I am ok with the marriage of narrative and mechanics that results in Cursebound Focus Powers having a drawback that makes you think twice about using them.
That said, maybe they could use a little boost in power - including for Focus Powers earned through other sources.
Maybe something like:
Cursebound Magic
The way you cast Focus Spells is different. Your Focus Spells gain the Cursebound trait. You can only cast one Focus Spell per round, refreshing at the start of your turn. When you cast a Focus Spell, reduce the number of actions used to cast it by one: from ◆◆◆ to ◆◆, from ◆◆ to ◆, or from ◆ or ↺ to ◇. Advance your Curse by one step.
Yeah, the curse being a double edged sword is very important to the theme of the class. But I don't think using them too much shutting off those powers is the answeer. Losing access to your powers just leaves you less effective the rest of the day, which means you're also less likely to be targeted and actually put at risk. The extreme curse is a much better example of an interesting risk/reward. A reroll every 10 minutes is a powerful ability, but doomed 2 is a helluva drug to take on for it.
I actually kind of wish you could hang out in your extreme curse and still refocus and keep using your focus spells. I also think fortune effects likely thr extreme curse are thematically appropriate and a good analogue of certain PF1 revelations. So maybe instead of advancing the curse of focus spells, oracles could gain a reaction:
Twist of Fate (fortune, oracle, concentrate)
Reaction
Trigger: you fail an attack roll, perception check. saving throw, or the one of the following skill checks: Intimidation, Performance, Religion, or the skill associated with your mystery.
Reroll the triggering check and use the new result. Your curse advances one stage. The manifestation of your curse tends to be obvious.
This would need some balancing around how often you can lower your curse because 3 rerolls per refocus cycle would be broken. And if you're not meant to lower your curse stages, things like major battle and major flames would need to shut off less of your options. But it also opens up interesting design space for feats like the Halfling Luck trees, letting you help allies reroll, misfortune enemies, or delay progressing your curse.
So... what if we reverse the relationship with Focus points for the Oracle?
casting the Focus spell does not require the use of the focus point, BUT You must refocus and expend focus points to lower your curse level
This sounds like it might be interesting. I would have to look into it more to see if and where it breaks down.
(And then refocus a second time to regain those focus points)
But adding this makes it much less interesting. Basically, compared to what Oracle currently has, this is equivalent to saying, 'Oracles have to spend 20 minutes to Refocus instead of 10 minutes.'
So... what if we reverse the relationship with Focus points for the Oracle?
casting the Focus spell does not require the use of the focus point, BUT You must refocus and expend focus points to lower your curse level
This sounds like it might be interesting. I would have to look into it more to see if and where it breaks down.
(And then refocus a second time to regain those focus points)But adding this makes it much less interesting. Basically, compared to what Oracle currently has, this is equivalent to saying, 'Oracles have to spend 20 minutes to Refocus instead of 10 minutes.'
So technically unlimited use of focus spells?
So technically unlimited use of focus spells?
Which part?
Focus spells are pretty much designed to be unlimited use on a daily measurement. Only limited use in each combat.
From what I am understanding of the partially defined proposal that Zoken44 is describing, an Oracle casts their cursebound focus spells (or maybe all focus spells) by progressing their curse up to their normal curse stage limits, then has to spend focus points and time after the battle to reduce the curse stage. So during any particular combat, the number of focus spells that you could cast is still limited.
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Finoan has my thought right. Theoretically unlimited in combat but limited by your curse (and All focus spells are considered Cursebound for an Oracle RAW already) SO the in-combat use would be limited by how much of the curse intensification you're willing to accept, though for this to work the OVERWHELMED effect would need to be reworked. Something like: You gain the Drained 1 condition, or if you already have it, increase your drained condition by 1. Drained condition/levels gained from this can be reduced by taking 10 minutes and expending focus points equal to the drained condition number. IF you have focus points left over, you may use them to reduce your curse by one degree per focus point spent.
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All focus spells are considered Cursebound for an Oracle RAW already
That isn't entirely accurate currently. Only focus spells with the Cursebound trait are cursebound.
All of the Oracle focus spells are printed with the Cursebound trait. And any Cleric focus spells that you get from the Domain Acumen feat have the Cursebound trait added - because that is what the Domain Acumen feat says to do.
But if you take Cleric Archetype and the Domain Initiate feat via Basic Dogma, then you can get the same Cleric focus spell without the Cursebound trait - because neither Cleric Archetype, Cleric Dedication, Basic Dogma, or Domain Initiate adds the Cursebound trait to the spell.
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To be fair, if I was a game developer looking at the Oracle Remaster, adding that to the Oracle definition would make sense. Change it so that any use of focus points increases the Oracle curse. But that would have to be paired with changing the Overwhelmed state of the Oracle curse to something that is usable - not the current 'now you can not use any focus spells for the rest of the day'.
Because it is really wonky that one of the best ways to play an Oracle (at least certain Mysteries) is to ignore their in-class focus spells and grab focus spells from an archetype.
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I don't think the curse should interact like that with Focus Spells. It makes things wonky when you grab Focus Spells outside your class. These should be 2 separate mechanisms.
I don't think the curse should interact like that with Focus Spells. It makes things wonky when you grab Focus Spells outside your class. These should be 2 separate mechanisms.
What would you suggest as a separate mechanism for progressing Oracle curse then?
Oracle should have something for curse mechanics. Otherwise mechanically it is just the Warpriest version of a Divine Sorcerer. The curse is what makes the Oracle class interesting to build characters with.
Probably having a different trigger to increase and decrease the curse that isn't to Cast a Focus Spell or Refocus.
Yet it's just easier just allow to zero your curse when refocus and removing the cursebound trait from Domain Acumen. This way the oracle will only link its curse to its Revelation Spells.
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What would you suggest as a separate mechanism for progressing Oracle curse then?
An easy solution is for cursebound spells to not be Focus Spells. They can be cantrips for example, increasing your Curse until it can no more increase. So the Focus Spell mechanism is entirely separated and works as intended.
Another solution is to remove Focus Spells entirely and turn the Oracle from a Focus Spell based class (something very far from unique) to a curse based class. Paizo would just need to increase the positive side effects of increasing your curse so it really makes the Oracle strong. As to what increases your curse, it can be something related to your Mystery like casting a Positive spell for Life Oracle or a Water/Air one for Tempest Oracle, Striking for a Battle Oracle, etc...
These are just examples, I don't defend any of them. But as of now, the Oracle Focus Spells don't really work: You have more Focus Points than Curse stages and there's a real strong point in grabbing Focus Spells outside your class (which should not be that interesting). Grabbing Focus Spells outside your class will always be possible and one obvious Dedication is the Psychic one, both because it's easy to grab and because it gives excellent Focus Spells. That's why I think putting too much incentive on Focus Spells makes balancing the Oracle extremely hard. Having the Curse working on its own principle would allow the Oracle to treat Focus Spells like any other class.
I agree with Finoan that the real problem with the oracle focus spells is the curse bound trait. I also agree with Super that decoupling the curse progression from focus spells is probably the right move. I still like the idea of a reroll based ability as a trigger. You could also do something like Unleash Psyche where you can choose to progress your curse at the start of your turn.
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So, if we're going to go all pie-in-the-sky about it, here's what *I* think would be cool.
- Oracles get a lot of their power from focus spells and the curse. Possibly go so far as to strip them down to the Psychic's 2 spell slots per rank, though that might be going a bit far.
- You don't *have* to invoke the curse... but it helps. Cursebound spells aren't inherently drawn from your curse in dangerous ways. They're close, though, and when you cast them, you can draw the curse out for additional power, granting you some extra additional benefit... but advancing the curse. Advancing the curse can have upsides and downsides.
- Once you max out your current curse level it doesn't turn the magic off. Oh, no. Instead, from then on until you manage to rest and recover, you *do* have to to curse-cast, for *every* spell, and every spell you casts gets both some benefit and some (potentially painful) flaw from having torn your personal hole in reality open wider than you can comfortably manage. Like, Flames oracles might well be taking 1 point of unresistable fire damage per level, or something equivalent. Serious stuff.
- The most minor effects are always on. They just are. There's no grace period at the beginning of the day before you invoke your curse the first time. You *are* a hole in the world. Have fun with that.
Basically, have the tradeoff of "you can pull power from your Curse, but there's a price" get a lot more significant and explicit, and make it an actual choice... while *also* making it opt-in enough so that the "cursebound" tag on a spell is an advantage, rather than a disadvantage.
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Nice. Lots of interesting ideas floating around.
No, there really isn't any need to defend them at this point. We are just kicking around unrefined concepts and ideas.
Going the other way and throwing out a really simple set of changes that would remove the pain points:
- Allow all stages of curse from level 1 rather than unlocking some of them at later levels.
- Overwhelmed means that you can't cast more focus spells until you refocus and reduce your curse stage.
- All focus spells that you get gain the Cursebound trait.
Realistically, I am expecting something more like that from the Remaster changes. Because it will be familiar and not character-redefining to existing characters and players.
But I would love to see some of these other ideas explored, refined, and published on Infinite.
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So using the Psychic inspiration idea maybe the revelation spells, and certain spells that can be added to your repertoire via subclass or feats gain the Cursebound trait.
The Cursebound trait allows you to CHOOSE to enhance it in a specific way, but this increases your curse
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Oh, and I got another one!
If cursebound is mostly opt-in... then we can have non-focus spells be cursebound, too. Like, a Flames oracle might find that *all* spells with the Fire trait were cursebound. A bones oracle might find the same thing for... well, we don't really have "Necromancy" anymore, but you get the idea.
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Oh, and I got another one!
If cursebound is mostly opt-in... then we can have non-focus spells be cursebound, too. Like, a Flames oracle might find that *all* spells with the Fire trait were cursebound. A bones oracle might find the same thing for... well, we don't really have "Necromancy" anymore, but you get the idea.
I feel a simple one would be that your cursebound slot spells can be heightened for free with 1 increase of the curse level unless they are already in your highest slots, in which case it would need 2 increases of the curse level.
And the last might apply to cursebound cantrips and focus spells too.
There's a lot of cool ideas here but has Finoan said, I don't think that designers will choice for any solution that contextually redesign the class. Wizards still have schools, witches still have their hexes as cantrips, clerics still have their spells stronger vs fiends, goodholy and evilunholy.
Probably the designers will just remove the overwhelmed state or recover it in a refocus or allow all stages of curse from level 1.
I just disagree that they will make "All focus spells that you get gain the Cursebound trait". It's more probably IMO that they just remove domains spells making it exclusive to Revelation Spells to not make the Oracle the only class that the focus spells must have an additional limit.
I wasn't to say the problem was the overwhelmed state, not the curse bound trait. I think a pain point for the class is that a lot of the penalties are about subtraction, taking away abilities you already had. Overwhelmed is the worst example of it, but the flame mystery gradually erodes at how reliably you use non-fire spells, and the major battle mystery does that to all spells. Those at least put you in an interesting state which has benefits, but limiting your options in okay isn't necessarily the most fun kind of risk/reward mechanic.
In PF1, Oracles were one of my favorite classes.
In PF2, they basically fell off of a cliff for me. I'll be curious to see if a remaster helps.
I'll be curious to see if a remaster helps.
I'm leaning towards unlikely. I don't expect the changes to be drastic enough. It is still going to be a PF2 Oracle at the end of the day.
But I guess it depends on why you like the PF1 Oracle and don't like the PF2 Oracle.
I wasn't to say the problem was the overwhelmed state, not the curse bound trait. I think a pain point for the class is that a lot of the penalties are about subtraction, taking away abilities you already had. Overwhelmed is the worst example of it, but the flame mystery gradually erodes at how reliably you use non-fire spells, and the major battle mystery does that to all spells. Those at least put you in an interesting state which has benefits, but limiting your options in okay isn't necessarily the most fun kind of risk/reward mechanic.
IMO the very concept of most mysteries is give you benefit in a single aspect in detriment of others.
The Flame mystery for example gives some reflex bonuses and the moderate curse gives you concealed and major curse gives you an aura that damages other creatures and a bit of damage into you. The aura ins't the best choice for an offensive casting mystery and risks friendly fire so IMO it could be changed to other effect like a fire shield but in general if you are focused into save and supportive and fire spells the concealed part of the curse isn't a big problem at all.Other example is the Battle Oracle, it gives the oracle some pretty good offensive and defensive martial abilities as trade of the curses being rage like effects but penalizes your cast if your enter into major curse as trade of to get +6 dmg bonus +1 status bonus for your martial attacks and fast healing equal to your level.
While Cosmos Oracles penalizes basically only penalizes your strength and some athletics maneuvers but if you are playing as ranged caster this isn't a big problem. Also the benefit of get physical resistance usually compensates well.
So the trade-off idea of the mysteries isn't bad. They need a revision and improvements to make then more attractive and bit less penalizing, yes! But it's more a question of individual in most curses improvements than a general change IMO.
The main problem IMO still in how the curse improves and limits your focus spells. If you want to keep a moderated curse effect active but don't want to enter in major or become overwhelmed for example you cannot use you own oracle focus spells, you need to get one or more focus spell from other classes to allow you to continue using your focus points freely without improves your curse and when you refocus you need to use a curse bound spell focus to put your curse back to moderate. That's the big problem IMO.
I hope they make the curse more dynamic early on too. The idea of ramping penalties and benefits is a pretty cool one, but there also isn't much of a ramp. For the first 10 levels of the game you're spending most of your time in minor or moderate, so there isn't really much of a build up.
And then it never progresses any further after getting your Major upgrade at 11 (since Extreme is more of a generic thing).
Having more of a progression from the get go would let the Oracle lean into that idea of ramping intensity, which is a theme the class kind of plays with but doesn't commit to enough to be satisfying (sort of a perennial pf2 problem though).
I do sort of like the idea of separating them from focus spells. As is now I feel like half the oracles I run into will waste focus points just for the sake of activating their curse benefit, and the other half will avoid their cursebound spells entirely because their mystery's curses are garbage. Both seem like design issues.
... I also hope they look at individual mystery balance more, for that same reason, but that also seems like something Paizo has opted to skip for the Remaster.
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I don't know if I really like the notion of "ramping up" (unless it's super fast but that doesn't feel like ramp up anymore). The issue with this design being that during most fights you won't have time to ramp up as everything will be over before you ever get there.
I'd prefer a "daily ramp up". You could have the possibility to get a massive boost when needed, but it increases the severity of your curse for the entire day. It's a bit like daily resources but with the curse severity as "cost".