The Knockdown action's subordinate Trio does not suffer from or contribute to MAP. The end result is different from Dlam Down in several ways.
1. Slam Down commits 2 actions up front, and loses both if the Strike misses. Knockdown does not commit in advance.
2. Slam Down leaves you at maximum MAP afterward. A 1st Strike followed by Knockdown would leave you at second attack MAP afterward.
3. If a 1st Strike misses, but a 2nd Strike hits, a 3rd action can still be used for Knockdown and have the Trip attempt at full bonus.
As for houseruling, I wouldn't, because I consider the updated rule to be better, because it makes mechanics that should be relevant, like bonuses to defenses against specific maneuvers, function against the sort of thing they should be better for. Houseruling away a better rule, even doing it only on the PC side, doesn't seem like something I'd want to do.
So the feat provides the Knockdown action for an attack. There is no need to house rule the feat. Knockdown action is now defined as allowing an Athletics check to trip, instead of being automatic (at least using the terms from Rage of Elements), so that is what the feat provides.
While the ability the feat grants changed slightly, the ability still exists, so the feat works just fine as is. Same with Pushing Attack and Grasping Limbs.
I agree with HammerJack. The auto-success versions were no fun. A PC fighting a creature 4 levels below it is always auto-tripped, even though the creature would have to roll a 15+ to succeed? No thanks.
With the remaster rules changing the Grab, Knockdown and Push monster actions to now require a skill roll, how will this affect the Summoner LVL 10-14 feats?
For example, the LVL 10 feat Weighty Impact grants the Knockdown action on your eidolon unarmed attacks. with the remaster rules, it now requires a skill roll to successfully trip an enemy. However, the LVL 4 fighter feat Slam down effectively does the same thing.
Without an official errata, I would house rule that the summoner feats automatically push, trip or grab the enemy with an action as it was before the remaster.
What do you guys think?
I think that you are not house ruling. There's no errata update about it so it works as always.
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I think that you are not house ruling. There's no errata update about it so it works as always.
That is the point that HammerJack and Kelseus are making. There is errata. The errata of 5th printing / Remaster. The errata that changes the monster abilities Grab, Knockdown, and Push that the Summoner feats reference.
That is official errata.
This requires summoners to boost athletics, making these options far more niche then previously. I hate it. Although going rogue for skill mastery is always great for summoners so it's still not as bad as it would be for some other classes, just a bit harder to give up amazing summoner feats to get those skill ups.
A change to keep those feats working the way they used to for the summoner would be nice, I think Mark made them that way just to put in some monster flavor into the eidolon, let them do stuff that was outside the lines of PCs. Perhaps add a circumstance bonus with those feats instead, also might be nice for the feats to allow you to use maneuvers and not just the monster ability on larger creatures.
I think that you are not house ruling. There's no errata update about it so it works as always.With the remaster rules changing the Grab, Knockdown and Push monster actions to now require a skill roll, how will this affect the Summoner LVL 10-14 feats?
For example, the LVL 10 feat Weighty Impact grants the Knockdown action on your eidolon unarmed attacks. with the remaster rules, it now requires a skill roll to successfully trip an enemy. However, the LVL 4 fighter feat Slam down effectively does the same thing.
Without an official errata, I would house rule that the summoner feats automatically push, trip or grab the enemy with an action as it was before the remaster.
What do you guys think?
That's not exactly true. The summoner feats text didn't change, but the basic monster ability the feats reference did. If you're using emaster rules for monsters they should apply to the summoner too.
The argument to do otherwise is rooted in the awkward shared proficiency of the class. If eidolons need to start rolling Athletics checks to use these feats, then summoners will need to invest skill increases into Athletics, and having a beef cake summoner tends to run contrary to character concepts. (See: either of the published iconics for the class.)
That's not exactly true. The summoner feats text didn't change, but the basic monster ability the feats reference did. If you're using remaster rules for monsters they should apply to the summoner too.The argument to do otherwise is rooted in the awkward shared proficiency of the class. If eidolons need to start rolling Athletics checks to use these feats, then summoners will need to invest skill increases into Athletics, and having a beef cake summoner tends to run contrary to character concepts. (See: either of the published iconics for the class.)
You can take a level 1 feat Dual Studies, which gives free expert in any skill for each of you separately. (Although I'm not sure if how this works for skill increases. I would let you increase the skills to master at level 9+, but it has to be the same skill from this feat).
An investment in Athletics isn't a waste. The summoner can use it too. Though I do wish the skills of each were separate or some skills just auto-increased like athletics and acrobatics for the eidolon. The eidolon could use more separation like they did with ability increases.
I think that you are not house ruling. There's no errata update about it so it works as always.With the remaster rules changing the Grab, Knockdown and Push monster actions to now require a skill roll, how will this affect the Summoner LVL 10-14 feats?
For example, the LVL 10 feat Weighty Impact grants the Knockdown action on your eidolon unarmed attacks. with the remaster rules, it now requires a skill roll to successfully trip an enemy. However, the LVL 4 fighter feat Slam down effectively does the same thing.
Without an official errata, I would house rule that the summoner feats automatically push, trip or grab the enemy with an action as it was before the remaster.
What do you guys think?
That's not exactly true. The summoner feats text didn't change, but the basic monster ability the feats reference did. If you're using emaster rules for monsters they should apply to the summoner too.
The argument to do otherwise is rooted in the awkward shared proficiency of the class. If eidolons need to start rolling Athletics checks to use these feats, then summoners will need to invest skill increases into Athletics, and having a beef cake summoner tends to run contrary to character concepts. (See: either of the published iconics for the class.)
This is exactly right.
I wonder if we'll get more clarification when monster core is released.
I wouldn't count on it. I think the rule is pretty clear-- you use the new version. Paizo seems content to nerf a few old feats in their remaster errata, going by the champion options which now only effects unholy targets instead of evil ones.
Champion spirit damage effects all things though, so unless your using something that effects holy/unholy only (and most abilities seem to keep holy/unholy as a bonus weakness that they target) then your gaining more effectiveness.
Champion spirit damage effects all things though, so unless your using something that effects holy/unholy only (and most abilities seem to keep holy/unholy as a bonus weakness that they target) then your gaining more effectiveness.
That "unless" is exactly what they did with some champion feats.
Page 112: In the Smite Evil feat, replace "good damage" with "spirit damage if the target is unholy".
Page 113: In the Sense Evil feat, replace the feat's description with the following text:
"You sense evil as a queasy or foreboding feeling. You detect unholy creatures as a vague sense, similar to humans’ sense of smell. An unholy creature using a disguise or otherwise trying to hide its presence attempts a Deception check against your Perception DC to hide its unholiness from you. If the creature succeeds at its Deception check, it is then temporarily immune to your Sense Evil for 1 day."
Page 113: In the Aura of Faith feat, replace "Your Strikes deal an extra 1 good damage against evil creatures. Also, each good-aligned ally within 15 feet gains this benefit on their first Strike that hits an evil creature each round." with "Your Strikes deal and extra 1 spirit damage against unholy creatures. Also, each willing ally within 15 feet gains this benefit on their first Strike that hits an unholy creature each round."
Page 113: In the Blade of Justice feat, replace all instances of "evil" with "unholy" and all instances of "good damage" with "spirit damage".
I think that you are not house ruling. There's no errata update about it so it works as always.That is the point that HammerJack and Kelseus are making. There is errata. The errata of 5th printing / Remaster. The errata that changes the monster abilities Grab, Knockdown, and Push that the Summoner feats reference.
That is official errata.
I think that you are not house ruling. There's no errata update about it so it works as always.With the remaster rules changing the Grab, Knockdown and Push monster actions to now require a skill roll, how will this affect the Summoner LVL 10-14 feats?
For example, the LVL 10 feat Weighty Impact grants the Knockdown action on your eidolon unarmed attacks. with the remaster rules, it now requires a skill roll to successfully trip an enemy. However, the LVL 4 fighter feat Slam down effectively does the same thing.
Without an official errata, I would house rule that the summoner feats automatically push, trip or grab the enemy with an action as it was before the remaster.
What do you guys think?
That's not exactly true. The summoner feats text didn't change, but the basic monster ability the feats reference did. If you're using emaster rules for monsters they should apply to the summoner too.
The argument to do otherwise is rooted in the awkward shared proficiency of the class. If eidolons need to start rolling Athletics checks to use these feats, then summoners will need to invest skill increases into Athletics, and having a beef cake summoner tends to run contrary to character concepts. (See: either of the published iconics for the class.)
That's the part that I don't know but where PC1/GC points this in one of this books? Because the Eidolon feats points specific to the Bestiary books abilities and we still don't got the MC.
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Those remaster forms of those basic monster abilities are in the glossary/index pages of Rage of Elements.
An investment in Athletics isn't a waste. The summoner can use it too. Though I do wish the skills of each were separate or some skills just auto-increased like athletics and acrobatics for the eidolon. The eidolon could use more separation like they did with ability increases.
It isn't that investing in athletics is bad. It just runs counter to the class's basic fantasy. The PF iconic was an elderly gnome. The PF2 iconic is literally a human child. Neither of should be master level wrestlers, but they'd need to be for their eidolons to use these feats. And yes, those iconics could skip this feat like... But "shrimpy caster, big scary monster" is ingrained into the class's thematic identity. And mechanically, it isn't like summoners are likely to invest much in strength themselves.
They've gone from strong higher level feats to being niche build options. It isn't the end of the world and the feats still work, but that's part of why I wouldn't count on Paizo rebuffing them to their former glory.
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Those remaster forms of those basic monster abilities are in the glossary/index pages of Rage of Elements.
They are also available on AoN. See Bestiary Knockdown vs RoE Knockdown.
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An investment in Athletics isn't a waste. The summoner can use it too. Though I do wish the skills of each were separate or some skills just auto-increased like athletics and acrobatics for the eidolon. The eidolon could use more separation like they did with ability increases.It isn't that investing in athletics is bad. It just runs counter to the class's basic fantasy. The PF iconic was an elderly gnome. The PF2 iconic is literally a human child. Neither of should be master level wrestlers, but they'd need to be for their eidolons to use these feats. And yes, those iconics could skip this feat like... But "shrimpy caster, big scary monster" is ingrained into the class's thematic identity. And mechanically, it isn't like summoners are likely to invest much in strength themselves.
They've gone from strong higher level feats to being niche build options. It isn't the end of the world and the feats still work, but that's part of why I wouldn't count on Paizo rebuffing them to their former glory.
The eidolon is coaching the Summoner.
I can easily imagine this! kkk
Page 113: In the Aura of Faith feat, replace "Your Strikes deal an extra 1 good damage against evil creatures. Also, each good-aligned ally within 15 feet gains this benefit on their first Strike that hits an evil creature each round." with "Your Strikes deal and extra 1 spirit damage against unholy creatures. Also, each willing ally within 15 feet gains this benefit on their first Strike that hits an unholy creature each round."
Wow. That's a huge nerf. If I'm reading right, It doesn't even let your allies take advantage of weakness to holy damage. It just makes it a (very) situational +1 damage. Like, I might not take this feat even if I knew for a fact that every enemy in the campaign was going to be unholy.
Page 113: In the Aura of Faith feat, replace "Your Strikes deal an extra 1 good damage against evil creatures. Also, each good-aligned ally within 15 feet gains this benefit on their first Strike that hits an evil creature each round." with "Your Strikes deal and extra 1 spirit damage against unholy creatures. Also, each willing ally within 15 feet gains this benefit on their first Strike that hits an unholy creature each round."Wow. That's a huge nerf. If I'm reading right, It doesn't even let your allies take advantage of weakness to holy damage. It just makes it a (very) situational +1 damage. Like, I might not take this feat even if I knew for a fact that every enemy in the campaign was going to be unholy.
I expect that Champion - when it fully releases in Player Core 2 - will interact with Sanctification similarly as Clerics do.
Dealing 1 spirit damage while Sanctified as Holy would trigger weakness to Holy on the enemy.
Yes, it is a nerf on alignment damage. Alignment damage in general was buffed with the change to spirit damage so that it affects many more enemies. Alignment weakness was nerfed because of the lower occurrence of enemies actually being Sanctified as Holy or Unholy. That is expected. The rewritten Champion feats in Player Core 2 may be buffed to compensate.
Wow. That's a huge nerf. If I'm reading right, It doesn't even let your allies take advantage of weakness to holy damage. It just makes it a (very) situational +1 damage.
Also, Arcane Cascade says, "hi".
I expect that Champion - when it fully releases in Player Core 2 - will interact with Sanctification similarly as Clerics do.
Dealing 1 spirit damage while Sanctified as Holy would trigger weakness to Holy on the enemy.
Yes, it is a nerf on alignment damage. Alignment damage in general was buffed with the change to spirit damage so that it affects many more enemies. Alignment weakness was nerfed because of the lower occurrence of enemies actually being Sanctified as Holy or Unholy. That is expected. The rewritten Champion feats in Player Core 2 may be buffed to compensate.
My understanding is that that Champion themselves will have all of their damage be Sanctified (to Holy or Unholy, depending) regardless of type. From what I'm reading, though, that doesn't apply to the +1 spirit damage they're handing out to their allies here... so regardless of who's doing the hitting, this aura isn't letting anyone trigger that vulnerability who wasn't triggering it already for other reasons. It's just a +1 to damage.
I suppose its true, though, that further changes could occur between now and then.
Yeah I think the champion class features got buffed, between spirit damage being more widely applicable and their strikes getting Sanctified. But several of the feats feel notably worse, and I'd probably just skip those feats without house rules, much like these summoner feats.