MGKatana's page

MGKatana wrote:

In particular, this thread https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hzt&page=3?Garycon-Pathfinder-2E-Seminar -Did-anyone#103 had some interesting insights.

Link to actual post

And a disembedded version of the conversation

Joe M. wrote:
I haven't listened to the discussions of hp on shields. Could somebody who has explain how it works? How is damage from an attack distributed between the shield and the character?

Captain Morgan wrote:
I think the only hard data we have on it was what happened in the game trade media demo.

Joe M. wrote:
That sounds right (don't know if more was said in this seminar). I wasn't able to piece together, from folks confusing forum posts, exactly how this is supposed to work. E.g., if a shield has 8 hardness and blocks an attack that deals 10 damage, how is that distributed?

(A) Shield takes 8, character takes 2;
(B) Shield takes 10, character takes 2;
(C) Shield takes 10, character takes 0.

I would assume (A), but some posters made it sound like (B) or (C).

Mark Seifter wrote:
It's the simplest possible operation that still applies damage to both the shield and the PC (A would never apply damage to the shield under any circumstances): Reduce by hardness, then both shield and PC take what's left. The dwarf axe and shield fighter in my WftC game has tended to have even greater durability with her shield from this method than from dents, I think it hasn't been broken since the change, but that depends on the exact amount that's dishing out.

Joe M. wrote:
Thanks! I guess I was using "hardness" imprecisely :-P

Mark Seifter wrote:
No worries! In your example, that means shield and character both would reduce their HP total by 2 (assuming they don't have other resistance hijinks going on).

Edit:
Props to MGKatana for finding that.
I'm just making his post a bit easier to read and understand.

Thank you Dancing Wind, I just wanted to complete the quote.

FedoraFerret wrote:
So if we follow the same example, but the attack only did 6 damage, neither the shield nor the character would take anything?

Mark Seifter wrote:
Indeed so!

Or as is relevant in my group, a slightly more complex example: If the Redeemer Glimpse of Redemption's the boss's 30 damage attack for resistance 12 and the fighter blocks for 12, the incoming damage would be 6 to the fighter (who gained resistance 12) and 18 to the shield......except the boss doesn't want to take a big enfeebled for a mere 6 damage to the fighter and instead chooses to deal no damage, which protects everyone. Redeemer + Shield Fighter is a great team-up!

Based on some of the earlier references to Mark Seifer's posts on this subject, I went back and reviewed the forums. In particular, this thread https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42hzt&page=3?Garycon-Pathfinder-2E-Seminar -Did-anyone#103 had some interesting insights.

"Mark Seifter Designer Mar 21, 2019, 01:46 pm | Flag | List | Reply
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FedoraFerret wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Joe M. wrote:

Mark Seifter wrote:

Joe M. wrote:

Captain Morgan wrote:

Joe M. wrote:

I haven't listened to the discussions of hp on shields. Could somebody who has explain how it works? How is damage from an attack distributed between the shield and the character?
-------------------
I think the only hard data we have on it was what happened in the game trade media demo.
------------------
That sounds right (don't know if more was said in this seminar). I wasn't able to piece together, from folks confusing forum posts, exactly how this is supposed to work. E.g., if a shield has 8 hardness and blocks an attack that deals 10 damage, how is that distributed?

(A) Shield takes 8, character takes 2;
(B) Shield takes 10, character takes 2;
(C) Shield takes 10, character takes 0.

I would assume (A), but some posters made it sound like (B) or (C).
-----------------
It's the simplest possible operation that still applies damage to both the shield and the PC (A would never apply damage to the shield under any circumstances): Reduce by hardness, then both shield and PC take what's left. The dwarf axe and shield fighter in my WftC game has tended to have even greater durability with her shield from this method than from dents, I think it hasn't been broken since the change, but that depends on the exact amount that's dishing out.
--------------
Thanks! I guess I was using "hardness" imprecisely :-P
--------------
No worries! In your example, that means shield and character both would reduce their HP total by 2 (assuming they don't have other resistance hijinks going on).

So if we follow the same example, but the attack only did 6 damage, neither the shield nor the character would take anything?
----------------------------------------------------
Indeed so!

Or as is relevant in my group, a slightly more complex example: If the Redeemer Glimpse of Redemption's the boss's 30 damage attack for resistance 12 and the fighter blocks for 12, the incoming damage would be 6 to the fighter (who gained resistance 12) and 18 to the shield......except the boss doesn't want to take a big enfeebled for a mere 6 damage to the fighter and instead chooses to deal no damage, which protects everyone. Redeemer + Shield Fighter is a great team-up!"

While Mark did not speak to the where the Shield Block trigger timing was, his calculation on the attack did not apply the fighter's resistance (12 gained from the Redeemer's Glimpse of Redemption) to the shield.

Attack = 30
Shield = 30 - 12 (Hardness) = 18 damage
Fighter - 30 - 12 (Hardness) - 12 (Resistance) = 6 damage

This indicates that the damage calculation occurs either before Step 3 and/or the shield and fighter are treated as two separate entities for damage calculation and the IWR of each is not applicable to the other.
(Note: the forum post did not translate well and I've added dashed lines between the various postings in the quote.)

Baarogue wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Nelzy wrote:

If they wanted Shield block to trigger before Resistance and Weakness they would have said so, or had another trigger on it.

They could have easily have it say

" Trigger While you have your shield raised, you are hit from a physical attack."

Cause if its before resistance there is no distinction on a hit and taking damage, since nothing can reduce the hit to 0 damage.

to me its clear that the devs want it to happen after resistance and weakness, and have prob balanced shields with that in mind.

Yes some instances might feel wierd that the hard bones on a skeleton helps the shield, but its also the other way around.
buff spells that give resistance would reasonably also protect your gear, but would in that case not since the shield would take damage before resistance.

but sometimes you have to paint with broad strokes else we would have gotten tons of special cases on how mutch damage a shield takes,
and this way they dont have to bother with resistance runes and material for shields.

So, if I hit with a sword a zombie (weakness Slashing 5) who can block with its shield, I will inflict 5 more damage to the shield than if I hit the zombie with a staff.

inb4 "um ackchually zombies can't use reactions"

but yes, that is fundamentally correct

I am guessing the designers of the game did NOT intend for shields to be easier to destroy than in the hands of a creature with weakness than one with resistances.

This is really why I want one to chime in.

Anyone have a line on Bonner, Bulmahn, R-M, or Seifter? (Sounds like a law-firm)

I think you posted a link to a video where Bulmahn walks through the Shield Block mechanic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTKfepicXiE&feature=youtu.be&t=3597 Looking at 59:57 where the sequence starts, the transcript of the video:

1:00:00 GM: at you getting an armor class of nineteen
PLAYER: that is my armor class
GM: now is that your armor class with your shield raised?
PLAYER: it is
GM: okay so it is going to hit you would you like to shield block?
PLAYER: sure
GM: alright try so here comes the damage it does eight points of damage which I believe gets to the hardness of your shield
PLAYER: okay yes the hardness is five
GM: so well here's what happens of the eight damage five is reduced by the hardness and the three that remaining is applied to both you and the shield's hit points
PLAYER: okay so my shield is now as >>>
GM: so your shields taking a bit of a ding and you take three points of damage because it hit you it can and dealt damage it can then still grab you which is what it does with its second action

There is also a second Bulmahn video which uses the same Shield Block timing of triggering after a successful hit but before damage is calculated. However, it is of a 2nd edition playtest so I don't give it much weight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kRaK-5uvrY&feature=youtu.be&t=1325

Neither video deals with the immunity/weakness/resistance issue but Bulmahn's use of the timing of the trigger for the Shield Block after a successful hit but before calculation of the damage is clear. If that timing of the trigger is correct, then the IW&R issue is moot.

I'm in the camp of: If you were successfully hit you would take damage. That means that the decision to Raise your Shield happens after you are hit but before damage is calculated. Part of my reason is found in on Pg 404 Armor Class which states that "the result of an attack roll must meet or exceed you AC to be successful, which allows your foe to deal damage to you." and triggers the Shield Block reaction.

You would then go through the process of determining the amount (which ultimately could be zero), with Step 1, Roll Damage Dice, being where the Hardness of a Shield is deducted after a Shield Block. Then Steps 2-4 to the each of the Shield and Wielder separately.

One of my issues with applying the effects of Shield Block after Step 3 of Apply Immunities, Weakness and Resistances (IW&R), is that would imbue the Shield with the Wielder's IW&R and logically apply the Shield's IW&R to the wielder.

If the attack did 15 points of slashing damage and the wielder has Resistance 5 to slashing, effectively the Shield would be given that benefit as well since the damage it takes is reduced by the wielder's Resist Slashing 5 if applied after Step 3. The converse would also be true if the attack also applied poison, the Shield's immunity to poison would ignore that damage for both the Shield and the Wielder.