My biggest problem with Golem antimagic is that it felt like a mechanic for a different system super imposed over PF2. It doesn’t interact at all with 4 degrees of success, just targeting the creature was enough to trigger everything, and how many adventure designers could really be expected to know how difficult some golems would be for some parties at certain levels based upon whether strong magical options were available at those levels? Golems were overly complex puzzle encounters that nearly remove the D20 from determining the outcome of the encounter. Even worse, they removed all other tactical magic use as well because of how poorly the limits of what being unaffected by spells were defined.
Yes I always viewed them as puzzle encounters as Golems never really did enough damage. My players always have a range of attack options so it never took too long for them to work it out. In generally my players find vulnerabilities quickly so any vulnerability is serious weakness in a monster.
Defintely the wording in Golem antimagic that triggers on targetting - technically you don't have to make a to hit roll - is problematic, probably wasn't intended, and should be fixed.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Your "2/3" comment just doesn't make sense as you are averaging saved and unsaved damage for the kineticist case, while not averaging hit and miss damage for the martial.
But I do average hit and miss damage for the martial. Hit damage is reduced by half and miss damage is unaffected anyway. So your damage expectation for a martial is half of what it should be (as you don't deal any of your damage on a miss outside some very specific builds). For the Kineticist, you do 2/3rd or your damage on failed saves and 1/3rd on successful saves. Because of the resistance, your damage output is reduced to a third. So the Kineticist is much more affected by the resistance than martials.
And then you add that 1-action EB is nearly cancelled by the resistance, that Thermal Nimbus or Steam Knight are cancelled, that Desert Wind is cancelled outside Aerial Boomerang and you end up with a fourth of your damage output.
Unless you explain me that Kineticists do much more damage than martials, you end up with the conclusion that the Kineticist is much more affected by the resistance than martials.
It's one that any wood kineticist or anyone one dipping into wood is likely to take. That's gonna be a good number of builds.
So, that's one Impulse. Great? Not really great. I'd add Winter Sleet and that's nearly it. And these are the Impulses that are spreading the most ink on the Internet (especially Winter Sleet).
The precision martials can have some problems as some adventures are full of incorporeal and oozes and are straight immune to precision damage. If you combine a bit of resistance with that it is very effective defence.
Swarms are a pain for Precision martials. But that's a bit outside the discussion as we are speaking about Golems.
I personally don't think it matters if Kineticists are comparable to martials against Bastions. What matters is whether Kineticists against Bastions is a better match up than Kineticists against Golems. Even with a second effective element for slowing the enemy, as pointed out earlier, that means that any kineticist who doesn't have the damaging element, but does have the slowing element will have one turn where they can do something, and then they are pretty much out of the fight.
I personally don't think it matters if Kineticists are comparable to martials against Bastions. What matters is whether Kineticists against Bastions is a better match up than Kineticists against Golems. Even with a second effective element for slowing the enemy, as pointed out earlier, that means that any kineticist who doesn't have the damaging element, but does have the slowing element will have one turn where they can do something, and then they are pretty much out of the fight.
We already covered that point and we just disagree. It's a matter of what's best between being "average or bad" or "good or useless". Different people will answer differently. Also, it depends on the level, lower level Kineticists may prefer the new version where high level Kineticists will certainly prefer the old one.
I personally don't think it matters if Kineticists are comparable to martials against Bastions. What matters is whether Kineticists against Bastions is a better match up than Kineticists against Golems. Even with a second effective element for slowing the enemy, as pointed out earlier, that means that any kineticist who doesn't have the damaging element, but does have the slowing element will have one turn where they can do something, and then they are pretty much out of the fight.We already covered that point and we just disagree. It's a matter of what's best between being "average or bad" or "good or useless". Different people will answer differently. Also, it depends on the level, lower level Kineticists may prefer the new version where high level Kineticists will certainly prefer the old one.
A kineticist with the right damage type is still good against a bastion, not average. If your damage type bypasses the resistance you get to do all of the things that you built your character to do, which should still qualify as good. The problem with the antimagic is that it just overrides everything other than damage type about your abilities. Against a golem you are just sitting still and targeting the creature with 3 blasts a turn because attack rolls don't matter. The fight has been trivialized as long as everyone keeps you alive and you are making no active choices about how to play. The situation is even worse if your damage type only slows the creature.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would say "one enemy resists your normal tactics so you need to use different ones" is just normal, good game design. One thing I would point out is if there's a reasonable expectation you're going to encounter things with Resistance: 15 to your schtick, that does increase the value of having a change-up. Like the bastion resists elemental blasts, but it doesn't resist walls. Kineticists who rely mostly on auras and non-overflow impulses might want a solid overflow impulse in their pocket for this kind of fight; particularly one that targets Reflex.
You do get Reflow Elements at level 11, and sometimes "run away and come back with better tactics" is the right idea.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If your damage type bypasses the resistance you get to do all of the things that you built your character to do
You can only use one of your elements. And if you also need to Extract Element first it's even worse. So it's below normal (whatever you call it, average or good).
The problem with the antimagic is that it just overrides everything other than damage
I quite agree, it was bad design. But in terms of efficiency, nothing has really changed between old and new design (if Bastion is a good description of the new design). I don't judge on "boring" as it's very player-dependent (and obliterating enemies is hardly boring to me).
it is perfectly fine for people to have differences of opinion about design choices, so I am not trying to suggest that my perspective is right and other people's are wrong.
However, under Golem Anti-magic extracting element did nothing because it didn't make the golem susceptible to an element not listed in the ability. So a Bastion is inherently more vulnerable, as it has its listed damage type that will bypass resistance, but is also susceptible to the element that it would otherwise be immune to. So minimally, shouldn't that leave the difference a wash?
With multiple gates I don't think many Kineticists are likely to find themselves without strong options to use in a Bastion fight.
The precision martials can have some problems as some adventures are full of incorporeal and oozes and are straight immune to precision damage. If you combine a bit of resistance with that it is very effective defence.Swarms are a pain for Precision martials. But that's a bit outside the discussion as we are speaking about Golems.
That is exactly the discussion that we are having about Golems and Bastions.
And yes, we are talking about both. You might only be talking about Golems though.
But 'swarms are to Swashbuckler as bastions are to Kineticist' is a nearly perfect analogy.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Do you agree on those numbers?
If I take one of your examples because it's telling: The Storm Spiral Kineticist with Desert Wind does an average of 33 damage against a Low Reflex enemy (as Golems tend to be) and only 12 if they hit the Bastion Resistance for a total of roughly 2/3rd damage reduction. Meanwhile, the Guisarme Fighter does 45 damage with 2 attacks and 28 if it hits the resistance for a reduction of slightly more than a third. So the damage reduction hits the Kineticist twice more than it hits the Fighter resulting in a rather big damage difference in the end.
So, yes, I agree with all your numbers and stick with my conclusion: The Kineticist suffers a lot more from the Resistance. And most of your examples are taking into account massively optimized Kineticists when I'm just talking about a d10 Fighter. If I bring the Giant Barbarian, your Kineticist will look really really small.
37 or 42. 4d12+1d10 = 31.5, +5 DW if the impulse has multiple targets, +10 if it only has one. Leading to, after 15 resistance, expected 22 or 27.
3 types of damage so I've applied the resistance to all of them. Unless there's a specific case for resistance to spells that I don't know about you have to consider each instance of damage separately. And even in that case, Desert Wind extra damage is negated by the Physical Resistance.
Also, I did it on Citricking's tool so it's exactly how your damage is reduced. But I agree I chose the perfect example. Anyway, most of your other examples were similar: You forget about the half damage on successful saves, you only consider super optimized Impulses as if everyone was playing an Air Kineticist with Desert Wind, etc...
Not because of any special build tricks, but because that character can access so many potential NPC weaknesses.
As a long time Alchemist player I can tell you for sure that it's not that good. And Alchemist can exploit alignment weakness which is rather common.
Just gonna join in again because I like the bastion spell resistance, Golem Antimagic was frustrating in that it would dramatically reduce even effective area damage to like a couple of dice, no matter how powerful the spell was. No one can tell me a Wood Golem reducing a Fireball's damage by 5 (16 damage average) is somehow worse than it taking 2d6 (7 damage average) from it.
Plus, old Golem was about having the right spell prepared for the occasion, which you couldn't guarentee, but now they're still hardy but you're gonna be able to slip em up, slow them down, etc. without having to worry about "Is this the right spell or not?"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I will fully agree with you that against a single tough target like the bastion, a kineticist who spends no feats trying to increase their impulse damage won't do as much as a fighter built fully optimized for single target combat.
It's not about "doing as much" but about being much more affected.
For example, against a low Reflex high AC opponent, a level 14 d10 Fighter attacking twice does an average of 45.5 damage if it hits no resistance and 28.3 damage against a Bastion for a loss of 38% damage.
A level 14 10-strength Fire Kineticist using EB + Flying Flame + Thermal Nimbus + Fire Aura Junction + Fire Impulse Junction (a very classical damage oriented Pyrokineticist) does 56.5 damage against a level 14 enemy but only 19.7 against the Bastion for a loss of 65% damage.
So I just say that the Kineticist is much more affected than the Fighter.
Now, I agree that having the right element will be easier at low level than having an Adamantine Weapon. At high level, I've seen many players using an Adamantine weapon as their main weapon (but the choice between Adamantine, Silver and Cold Iron exists so it's not a given).
No one can tell me a Wood Golem reducing a Fireball's damage by 5 (16 damage average) is somehow worse than it taking 2d6 (7 damage average) from it.
Yes, it's equivalent. But considering how Golem Antimagic works, you're not supposed to use your highest level spells but low level ones/Cantrips/focus Spells that will do less damage on average.
As far as Desert Wind goes, the only damaging air impulse that "has a single target" for the purposes of double bonus damage is the elemental blast. None of the other damaging impulses actually have targets at all (they're all area effects), which is why for general purposes of the lower damage it refers to "a damaging air impulse that affects [rather than targets] at least one creature in your kinetic aura."
So the elemental blast is doing slashing damage, the Desert Winds double extra is also doing slashing, no double application of the resistance. If you're air/earth/metal you can use Two-Element Infusion to get d8 blast with pure slashing damage instead of your air d6, but at that point you can also extract element (because it's made of metal) to totally remove the resistance.
Storm Spiral would potentially face multiple resistances (depending on the never nailed down "instance of damage" ruling) negating various damage components, but if used it also would only get the +1 rather than +2 damage against one enemy (not target!) "affected" inside the aura.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think it's been said, but just in case it's gotten lost, there is no family of creatures that will replace golems. My understanding of what has been said about these creatures is that the classic types of golem are likely to remain, but as separate monsters with no cohesive identity as a family.
If in this disumcussion we use "bastions" in the sense of individual creatures who used to belong to the golem family, carry on, but from what has been said I don't think we will necessarily be able to draw conclusions about the design of all bastions from what we expect will be family traits because they aren't a family. If it so happens they all end up having magic and physical resistance, that should probably be seen as a coincidence of the fact that they're being adapted from highly defensive monsters, rather than because a flesh bastion is a variant of a clay bastion or stone bastion etc.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Like we knew from the Kineticist playtest that the Kineticist was not supposed to excel at single target damage, it was certainly not intended to challenge classes like the fighter and the barbarian who are the kings at that sort of thing. The fighter is supposed to be better than the kineticist in any sort of fight that's against a single target party level +3. The Kineticist is going to excel instead in the fight that's like six creatures of party level -2.
As a GM you can handle "one class is specifically disadvantaged against this creature" buy having fewer fights that are "the party against one creature.".
For example, against a low Reflex high AC opponent, a level 14 d10 Fighter attacking twice does an average of 45.5 damage if it hits no resistance and 28.3 damage against a Bastion for a loss of 38% damage.
A level 14 10-strength Fire Kineticist using EB + Flying Flame + Thermal Nimbus + Fire Aura Junction + Fire Impulse Junction (a very classical damage oriented Pyrokineticist) does 56.5 damage against a level 14 enemy but only 19.7 against the Bastion for a loss of 65% damage.So I just say that the Kineticist is much more affected than the Fighter.
The particular bastion we are talking about has the fire trait. Which means the classic fire kineticist build you're talking about can extract elements in the first action and then proceed to do the full 56 damage per round, compared to your fighter's 28.
No, it's immune to fire, so extract elements would leave it with resist 14 against fire. Extract reduces immunity to any of your impulse damage types to its level in resistance, and lets you ignore any resistances to any damage types your impulses do.
If the fire kineticist has access to b/p/s or cold on its elemental blast via feats it would face no resistance to those after using extract elements, and no resistance to cold from Thermal Nimbus. All fire stuff still faces resist 14 against fire. If it had a poison blast via earth or wood and Versatile Blasts, it would face resist 14 to poison.
{Side note; they really should have made the Brass bastion have metal trait instead of or in addition to the fire trait. Here's hoping that the new Monster Core entries incorporate the two returning elements well. This one seems to have slipped through. I mean maybe they want to keep it connected to the fire plane, but...Brass...}
In practice this almost doesn't matter. Extract works against things made of your element even if it lacks the trait, so all metal constructs and creatures are vulnerable to a metal kineticist using Extract Elements. Similarly, all the metal impulses that care ask if something is made of metal, not if it has the trait.
The only exception seems to be the resist metal junction, which does require the metal trait to have physical resistance against its attacks. So a fire (or water) resistance junction would grant resistance against the Brass Bastion's physical attacks, not just the add on fire damage. Metal kineticist would not similarly benefit if they took the resist junction, but all their offense works.
I think it's been said, but just in case it's gotten lost, there is no family of creatures that will replace golems. My understanding of what has been said about these creatures is that the classic types of golem are likely to remain, but as separate monsters with no cohesive identity as a family.
If in this disumcussion we use "bastions" in the sense of individual creatures who used to belong to the golem family, carry on, but from what has been said I don't think we will necessarily be able to draw conclusions about the design of all bastions from what we expect will be family traits because they aren't a family. If it so happens they all end up having magic and physical resistance, that should probably be seen as a coincidence of the fact that they're being adapted from highly defensive monsters, rather than because a flesh bastion is a variant of a clay bastion or stone bastion etc.
This is correct. Personally, I'd rather we don't get many of the old golems officially converted at all because its so easy to do and I'd rather page space go to new monsters. But given Monster Core is meant to be a "greatest hits" collection that gives GM's a complete baseline to utilize without needing to buy older bestiaries... I imagine we will get a few.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Certainly it would be strange if we didn't get a Frankenstein's monster type "Stitchflesh Amalgam" or some such that was powered by lightning and may occasionally betray hints of sapience when the preserved neurons get overestimated.
|
Like we knew from the Kineticist playtest that the Kineticist was not supposed to excel at single target damage, it was certainly not intended to challenge classes like the fighter and the barbarian who are the kings at that sort of thing. The fighter is supposed to be better than the kineticist in any sort of fight that's against a single target party level +3. The Kineticist is going to excel instead in the fight that's like six creatures of party level -2.
As a GM you can handle "one class is specifically disadvantaged against this creature" buy having fewer fights that are "the party against one creature.".
Kineticist is supposed to be somewhere between Martial and Caster.
But a Caster will also work better than a Kineticist against a Remastered "golem" thanks to scrolls.
The Kineticist has no such equivalent resource.
But a Caster will also work better than a Kineticist against a Remastered "golem" thanks to scrolls.
The Kineticist has no such equivalent resource.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think the point about scrolls for casters is having lots of different types of spells. A kineticist isn’t going to be covering missing element types with scrolls.
|
|
Oh no?But a Caster will also work better than a Kineticist against a Remastered "golem" thanks to scrolls.
The Kineticist has no such equivalent resource.
No.
Casters have it easier because they can use any spell on their list thanks to scrolls, whatever its traits.Kineticists can only, with a feat, cast spells from scrolls that match the traits they already have ...
So, what Unicore said.
It’s not like any occult casters would love the Brass Bastion. Toss out a Slow, then plink with Telekinetic Projectile or Needle Darts for often no damage?
Sustain Phantom Orchestra for consistent small chip damage?
What are divine casters doing? Healing the melee guys I guess.
It’s not like any occult casters would love the Brass Bastion. Toss out a Slow, then plink with Telekinetic Projectile or Needle Darts for often no damage?
Sustain Phantom Orchestra for consistent small chip damage?
What are divine casters doing? Healing the melee guys I guess.
Which is still probably a lot more than they were doing against an equivalent golem.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A caster could also technically buy an adamantine shield and bypass the creature's resistance with needle darts. It isn't much, but it is something.
A caster could also technically buy an adamantine shield and bypass the creature's resistance with needle darts. It isn't much, but it is something.Adamantine chunk should be enough.
Add a Cantrip Deck and any PC is set.
The weird thing is (according to Neyths) an adamantine chunk is more expensive than a buckler or shield. All of them are cheaper than an adamantine weapon though.
|
|
The weird thing is (according to Neyths) an adamantine chunk is more expensive than a buckler or shield. All of them are cheaper than an adamantine weapon though.A caster could also technically buy an adamantine shield and bypass the creature's resistance with needle darts. It isn't much, but it is something.Adamantine chunk should be enough.
Add a Cantrip Deck and any PC is set.
Indeed. But chunk is level 0 whereas the others are level 8.
Also, item level being a constraining factor over price seems uncommon. Yeah, you could be playing in a smaller town with no high level items... But if you have 500 gp to drop on something to deal more damage to one very specific class of creature you probably can figure out how to get to a bigger city.
|
|
Also, item level being a constraining factor over price seems uncommon. Yeah, you could be playing in a smaller town with no high level items... But if you have 500 gp to drop on something to deal more damage to one very specific class of creature you probably can figure out how to get to a bigger city.
I play PFS. Item level is a hard limit.
|
|
Indeed. But chunk is level 0 whereas the others are level 8.If multiple types of an item exist, the title line gives the minimum level followed by a plus symbol (“+”). The description includes information on the base version of the item, and the Type entries at the bottom of the stat block lists the specifics for each version, including the level, Price, and any modified or added abilities of the different types.ADAMANTINE MATERIAL 8+Well, no. I'd say that chunk and ingot are both level 8.
Is that from Remastered ?
On AoN it is 0+.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
GM core page 253