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Yeah, we know that. It's sad but not blocking in any way.
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And again it works mechanically, but is really silly to do narratively.
As a side note, there is exactly the same problem during encounters: You want to detect enemies, you'll have to waste a spell. Considering that you don't know where the enemy is at that stage you'll certainly have to cast Wilding Word in the air anyway. So it has more to do with the Wilding Stewart Witch in general than with the use of this ability outside encounters.
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Personally, I'd never pick "which witch" based on the perceived superiority or inferiority of their hex cantrip/familiar ability combo.
Yeah, I would agree with that.
I also do feel like I should pause for a moment and mention that I appreciate you and SuperBidi and the others that are arguing the other side of the topic.
Unless and until Wilding Steward gets some developer attention, anyone who does want to play with that Witch patron is going to have to figure out how to make it effective. It is good that you all are here doing quite well at showing what to expect and what arguments are most effective.
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I also do feel like I should pause for a moment and mention that I appreciate you and SuperBidi and the others that are arguing the other side of the topic.
Don't worry, there have been no harsh words, it's just a heated debate like many.
With the remaster's more lenient rules on sustaining, I think you can probably walk around sustaining your hex and familiar senses as a basic exploration tactic most of the time in dungeon crawls. Thats a pretty nice radar. And with Share Sense and an increased DC, you might be able to identify something about the monster on scent alone. You may prepare different strategies if you smell putrid flesh rather than sulphur and brimstone.
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I played my Wild Witch yesterday. I used Keen Senses during exploration. I detected a couple of giant insects at some point and we avoided them. It's hard to tell what would have happened if I hadn't detected them but at least I can state that Keen Senses work as intended.
As we gained a level at the end of the session, I took Conceal Spell so I will no more care about the spell manifestations of Wilding Word while I use Keen Senses.
I stick to my early judgment: Keen Senses is really nice, for the security it brings while adventuring and, sometimes, the fights you avoid.
How did you know they were insects you avoided?
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It sounds like it only works as intended if you have a GM that is very lenient on the rules and allows the ability to work regardless of the questions of the ruling.
In addition to casting Wilding Word on what is arguably an invalid target, using it in addition to Conceal Spell means that you are doing a 2 action improvised activity for your exploration. 3 actions since you are also moving.
If you happen to not have a GM that is that lenient, then the results won't be nearly as impressive.
How did you know they were insects you avoided?
My Familiar detected something 50 feet away, then we asked if we were seeing something at that spot and the GM allowed us a Perception check.
It sounds like it only works as intended if you have a GM that is very lenient on the rules and allows the ability to work regardless of the questions of the ruling.
The GM plays by RAW, take it or leave it.
Also, even if we agreed with my GM that it was my Exploration Activity, I was using it at specific positions. It was easier for him to determine what my Familiar was finding and it was better for me as I was able to check the important spots.
Also, even if we agreed with my GM that it was my Exploration Activity, I was using it at specific positions. It was easier for him to determine what my Familiar was finding and it was better for me as I was able to check the important spots.
That is harder to argue against by RAW.
But this still feels like a gimmick that needs improved with errata rather than a simple following of the rules as presented.
How many players who don't read this forum (or other ones like it) are going to run Wilding Steward and Keen Senses this way? If it is less than 100%, then all of those players are going to see Wilding Steward patron as a seriously sub-par choice.
And for the rest of them, the patron may still be a mildly sub-par choice since the familiar's Keen Senses ability doesn't do much in combat like all of the other ones do.
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How did you know they were insects you avoided?My Familiar detected something 50 feet away, then we asked if we were seeing something at that spot and the GM allowed us a Perception check.
Uh, you didn't all mutually see each other and have to roll iniative against a moving giant insect 50' away with no wall or other total cover in the way? That's wild.
Sounds like Treasure Vault needed spectacles as an option for some parties. And the gods alone know how these species of insects evolved to survive when they can't spot things 50' away making spellcasting noise and walking around in the open.
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How many players who don't read this forum (or other ones like it) are going to run Wilding Steward and Keen Senses this way?Hopefully GMs read and familiarize themselves with the "Repeat a Spell" Exploration activity before telling the Wilding witch player that repeating a hex cantrip to trigger their familiar's power is not a RAW exploration activity.
That's not the problem. The problem with the exploration activity is when you want to use the Conceal Spell spellshape feat, cast the spell, move, and command the familiar to sense the area as your activity.
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies - so you have no target for the spell outside of combat and it can't be used to trigger the Keen Senses ability.
Why are you listing "command the familiar to sense the area" in there? If the familiar senses something, it can Point Out for free, even if this was in an Encounter.
Also, this Keen Senses familiar ability seems to be trying to balance along side the Barbarian's Acute Scent and Nocturnal Sense abilities.
Sensory improvements - but only during combat.
Which is kinda weak for feats and class abilities.
Why are you listing "command the familiar to sense the area" in there? If the familiar senses something, it can Point Out for free, even if this was in an Encounter.
That's reasonable. But it is also debatable. Still waiting on developer clarification about if familiars can do anything independently during exploration mode.
Also, it is a bit of a moot point, since even without that the improvised activity is still at three actions. SuperBidi also needs to drop the Concealed Casting in order to be down to two. (Or do like they mentioned and not use it as an exploration activity, but as something triggered at specific points on the map).
Broke: The premaster Witch is too weak.
Woke: The remaster Witch is good.
Bespoke: The remaster Witch is too weak.
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies(i) the players don't make rules calls like that, the GM does. And hopefully the GM, having read the "repeat a spell" section, will correct any player who says that.
It still doesn't feel like you are arguing against the points that I am actually making.
What does the "Repeat a Spell" section have to do with spell casting and targeting restrictions?
Uh, you didn't all mutually see each other and have to roll iniative against a moving giant insect 50' away with no wall or other total cover in the way? That's wild.
Wild...
So, the Familiar detected the insects that were waiting for us hidden among some rocks. They actually detected us but were waiting for us to get closer to ambush us. The second we detected them we moved away from them defusing the combat entirely. I can't tell you what would have happened if we didn't detect them but have I been the GM, the PCs would have triggered combat.
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies - so you have no target for the spell outside of combat and it can't be used to trigger the Keen Senses ability.
You don't have a target in combat either because the whole point of Keen Senses is to detect said target.
So, per RAW, you can use it. If you consider that you need a target to use it then you can't use it at all and then, per RAI, the GM is forced to houserule it. So it works at each and every table.
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies - so you have no target for the spell outside of combat and it can't be used to trigger the Keen Senses ability.You don't have a target in combat either because the whole point of Keen Senses is to detect said target.
The. Target. Of. Wilding Word.
What creature are you targeting with Wilding Word to cast the spell to trigger Keen Senses.
How many GMs are going to read
Target: 1 creature
and rule that you can't target 'nothing' or 'a random tree'?
How many GMs or players are going to read
Effect: debuff
and say that you shouldn't target your allies?
So how many tables are going to decide that Wilding Word is not a valid Hex to cast outside of casting it on enemies during combat. And therefore - as a side effect of that ruling - Keen Senses can't be triggered outside of combat.
I really don't know why everyone is like cast it on a tree or empty space or a party member. Just cast it on yourself. The downside of it will never come up unless you decide to punch yourself.
That still feels like a very non-intuitive and strange thing to do. One that many tables and players are not going to think of.
Which feels really bad for one of the class's primary abilities.
This is more me being annoyed at all the cast it on an empty space or a tree or this or that when there is alway a creature in range that you are aware of.
Yeah. It is also a really good workaround. It bypasses the risk of having your party members get upset when you cast a debuff spell on them.
When the inevitable happens and some GM/player comes on to the advice or rules forums asking how to make Wilding Steward Witch and Keen Senses work better, that is probably what I will recommend to them.
Uh, you didn't all mutually see each other and have to roll iniative against a moving giant insect 50' away with no wall or other total cover in the way? That's wild.Wild...
So, the Familiar detected the insects that were waiting for us hidden among some rocks. They actually detected us but were waiting for us to get closer to ambush us. The second we detected them we moved away from them defusing the combat entirely. I can't tell you what would have happened if we didn't detect them but have I been the GM, the PCs would have triggered combat.
Looking at every land-based giant insect that could have noticed you to be set for an ambush only two the Giant Stag Beetle and Giant Tick could have reached something 50ft. away with a Stride -> Stride -> Strike or Stride -> Stride -> Grapple and a few could reach the party in a single stride. Your GM was very generous in not at least making your retreat into a chase and I would have run it as a combat.
You don't have a target in combat either because the whole point of Keen Senses is to detect said target.
So, per RAW, you can use it. If you consider that you need a target to use it then you can't use it at all and then, per RAI, the GM is forced to houserule it. So it works at each and every table.
So target an enemy you can see and just accept that it might not work against a single hidden target. That also works by RAW.
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The. Target. Of. Wilding Word.
If you use Keen Senses it's because you don't detect the enemy. If you don't detect the enemy what enemy is "The. Target. Of. Wilding Word"?
Looking at every land-based giant insect that could have noticed you to be set for an ambush only two the Giant Stag Beetle and Giant Tick could have reached something 50ft. away with a Stride -> Stride -> Strike or Stride -> Stride -> Grapple and a few could reach the party in a single stride. Your GM was very generous in not at least making your retreat into a chase and I would have run it as a combat.
Ambushes are ideal at a certain range, in general under 50 ft. Using 2 actions to Stride to the enemy entirely negates your advantage. Honestly, how the GM handled the situation made a lot of sense. We detected the enemies just before it made sense to trigger the fight. A few feet closer and we were ambushed for sure.
As far as I can tell you have already kinda admitted that the power doesn't need a mechanical fix because you admit that by RAW the Wilding witch's cantrip hex can turn it on in both exploration mode and in encounter mode before enemies are present.
To be clear, yes. I have been convinced that it does work RAW.
It just isn't intuitive.
And it may not be what the writers intended for it, but that is a different problem. Given the Barbarian feats above, at least one person on the dev team considers sensory upgrades that only work in combat to be of reasonably high value.
And the GM isn't inherently any more of a rules expert than any of the other players. Being a rules expert isn't the main requirement of being the GM.
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Anyway, Keen Senses is extremely GM dependent. Tremorsense has 2 points that can be played very differently depending on the GM:
- "the subject is moving along the surface" can be interpreted very differently from a GM who considers that it just means being on the surface to an adversarial GM asking for the enemy to use a move action to be detected.
- "the monster is on the same surface" can also be interpreted differently as there's no real notion of what "the same surface" is.
Similarly, Scent works as long as the GM decides it works. What creatures have a recognizable smell? What is the smell of a Lich?
And the GM can also decide that environmental odors can screw with Scent. After all, how do you detect the smell of a dragon inside its lair which certainly smells like the dragon?
So, in my opinion, talk to your GM is the best way to handle a Wild Witch, even without considering the weird point about how it has to be activated. It's not a character I'd play in PFS, at least not with a random GM.
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Anyway, Keen Senses is extremely GM dependent. Tremorsense has 2 points that can be played very differently depending on the GM:
- "the subject is moving along the surface" can be interpreted very differently from a GM who considers that it just means being on the surface to an adversarial GM asking for the enemy to use a move action to be detected.
Only one of these is a possible interpretation and it's not the one you think.
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Only one of these is a possible interpretation and it's not the one you think.
If I follow your One True Interpretation, it means that an enemy can beat the crap out of me without triggering Tremorsense, that it can be tripped by the Fighter or Teleport away without triggering it either as none of these are move actions.
It also means that a creature with Tremorsense can only detect the enemies when they move and as such won't detect anything during its turn. Which is funny as some creatures have "Precise" Tremorsense.
And also, it means that if I give Tremorsense to my Familiar with Keen Senses it won't detect anything until an enemy finally decides to move and will then Point Out... the beginning of its move? Or its end, or anywhere in between?
So, as I stated, you need to talk with your GM for Keen Senses to work. Considering that it's supposed to have a similar power level to Ongoing Misery I'm pretty sure a lot of GMs will allow you to make it work without being uselessly nitpicky.
PS: As the place was full of Xulgath, my Familiar was actually using Scent when detecting the insects. Do you have another objection? Maybe giant coackroaches don't smell anything?
But I’d like to know from SuperBidi how he built/plays his Wilding Steward Witch and how he felt about it in combat.
My Witch is currently level 4, so I can't tell you for the future. As my GM is rather flexible on Uncommon options, he gave me access to Sudden Bolt. So since level 3 my Witch is a massive damage dealer (I'm used to playing blasters/casters, so the Primal spell list is a boon to me).
Anyway, this is rather off topic, so you can contact me by private message if you want more details (even if I think my build is quite basic).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Keen Senses mitigates the Blinded condition on you.
I'm not sure I follow you, but it's your Familiar that gets the benefits from Keen Senses and as such you don't have any improved senses yourself. So it doesn't mitigate the Blinded condition much (remember that hearing is an Imprecise Sense, too, so unless the enemy is not making any noise you should already have some information about its position while Blinded).
And honestly, considering how it's easy to grab Darkvision through your Ancestry or Heritage, I don't think such strategy is interesting.
With some more digging, in sure we can find more ways that Keen Senses can be weaponized.
I have hard time seeing how you could do that. But if you find something don't hesitate to share.
Overall, the Wilding Steward’s theme is “mitigation insurance”
I consider it a scout, mostly.
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No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies - so you have no target for the spell outside of combat and it can't be used to trigger the Keen Senses ability.
You see it being possibly interpreted this way. It does not mean "the general population of players" will.
None of us can speak for this general population.
No, the problem with the general population of players is that they are going to see the Target: line and the fact that the spell effect is a debuff and say that you can't cast Wilding Word on nothing, and shouldn't cast it on your allies - so you have no target for the spell outside of combat and it can't be used to trigger the Keen Senses ability.You see it being possibly interpreted this way. It does not mean "the general population of players" will.
None of us can speak for this general population.
Ultimately true. Only time will tell if people generally run with it that way without prompting.
But I have seen the questions that sometimes come through on the rules and advice forums. I don't think it is a stretch to see a spell with 'targets one creature' and 'has detrimental effect' and think that there is going to be a noticeable percentage of people who intuitively see that as being a combat-only spell. I certainly did when I first read it.