If the reduce hitpoint step is not the taking damage part, you technically never take damage, all other stages only deal with calculating the damage number.
Secondly Shield block specifies that you need to take damage, if it was the first thing that happened (before ress) it would not need to say that, and would just need to req a hit from a physical attack.
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Yup, it seems really odd, but the resistance does come first.
If the reduce hitpoint step is not the taking damage part, you technically never take damage, all other stages only deal with calculating the damage number.
Secondly Shield block specifies that you need to take damage, if it was the first thing that happened (before ress) it would not need to say that, and would just need to req a hit from a physical attack.
I understand your arguement. My question is, however, is TAKING DAMAGE the same as Reducing Hit Points.
It appears you can take damage, then mitigate taken damage to result in a loss of zero hit points.
Example: If a fireball hits a party and some people do not reduce their hitpoints (due to a criticial success or resistances) , does that mean the fireball does no damage, or does it mean some characters did not reduce the hit points?
This is my sticking point. Can a character TAKE DAMAGE that results in NO LOSS OF HITPOINTS.
Why does step 4 say REDUCE HIT POINTS instead of "Take Damage"
I think if you reduce damage so much that you do not reduce your hit-points, you didn't take any damage.
For your fireball example, that fireball dealt no damage to the people that didn't reduce their hit points.
To put it another way, look at something like Wounded Rage . Would you allow a barbarian who critically succeeds versus a fireball to use it? If you think "well, they took damage but didn't reduce their HP" then the answer is yes, but I think it's pretty clear the rules assume "take damage" to be the same as "reduce your HP".
Which means that Shield Block's cause of "you would take damage" can only really be filled at the end of the process, which does mean Resistances/Weaknesses apply before it, strange as that sounds.
I mean if Shield Block doesn't take place after the whole sequence, where does it take place? Between steps 2 and 3? 1 and 2? Or do people let their players shield block the damage before doubling for a crit?
Yup, it seems really odd, but the resistance does come first.
Only block what you need. If you can catch some of the blow from the enemy's sword slash on your shoulder bone, then there is no need to get the shield involved as much. Save some time on repairs.
Yup, it seems really odd, but the resistance does come first.Is this new to Remaster ?
The rules on AoN (pre-Remaster) do not seem to work like this.
Because the Trigger for Shield block there is "you would take damage" rather than "you take damage".
No. It's pre-remaster. Remaster doesn't changed this.
Can someone official please put a pin in this ongoing debate. Is "taking damage" the same as "reducing hit points".
We have something oficial but goes back to 2019/2020 posts that I won't search now. I don't remember well but was in a post/discord/video in the past where Mark said that you even know the damage value before choose or not to trigger the Shield Block reaction.
Notice that its not something that is part of normal happens in normal damage steps but a reaction that a shield bearer with the Shield Block feat/ability can trigger when its trigger conditions is reach (what's happen at step 4).
Anyway if you search for "shield block" here in the rules forum you will found a lot of discussion about the Shield Block.
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Out of curiosity, what are you trying to get out of this discussion? Like what's the end goal, what are you trying to enable or prevent from happening? A lot of this seems very semantic.
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Yup, it seems really odd, but the resistance does come first.Is this new to Remaster ?
The rules on AoN (pre-Remaster) do not seem to work like this.
Because the Trigger for Shield block there is "you would take damage" rather than "you take damage".
No. It's pre-remaster. Remaster doesn't changed this.
Can someone official please put a pin in this ongoing debate. Is "taking damage" the same as "reducing hit points".We have something oficial but goes back to 2019/2020 posts that I won't search now. I don't remember well but was in a post/discord/video in the past where Mark said that you even know the damage value before choose or not to trigger the Shield Block reaction.
Notice that its not something that is part of normal happens in normal damage steps but a reaction that a shield bearer with the Shield Block feat/ability can trigger when its trigger conditions is reach (what's happen at step 4).
Anyway if you search for "shield block" here in the rules forum you will found a lot of discussion about the Shield Block.
Way I read it, you know how much damage you would take. If you decide not to block, that is the damage you take, and then resistance applies. If you decide to block, the amount is reduced accordingly and the result is the damage you (and your shield) end up taking. And then resistance applies.
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Way I read it, you know how much damage you would take. If you decide not to block, that is the damage you take, and then resistance applies. If you decide to block, the amount is reduced accordingly and the result is the damage you (and your shield) end up taking. And then resistance applies.Yup, it seems really odd, but the resistance does come first.Is this new to Remaster ?
The rules on AoN (pre-Remaster) do not seem to work like this.
Because the Trigger for Shield block there is "you would take damage" rather than "you take damage".
No. It's pre-remaster. Remaster doesn't changed this.
Can someone official please put a pin in this ongoing debate. Is "taking damage" the same as "reducing hit points".We have something oficial but goes back to 2019/2020 posts that I won't search now. I don't remember well but was in a post/discord/video in the past where Mark said that you even know the damage value before choose or not to trigger the Shield Block reaction.
Notice that its not something that is part of normal happens in normal damage steps but a reaction that a shield bearer with the Shield Block feat/ability can trigger when its trigger conditions is reach (what's happen at step 4).
Anyway if you search for "shield block" here in the rules forum you will found a lot of discussion about the Shield Block.
Strangely its works like this because the trigger happens after the damage was resolved. The damage calculation order is:
1. Roll the dice indicated by the weapon, unarmed attack, or spell, and apply the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply to the result of the roll.
2. Determine the damage type.
3. Apply the target’s immunities, weaknesses, and resistances to the damage.
4. If any damage remains, reduce the target’s Hit Points by that amount.
Where resistances are calculated into the Step 3 while Shield Block trigger into the Step 4. This is also how foundryvtt deals with blocks in damage cards (this card image comes from PF2e Target Damage module but the module only automates your target the card buttons and its automation are from PF2e system module).
While you have your shield raised, you would take damage from a physical attack.
That's why the resistance also applies to your shield because it's calculated in the Step 3 where the damage still not applied to the target (Step 4) and cannot trigger it's reaction.
...The converse would also be true if the attack also applied poison, the Shield's immunity to poison would ignore that damage for both the Shield and the Wielder.
Not really. The target is the creature not the shield. The shield is unable to share its object immunities with the creature, the shield itself doesn't matter for the Shield Block, only its hardness, hp and bt are mentioned in the reaction and if it's rise unless the shield or some feat explicitly changes how the shield block reaction works.
What protect the shield from poison damage is that the reaction's trigger only works for physical damage and due the Step 2 only mention only one type of damage and there's a commonly used interpretation (again that's used in foundryvtt automations) that each damage type has their own separeted damage instances so the shield only triggers vs the physical damage instance. Other commonly used interpretation is that each different damage type also are an extra/additional damage and that each extra damage is calculated with its own damage instance.
Hmm... it is unfortunate that Foundry does it this way. I have grown very fond of the vtt in the short time I've used it, and while I can agree that is technically what the exact wording of the rules would seem to say, I don't think I would ever run it that way. I don't find it reasonable that a shield carried by a husk zombie is easier to cut in half than the same shield vs the same strike, but carried by a skeletal champion. The rationalization that the champion only needs to block 6 points of damage because it can ignore 5 doesn't do anything for me--the player may know how much damage is coming when they choose to shield block, but it still has to hit the shield before the skeletons body knows.
Oh well, this does not seem like one of those RAW vs RAI arguments that will ever have a satisfying consensus.
(Wait, last time I played Foundry didn't have weakness/resistance automation because there were simply too many weird cases to have it fully functional. Has there been an update since I played, or is this one of the mods or optional builds that adds it in with the understanding it's not always going to be accurate?)
Nothing in 1,2,3,4 explicitly says that there is zero amount of damage before step 3 though.
And it really absolutely makes zero sense that a shield would benefit from its wielder's resistance.
Or suffer from their weakness.
I agree and I believe that many GMs agree and changes this. But RAW is how its works because the game doesn't care about the verisimilitude in its rules.
(Wait, last time I played Foundry didn't have weakness/resistance automation because there were simply too many weird cases to have it fully functional. Has there been an update since I played, or is this one of the mods or optional builds that adds it in with the understanding it's not always going to be accurate?)
There's about a bit more than 1 year since IWR automation was added to foundry.
But it's clear that they done after IWR in code comments:
/** Post-IWR reductions from various sources (e.g., hardness) */
They current use this IWR (and block) order:
type IWRApplication =
| UnaffectedApplication
| ImmunityApplication
| WeaknessApplication
| ResistanceApplication
| DamageReductionApplication;
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If they wanted Shield block to trigger before Resistance and Weakness they would have said so, or had another trigger on it.
They could have easily have it say
" Trigger While you have your shield raised, you are hit from a physical attack."
Cause if its before resistance there is no distinction on a hit and taking damage, since nothing can reduce the hit to 0 damage.
to me its clear that the devs want it to happen after resistance and weakness, and have prob balanced shields with that in mind.
Yes some instances might feel wierd that the hard bones on a skeleton helps the shield, but its also the other way around.
buff spells that give resistance would reasonably also protect your gear, but would in that case not since the shield would take damage before resistance.
but sometimes you have to paint with broad strokes else we would have gotten tons of special cases on how mutch damage a shield takes,
and this way they dont have to bother with resistance runes and material for shields.
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If they wanted Shield block to trigger before Resistance and Weakness they would have said so, or had another trigger on it.
They could have easily have it say
" Trigger While you have your shield raised, you are hit from a physical attack."
Cause if its before resistance there is no distinction on a hit and taking damage, since nothing can reduce the hit to 0 damage.
to me its clear that the devs want it to happen after resistance and weakness, and have prob balanced shields with that in mind.
Yes some instances might feel wierd that the hard bones on a skeleton helps the shield, but its also the other way around.
buff spells that give resistance would reasonably also protect your gear, but would in that case not since the shield would take damage before resistance.but sometimes you have to paint with broad strokes else we would have gotten tons of special cases on how mutch damage a shield takes,
and this way they dont have to bother with resistance runes and material for shields.
So, if I hit with a sword a zombie (weakness Slashing 5) who can block with its shield, I will inflict 5 more damage to the shield than if I hit the zombie with a staff.
Should temporary hit points be reduced before the Shield Block happens ?
Temporary hit points are basically an temporary extra HP its counted as HP normally for all the aspects including shield blocking.
So yes if a damage would reduce by hardness and the excess damage would reduce only your temp HP and part of your shield HP this is what's happen when you use Shield Block reaction.
So, if I hit with a sword a zombie (weakness Slashing 5) who can block with its shield, I will inflict 5 more damage to the shield than if I hit the zombie with a staff.If they wanted Shield block to trigger before Resistance and Weakness they would have said so, or had another trigger on it.
They could have easily have it say
" Trigger While you have your shield raised, you are hit from a physical attack."
Cause if its before resistance there is no distinction on a hit and taking damage, since nothing can reduce the hit to 0 damage.
to me its clear that the devs want it to happen after resistance and weakness, and have prob balanced shields with that in mind.
Yes some instances might feel wierd that the hard bones on a skeleton helps the shield, but its also the other way around.
buff spells that give resistance would reasonably also protect your gear, but would in that case not since the shield would take damage before resistance.but sometimes you have to paint with broad strokes else we would have gotten tons of special cases on how mutch damage a shield takes,
and this way they dont have to bother with resistance runes and material for shields.inb4 "um ackchually zombies can't use reactions"
but yes, that is fundamentally correct
I am guessing the designers of the game did NOT intend for shields to be easier to destroy than in the hands of a creature with weakness than one with resistances.
This is really why I want one to chime in.
Anyone have a line on Bonner, Bulmahn, R-M, or Seifter? (Sounds like a law-firm)
I think you posted a link to a video where Bulmahn walks through the Shield Block mechanic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTKfepicXiE&feature=youtu.be&t=3597 Looking at 59:57 where the sequence starts, the transcript of the video:
1:00:00 GM: at you getting an armor class of nineteen
PLAYER: that is my armor class...
It's pretty common to many players and even GMs remember or asks if the player will block before said the damage. I have a champion player with a sturdy shield that almost always tries to block the attacks. It's not uncommon to me said "OK I will roll the damage and already subtract your hardness to speedup" specially when he still didn't have a resistance.
You cannot use gameplay videos as reference because it's not rare a GM or a player break the order to speedup the thing for any reason.
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(Wait, last time I played Foundry didn't have weakness/resistance automation because there were simply too many weird cases to have it fully functional. Has there been an update since I played, or is this one of the mods or optional builds that adds it in with the understanding it's not always going to be accurate?)There's about a bit more than 1 year since IWR automation was added to foundry.
Unclear what we were doing wrong, then. Played March of the Dead in August, and I had a lot of zombie tokens I had to manually add weaknesses to. Immunity to bleed was automatic, but at the time none of my monsters were taking 5 extra or reduced slashing damage, and when I looked it up found a year old thread where ftt devs said that it wouldn't be implemented until it was correct 99% of the time. Didn't realize it was already implemented by the time I was reading that.
Still disappointed that they chose to make shields weak to slashing damage when held by husk zombies, of course.
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Should temporary hit points be reduced before the Shield Block happens ?Temporary hit points are basically an temporary extra HP its counted as HP normally for all the aspects including shield blocking.
So yes if a damage would reduce by hardness and the excess damage would reduce only your temp HP and part of your shield HP this is what's happen when you use Shield Block reaction.
But Temporary hit points say that they are the first thing to go when you take damage, so that would be before the Shield Block if taking damage happens at step 4.
"when you take damage, reduce your temporary Hit Points first."
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My reading of the RAW is that you are in the process of taking damage from the 1st step. And you can Shield Block as soon as the end of step 2 because that is when you know that damage is of a physical type. And after that you go to step 3 and deftly avoid all this nonsense about your resistances and weaknesses applying to your shield.
Resistance applies after Shield block not before. Otherwise, it would mean that your shield benefits from your resistance, which makes zero sense.
I don't agree. It is all natural language. You just can't even be sure resistance is different from hardness.
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Should temporary hit points be reduced before the Shield Block happens ?Temporary hit points are basically an temporary extra HP its counted as HP normally for all the aspects including shield blocking.
So yes if a damage would reduce by hardness and the excess damage would reduce only your temp HP and part of your shield HP this is what's happen when you use Shield Block reaction.
But Temporary hit points say that they are the first thing to go when you take damage, so that would be before the Shield Block if taking damage happens at step 4.
"when you take damage, reduce your temporary Hit Points first."
The Shield Block doesn't change this. It's trigger is "While you have your shield raised, you would take damage from a physical attack." just before you take damage and then it will "prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to the shield’s Hardness. You and the shield each take any remaining damage". So after you reduced the damage by the shield hardness now you will take the remaining damage and then you will "reduce your temporary Hit Points first.".
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So I was wrong and the shield bock happens before the Step 3 (unfortunately this wasn't clarified in Remaster nor any FAQ). Yet I probably will keep using the foundry's automation for my online games due my lazyness! :P