of (kobold) traps, chess match challenge, higher level cleric gone traitor but you don't have any proof, most fey, angry tax collectors, etc...

Kineticist: mainly a noisy ranged blaster that lowers its HPs to do significant damage. Anything interfering with targeting foils their ranged attacks. Their Con makes them seem hardy but they are not good defensively and have a low Will save. They tend to focus feats on their kinetic talents thus only passable melee combatants. With 4+Int they are okay at skill challenges (depends on what they did with Int). They are not good with traps, puzzles, athletic challenges (though they have Con), stealth (noisy gather power), and tricky combat situations.
Worst foe: any arcane caster with a wand of obscuring mist and mooks, spymaster/manipulator with many mooks, 3 gunslingers and a bard with 4 horses or behind barricades, coven of witches with couple of beguiled combat mooks, morlocks & dark creepers, den of (kobold) traps, gambling challenge, grappling druid and succubus, non-lethal sneak specialist, etc...

[Lord Ebert]

Try not attacking him and go for the weaker party members tanks usually don't have the offensive capabilities to hurt your monsters.

[thorin001]

Is it interfering with the fun of the other players? If no then let him revel in his awesome ability to protect his friends.

[Azothath]

Lord Ebert wrote:

Try not attacking him and go for the weaker party members tanks usually don't have the offensive capabilities to hurt your monsters.

terrible advice as a written. As a GM you can only do this (target PCs) if your NPCs have the knowledge and information to do so along with the motivation.

Monster's need Int/Wis/skills to have strategies like attack "soft" targets but sentient creatures can attack unarmored or lightly armored foes first or gang up on heavily armored foes.

[Melkiador]

Azothath wrote:

As a GM you can only do this (target PCs) if your NPCs have the knowledge and information to do so along with the motivation.

That depends a bit on your world and your place in it. If you are one of the strongest beings for 100 miles, most people are going to know about you.

[Mightypion]

Yeah, also, if I am intelligent I will seek to prioritize spellcasters, which this specific Paladin could use however, by pretending to be a sorceror.

[Marcella]

I wish we knew the PC’s level and non-melee capabilities.

I am a big fan of combining Rime Spell with Winter’s Grasp, which allows no save or even SR. Unless he knows to get cold resistance beforehand, he’ll be entangled and reduced to quarter-speed. Attempts to cast or shoot will keep him in the area effect and anyhow will be hindered by his entanglement.

The combo reduces Reflex vs. cold by -4, so it will also set up for follow-up cold spells like Ice Spears (which do better in icy terrain) and Frost Fall (which can stagger, keeping him in the area effect longer). A couple of 1st-level (winter?) witch mooks with wands of Ill Omens will worsen his odds too. Even Grease will now require an Acrobatics check of 15. Levitating/flying creatures can engage within the area without penalty.

There are also the various wall spells. Wall of Thorns is hard to get out of without magic or immense strength, but that can make for a dull game.