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I couldn’t find if this is something that has been discussed or not, so if it has, please point me in the right direction. I am curious what will become of the six OGL Demon Lords. I could see some of them being killed off in the upcoming War of Immortals. This could also allow some Nascent Demon Lords to take over their realms and move up to full Demon Lord status. The six OGL Demon Lords include: Baphomet, Dagon, Jubilex, Kostchtchie, Orcus, and Pazuzu. My thoughts on potential outcomes are below.
Baphomet - As a Demon Lord it seems like Baphomet has already been on a different trajectory for a while. I could easily see that story progress with Baphomet abandoning the Outer Rifts altogether. Baphomet pulled the Ivory Labyrinth from Hell to the Outer Rifts, so I could easily see him packing up and moving his realm to the Maelstrom. Baphomet was never treated well by Lamashtu, and I am not sure he is particularly invested in the Outer Rifts. I could easily see Baphomet just being done with being a Demon Lord and being done with the Outer Rifts.
Now this is a little more out there, but I could see Baphomet joining the ranks of the Protean Lords. Labyrinths, mazes, and puzzles all seem like things proteans would be into. And as part of his apotheosis into a Protean Lord, I could see Baphomet’s star brand on his forehead turning into his Protean Crown.
Dagon - I could see Dagon easily going one of two directions. Golarion mythology indicates the Dagon was a Qlippoth Lord before turning into a Demon Lord. For me, Dagon never felt like his grasp on being a Demon Lord was particularly strong, so I could see him reverting to a Qlippoth Lord and using his Qlippoth name instead of his Demon name. Alternatively, the mythology could be incorrect and the extremely ancient Dagon was not a Qlippoth Lord at all, but instead was a Great Old One and has been playing Demon Lord for whatever reasons. The War of Immortals could be the impetus for Dagon to go back to proper Great Old One status.
Jubilex - For me, if Dagon felt like he didn’t have a firm grasp on being a Demon Lord, Jubilex’s Demon Lord status was hanging on by a thread. Jubilex also started off as a Qlippoth Lord and it would make so much sense for Jubilex to abandon the whole Demon Lord thing and revert to using their Qlippoth name and reinstating their Qlippoth Lord status.
Kostchtchie - I could absolutely see Kostchtchie getting taken out in the War of Immortals. Kostchtchie is pretty entrenched in the OGL so that is a problem. But, considering that Baba Yaga has been so over Kostchtchie for a while, the War of Immortals is the perfect opportunity for her to clean up that loose end. I am not suggesting that Baba Yaga would take Kostchtchie out herself, but I could see her arranging things so that he gets taken out.
Orcus - Orcus is an interesting case. Initially, Orcus was considered an obscure Demon Lord on Golarion, but as the editions progressed we saw Orcus utilized more. It could be that the War of Immortals sends Orcus back into obscurity. But, Orcus is also a good candidate to get knocked off. I can only imagine that Zura, Kabriri, and Urgathoa would all be delighted to grab a piece of his divine portfolio.
Pazuzu - Dead. He is sooooo dead. Lamashtu has had it out for Pazuzu ever since he betrayed her and left her for dead. Lamashtu has long been waiting for a convenient excuse to hunt down Pazuzu and eliminate him for good. The War of Immortals is the perfect opportunity, while the other powers of the Outer Rifts are distracted, Lamashtu can finally kill off Pazuzu without concern for consequences.
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Some info from a few weeks ago (bolded the most relevant points) :
Three of the main reasons we draw so heavily from real-world mythology for deities and monsters are:
1) Familiarity. While not everyone knows all of these, most gamers know some of them, and seeing familiar creatures or deities helps to build in a sense of nostalgia and comfort to those who come to the setting.
2) Inspiring. Human history is replete with inspiring and amazing stories, and they've inspired us in many ways to build Golarion or become gamers in the first place, so including these elements honors that inspiration.
3) Tradition. Many of the names you post above have been a part of Pathfinder and its predecessor RPGs for decades, all the way back to the start of things when D&D was first created in the 70s.
As for your other questions...
The following are inspired by real-world mythology: Aldinach, Nocticula, Socothbenoth
The following were invented by Paizo (many of them by me): Andirifkhu, Angazhan, Cyth-V'sug, Deskari, Gogunta, Izyagna, Jezelda, Kabriri, Shamira, Sifkesh, Shivaska, Sithhud, Urxehl, Xoveron, Yhidothrus, Zevgavizeb, and Zura.
This one was invented by Gary Gygax and we could only use him due to him being in the Tome of Horrors: Jubilex. Note that a typo in Tome of Horrors means that the actual original spelling of this demon's name, Jubliex, is NOT open content. Regardless, we won't be able to do anything with Jubilex going forward with the remastered rules, which is fine.
Kostchtchie is a weird one. He's based on the real world story of Koschei from Russian mythology, but the version of him specifically as a giant cold demon is very much from Gary Gygax, so he's one we'll also be staying away from in the remastered rules. We'll be moving toward Sithhud as our big cold demon in the setting.
Oh, I did miss that they were moving toward Sithhud, that's wonderful news! Thank you for sharing.
I remain curious to see how Sithhud's return to power is handled.
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That post left out four of those mentioned from the original poster above, since they weren't really a part of that thread's question, so here's a bit more context for them:
Baphomet: His association with minotaurs and him looking like a minotaur is OGL content, so those elements aren't part of the remaster. We've already gone with a different appearance for him based on mythology, so it's just losing the minotaur stuff in the remaster.
Dagon: We'll more or less be using this one in the same way we did in 1st edition. He's based on a combination of real-world mythology, Lovecraft's writings, and a lot of our own creation.
Orcus: The name is mythological, but the fact of him being a skull-headed demon of necromancy with a famous magic death wand is 100% OGL. Furhtermore, not only has this demon lord had his story told much more than most others by D&D, I myself was one of those who helped tell one of those stories in Adventure Path form in Savage Tide. All of this means that we're pretty much leaving him behind; we've got lots of other demon lords associated with undeath and necromancy.
Pazuzu: The content we're using and the content D&D used both come from real world lore and mythology, but the fact that we brought in Lamashtu in a more significant way means that Pathfinder has a bigger investment in Pazuzu, since these two having a conflict is from mythology. In any event, Pazuzu is sticking around.
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I am curious what will become of the six OGL Demon Lords. I could see some of them being killed off in the upcoming War of Immortals. ...
My impression is that such OGL content simply won't appear in any future materials. Luis Loza has said, for example, that this will be true for the deities which are strongly connected to the OGL. They just won't ever be mentioned again.
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Baphomet: His association with minotaurs and him looking like a minotaur is OGL content, so those elements aren't part of the remaster. We've already gone with a different appearance for him based on mythology, so it's just losing the minotaur stuff in the remaster.
I'm REALLY excited to see how you bring in Baphomet. As a real-world pagan, he's always been sort of on the sidelines but present in my real life practice, his iconography has always been pretty consistent; I always thought the minotaur association was weird anyway.
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I'm REALLY excited to see how you bring in Baphomet. As a real-world pagan, he's always been sort of on the sidelines but present in my real life practice, his iconography has always been pretty consistent; I always thought the minotaur association was weird anyway.
Baphomet: His association with minotaurs and him looking like a minotaur is OGL content, so those elements aren't part of the remaster. We've already gone with a different appearance for him based on mythology, so it's just losing the minotaur stuff in the remaster.
We'll be starting by angling away from the minotaur stuff and probably changing the association with mazes for dungeons/prisons, to build off of the new lore we created for him in Wrath of the Righteous.
We'll be starting by angling away from the minotaur stuff and probably changing the association with mazes for dungeons/prisons, to build off of the new lore we created for him in Wrath of the Righteous.I'm REALLY excited to see how you bring in Baphomet. As a real-world pagan, he's always been sort of on the sidelines but present in my real life practice, his iconography has always been pretty consistent; I always thought the minotaur association was weird anyway.
Baphomet: His association with minotaurs and him looking like a minotaur is OGL content, so those elements aren't part of the remaster. We've already gone with a different appearance for him based on mythology, so it's just losing the minotaur stuff in the remaster.
You guys always nail it, tbh. We're lucky to have you.
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My impression is that such OGL content simply won't appear in any future materials. Luis Loza has said, for example, that this will be true for the deities which are strongly connected to the OGL. They just won't ever be mentioned again....
I am curious what will become of the six OGL Demon Lords. I could see some of them being killed off in the upcoming War of Immortals. ...
True for some deities connected to the OGL. Not necessarily for all such deities.
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Thank you James for sharing your insights. They are always deeply appreciated.
And thank you everyone else for chiming in to share information. It is most helpful!
As for Dagon, I have always had no idea why he is a demon lord or a qlippoth lord in Lost Omens. I mean, he is from the Cthulhu Mythos right? Shouldn't that make him a Great Old One instead?
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Dagon is from Mesopotamian mythology.
His lovecraft incarnation was a massive Deep One, not a Great Old One.
As for Dagon, I have always had no idea why he is a demon lord or a qlippoth lord in Lost Omens. I mean, he is from the Cthulhu Mythos right? Shouldn't that make him a Great Old One instead?
Dagon is probably best known today as the god of the Philistines in the biblical myth of Samson. In it, the temple that Samson brings down around himself and the Philistines is that of Dagon. There isn't any archeological evidence that the Philistines actually worshiped Dagon, though.
I'm pretty sure that Great Old Ones are mentionned long before bestiary 4 in APs. Early AP had monster from lovecraftian mythos show up quite a lot, and I'm pretty sure that there was an article about them in at least one of these Lovecraft themed module.
I think second darkness had it? In the second module I believe, where the PC have to investigate a recently fallen asteroid, which spawned a full Lovecraft menagerie. If I'm right, then it was even before the first rulebook of pathfinder was even out.
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Baphomet: His association with minotaurs and him looking like a minotaur is OGL content, so those elements aren't part of the remaster. We've already gone with a different appearance for him based on mythology, so it's just losing the minotaur stuff in the remaster.
Ummm...correct me if I'm wrong, but Baphomet was killed permanently in Wrath of the Righteous.
As I recall, Nocticula snuck in there somewhere and killed him the first time. Then, a little later, the players killed him off the second, and last, time in the Ivory Labyrinth.
He's deader than a door nail. He's DEAD.
Why continue to use him??
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I'm real glad to hear Pazuzu and Dagon are sticking around. Pazuzu and Lamashtu's feud is a fun bit of worldbuilding, and I've got a big ol' love for the qlippoth-turned-demon Demon Lords; I think they're neat.
Also, my guess for why Dagon isn't a Great Old One most likely stems from the fact that Great Old Ones weren't really a thing in early Pathfinder. As far as I know Dagon is first mentioned in Book of the Damned Volume II: Lords of Chaos, while Great Old Ones first appear in Bestiary 4.
We first started bringing in Lovecraftian elements to Golarion in Rise of the Runelords, many years before both Book of the Damned II and Bestiary 4. Dagon's not a Great Old One because there's a D&D tradition of him being a demon lord, but also because in Lovecraft's own writings he wasn't a Great Old One. He's something between, which is why we gave the elder deep one in Bestiary 5 the ability to grant spells to clerics.
Dagon was also one of the very first "monsters" to appear in Lovecraft's writings, and his development of Great Old Ones and the like wouldn't start seeing print until years after his short story "Dagon" was written. It's worth noting that Lovecraft's Great Old Ones aren't "pick ups" from mythology, but are brand new creations, so that's another reason why we didn't make Dagon a Great Old One in Pathfinde.r
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Baphomet: His association with minotaurs and him looking like a minotaur is OGL content, so those elements aren't part of the remaster. We've already gone with a different appearance for him based on mythology, so it's just losing the minotaur stuff in the remaster.
Ummm...correct me if I'm wrong, but Baphomet was killed permanently in Wrath of the Righteous.
As I recall, Nocticula snuck in there somewhere and killed him the first time. Then, a little later, the players killed him off the second, and last, time in the Ivory Labyrinth.
He's deader than a door nail. He's DEAD.
Why continue to use him??
Baphomet explicitly isn't meant to be killed in Wrath, funnily enough.
Adventure presents him as unkillable obstacle that pcs need to run from and basically says "if pcs somehow beat him, just give them a mythic tier for such legendary deed"
(that's why he is alive in 2e canon, because even though he is easy to cheese with mythic rules, he wasn't meant to be fight able at the moment he appeared in the story :'D)
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Baphomet: His association with minotaurs and him looking like a minotaur is OGL content, so those elements aren't part of the remaster. We've already gone with a different appearance for him based on mythology, so it's just losing the minotaur stuff in the remaster.
Ummm...correct me if I'm wrong, but Baphomet was killed permanently in Wrath of the Righteous.
As I recall, Nocticula snuck in there somewhere and killed him the first time. Then, a little later, the players killed him off the second, and last, time in the Ivory Labyrinth.
He's deader than a door nail. He's DEAD.
Why continue to use him??
Baphomet explicitly isn't meant to be killed in Wrath, funnily enough.
Adventure presents him as unkillable obstacle that pcs need to run from and basically says "if pcs somehow beat him, just give them a mythic tier for such legendary deed"
(that's why he is alive in 2e canon, because even though he is easy to cheese with mythic rules, he wasn't meant to be fight able at the moment he appeared in the story :'D)
Yup; while Wrath of the Righteous for sure gave PCs the chance to kill Baphomet AND Deskari, for the purpouses of our assumptions going forward with the setting's lore, only Deskari is dead. Baphomet got away with a humiliating defeat but he DID get away in our official lore.
If in your game your PCs killed him, though, you shoud for sure keep that going at your table! Sub in a different demon lord in any products we do that talk about Baphomet at your table in this case, be it one you make up or a close analog like Abraxas or Haggenti.
As for why? Becasue he's one of the few demon lords we have in our game that has a recognizable look that ties into a lot of real-world lore—which for a TTRPG game equates to nostalgia and familiarity for gamers, and gives them a recognizable comfort/interest point when deciding if they wanna give Pathfinder a try.
Not sure if I got this right. So, in the Cthulhu Mythos, Dagon is the name of a race (advanced deep ones?), not the name of an individual, right? Just like Medusa is the name of an individual in Greek mythology but is the name of a race in Pathfinder? I have no idea if the medusa race is still a thing in Pathfinder Remaster though.
Baphomet is usable in Pathfinder Remaster? I thought that, while Baphomet is indeed a public domain, Baphomet as a demon lord who is worshiped by minotaurs is a purely D&D creation (though it seems to me that the D&D Baphomet and the Pathfinder Baphomet look vastly different).
Will the statistics for Deskari written and revealed eventually? I mean, will his areas of concern, edicts, anathema, and divine attribute be published someday, or at least posted on Paizo Blog? I know Deskari is dead and will never be resurrected (not sure if Pharasma has already judged his soul or not though), but I really wish to see those information.
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Not sure if I got this right. So, in the Cthulhu Mythos, Dagon is the name of a race (advanced deep ones?), not the name of an individual, right? Just like Medusa is the name of an individual in Greek mythology but is the name of a race in Pathfinder? I have no idea if the medusa race is still a thing in Pathfinder Remaster though.
Baphomet is usable in Pathfinder Remaster? I thought that, while Baphomet is indeed a public domain, Baphomet as a demon lord who is worshiped by minotaurs is a purely D&D creation (though it seems to me that the D&D Baphomet and the Pathfinder Baphomet look vastly different).
Will the statistics for Deskari written and revealed eventually? I mean, will his areas of concern, edicts, anathema, and divine attribute be published someday, or at least posted on Paizo Blog? I know Deskari is dead and will never be resurrected (not sure if Pharasma has already judged his soul or not though), but I really wish to see those information.
The extended Cthulhu mythos is a tangle, and everyone who expands upon it does so with their own touch.
In Lovecraft's original story, "Dagon," it's implied that Dagon is an enormous fish monster. It wasn't until many years later in his longer story, "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" that he explored the idea of an entire race of fish people and started calling them the deep ones. In that story, "Father Dagon" and "Mother Hydra" are presented in a way that I interpret as being religious icons to their culture—not gods, so much, as scions of a god who bridge the gap between mortals and the divine. Father Dagon and Mother Hydra would fill the same position as would saints, I guess.
In Pathfinder, we took some inspiration from Lovecraft, some from mythology, and more from our own imagination to present him as a Demon Lord. This was pretty much my preference and influence entirely; I'd done similar work doing the same thing for him in D&D and in Dragon and Dungeon magazine, and when we switched over to doing Pathfinder in the days even before we did our own RPG, Dagon was one, like Pazuzu and Lamashtu, who I could keep doing similar story development with due to their legacies in public domain fiction or mythology. He's one of several such characters we needed to help convince folks who were fans of what we were doing with D&D to keep being our fans and customers when we transitioned very abruptly over the course of a single month to not D&D.
We're using Baphomet as a demon lord of prisons and beasts in Pathfinder Remastered, and also building in some element perhaps of tricking people into worshiping demons when they think they're worshiping something else. We're abandoning his "boss minotaur" element entirely, which also works well with how we're starting to present minotaurs as less monolithically evil and having their own culture that's not just "WORSHIP DEMON AND LIVE IN MAZE". We started doing this many years ago, as you note, in how we went closer to Baphomet's classical real-world appearance than as a big beefy minotaur.
Deskari is dead. We might tell more stories about him some day, but he's very low on the list of demon lords I'm interested in creating 2nd edition stats for, since he's canonically dead. We'll continue to explore various demon lords going forward—I'm currently doing freelance for an article about one of them now, in fact (not someone mentioned in this post). Whether or not we'll do more with Deskari... we'll see. While he's dead, his legacy on Golarion remains VERY important, after all!
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In Lovecraft's original story, "Dagon," it's implied that Dagon is an enormous fish monster.
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Naming his fish monster Dagon isn't surprising. At the time it was mistakenly believed that the mythological Dagon was a deity of fish or fishing and was depicted in ancient art as a fish from the waist down. This all turned out not to be true, but it still seems to be a popular trope in fantasy literature.