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So Ezren at level one decides he wants to craft some scrolls, so he gets trained in crafting at that level. But oops, he doesn't have expert crafting or magical crafting yet. Okay, wait 'til level 2, get those. No problem. So he decides to craft "scroll of first rank spell" (doesn't matter which one as long as it's in his spell book). Scrolls are consumables so they can be created in batches of four. Cool. But... Normally it takes a minimum of two days to craft something, but that can be reduced to one day if you have the item's formula. You do -- it's the spell itself. But you need four casts of the spell, and you only have three per day, so it's going to take you at least two days anyway. I think. Am I missing something?
Added: if he wants to get these four scrolls for just the 8 gold of his initial expense, he's got to keep working on them for another 16 days (8 gold / 0.5 gold per day (from the earned income table) = 16), right?
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Normally it takes a minimum of two days to craft something, but that can be reduced to one day if you have the item's formula. You do -- it's the spell itself.No, though? The casting of a spell is a requrement, but the formula for scrolls is what it is - a formula for scrolls (we know that we don't need a formula for each rank though).
I think you found a gap in the rules, I don't think it's ever explicitly said that the spell itself is the scroll's formula.
IMO it is very much implied to be the case, that if you have the tools, Magical Crafting, and know the spell, you can make it.
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Ah, checking the blurb again, I'd rule that the singular "Spell Scroll" itself is one formula, and you trap your desired spell inside by casting into it. Meaning you'd only ever need 1 formula, and I'd be fine handwaving that any Wiz/ect can have it as a gimmie.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=720
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It is kind of funny that a Wiz might theoretically be unable to cast enough spells in a day to make a full 4x batch.
If I were at that table, I'd just point out that there's no reason to see a batch of 3 as some terrible loss.
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A Wizard would have difficulty getting Expert proficiency in crafting before level 3. They could get Magical Crafting at level 3 by spending their General feat on the skill feat.
A Wizard would be able to provide 4 castings of a 1st rank spell at level 2 or level 3 by using Drain Bonded Item.
Yeah, I got the level for first skill increase wrong. :-(
I was kinda of nonplussed at Core’s introduction of the “you don’t need formulas for common (level 0?) items any more” when that’s only in one place and everything else still says you need it. Or maybe I’m misremembering that too.
At level 3 he could craft rank 1 and rank2 scrolls. If he has enough money and time.
Scroll formula in Remaster is 1gp.
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Is there an archetype that gives expert crafting?
Vehicle Mechanic Dedication: "You become an expert in Crafting".
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*I* am a vehicle mechanic. 62B30. The Army trained me for it some 46 years ago. :-)
Scroll formula in Remaster is 1gp.
Based on?
Scroll formula in Remaster is 1gp.Based on?
That's the price of the level 1 magic scroll formula. The Remaster rules state you only need purchase the lowest level formula for any item that has higher level versions of itself. For example, if I have the formula for the minor elixir of life, I can apply the benefits of that formula to a major elixir of life.
You could buy the higher level item formulas still, I think, but there's no longer any benefit to doing so.
Yeah. I don't like that rule. It seems to me to just be dumbing down the game system.
Yeah. I don't like that rule. It seems to me to just be dumbing down the game system.
Well, it certainly does make things less complicated.
Doesn't feel like a "dumbing down" to me since it increases efficiency, decreases headaches, and makes the crafting game more accessible to wider audiences. That sounds more like a "smarting up" to me.
I prefer that rule as well. Seems to me if you know how to make a scroll, shouldn't be harder for higher level scrolls.
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A Wizard would be able to provide 4 castings of a 1st rank spell at level 2 or level 3 by using Drain Bonded Item.
The craft rules don't have any requirements on when the spells need to be cast, so as long as the process isn't interrupted, this is probably an easy to handle it.
It DOES make crafting a batch of scrolls a problem for most casters however. You can't even use a heighened version
Like other consumables, scrolls can be crafted in batches of four. All scrolls of one batch must contain the same spell at the same level, and you must provide one casting for each scroll crafted.
I guess the can should be read as an "up to" in order to make scroll crafting possible for lone spellcasters.
Like other consumables, scrolls can be crafted in batches of four. All scrolls of one batch must contain the same spell at the same level, and you must provide one casting for each scroll crafted.I guess the can should be read as an "up to" in order to make scroll crafting possible for lone spellcasters.
I would insist it be read as such because the consumable crafting rule that it is referring to does actually use that wording.
You can Craft items with the consumable trait in batches, making up to four of the same item at once with a single check.
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Like other consumables, scrolls can be crafted in batches of four. All scrolls of one batch must contain the same spell at the same level, and you must provide one casting for each scroll crafted.I guess the can should be read as an "up to" in order to make scroll crafting possible for lone spellcasters.I would insist it be read as such because the consumable crafting rule that it is referring to does actually use that wording.
You can Craft items with the consumable trait in batches, making up to four of the same item at once with a single check.
There we go then!
So Wizards and Sorcerers can potentially make up to 4 scrolls per day.
All other casters can potentially make up to 3 scrolls per day.
With anything less than 4 being potentially augmented up to 4 with the aid of another caster.
Also useful if you want to make fewer than 4 scrolls for other reasons. Such as not needing more than one of them, or only having the funds to spare to make two.
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My own pet question around scroll crafting is, given the reduced general crafting time in the remaster, are we at the stage where:
- A suitibly high level character
- Utilising some means of sleep reduction (Ring of sustenance, etc)
- Using Complex Crafting rules
Create at least 2 scrolls per "night"?
That's the price of the level 1 magic scroll formula. The Remaster rules state you only need purchase the lowest level formula for any item that has higher level versions of itself. For example, if I have the formula for the minor elixir of life, I can apply the benefits of that formula to a major elixir of life.Scroll formula in Remaster is 1gp.Based on?
Where in the remaster rules is this? I cannot find it. I remember Paizo saying this explicitly under some kind of Q&A pretense, but it was only in reference to scrolls.
What you're saying seems to imply that an Alchemist only ever needs a the Minor/Lesser Formulas to be able to craft the Moderates/Greater/Majors using the formula-given 1-day discount. And maybe even to use Advanced Alchemy to get a bunch of free high-lvl Elixirs per day via only having to know the lower ones? That seems TGTBT.
- Jee
are we at the stage where:
- A suitibly high level character
- Utilising some means of sleep reduction (Ring of sustenance, etc)
- Using Complex Crafting rulesCreate at least 2 scrolls per "night"?
If you are creating that many scrolls, I assume that it is so that you can cast them during the day's adventures.
So why not use Scroll Trickster?
Scroll Trickster only requires trained in one of the spellcasting tradition skills, and two feats will get you 2 scrolls per day at level 8 (the level 6 feat upgrades itself to two scrolls at level 8).
There is also Wizard Scroll Savant and Thaumaturge Scroll Esoterica for characters of those two classes.
Where in the remaster rules is this? I cannot find it. I remember Paizo saying this explicitly under some kind of Q&A pretense, but it was only in reference to scrolls.
I only vaguely remember hearing about it regarding Remaster. So regarding items it may just be hearsay or something that was considered, but then later cut from the design.
I know that the official errata has that for scrolls and wands though.
You only need to learn a single 1st level formula to Craft any scroll or any magic wand (though specialty wands each require their own formulas as normal). Add "You only need to learn one 1st-level formula to Craft a magic wand." and parallel text for scrolls.
But that is only for the CRB. I don't have GM Core yet, so I don't know if the scroll and wand rules there have that or not. I assume that they do.
My own pet question around scroll crafting is, given the reduced general crafting time in the remaster, are we at the stage where:
- A suitibly high level character
- Utilising some means of sleep reduction (Ring of sustenance, etc)
- Using Complex Crafting rulesCreate at least 2 scrolls per "night"?
Not really, downtime activities are still measured in days.
The main exception is the Rare Feat Quick Setup. While IMO the remaster crafting changes really hurt the Feat, there's still a niche left to it. The Feat reduces Craft setup time based on how high above the item's level you are. And also modifies it based on permanent/consumable item.
At the max gap of -6 Lvl, you can do the initial Craft setup of consumables in 2 hours, and the Feat calls out explicitly that yes, this does enable the crafting of items in the middle of an adventuring day.
Afaik, that's the only break from the separation of downtime days from adventuring days, and the callout present within that edge case further reinforces that general exclusion rule. Note that the Feat has no interaction with the post-setup cost reduction.
It enabled my Alch to make a batch of Ghost Charges in the middle of an adventuring day one time. But, the pushback from the party for taking such a timely detour was immense, and I've not done that since.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=4085
So Wizards and Sorcerers can potentially make up to 4 scrolls per day.
All other casters can potentially make up to 3 scrolls per day.
Don't forget that you can use lower rank slots.
This is only an issue if you're crafting for your highest rank spells, which often isn't financially feasible anyways.
For example, a 5th-level witch could cast revealing light up to five times a day, easily allowing for a batch of four 2nd-rank scrolls of that spell.
That seems to me to be a good and fair change.
As a prepared spellcaster If I need to cast a great many rank 1 spells for crafting purposes, I could fill all of my spell slots with heightened versions of that necessary spell. The crafting process does not discern between spell ranks. It just needs to have the spell cast.
So Wizards and Sorcerers can potentially make up to 4 scrolls per day.
All other casters can potentially make up to 3 scrolls per day.With anything less than 4 being potentially augmented up to 4 with the aid of another caster.
I think I'd mention this again here. They stealthily gave even more freedom to spontaneous casters:
"As a spontaneous caster, you can also choose to cast a lower-rank spell using a higher-rank spell slot without heightening it or knowing it at a higher rank. This casts the spell at the rank you know the spell, not the rank of the higher slot."
So spontaneous casters can help making 1st rank items with absolutely all their slots. For 2nd rank with all 2+ rank slots. And so on.
This was not newly given. This was always the case. They merely clarified the stance they've always held, the way the rule was always intended to work.
It is true that it was not made as clear, pre-Remaster.
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are we at the stage where:
- A suitibly high level character
- Utilising some means of sleep reduction (Ring of sustenance, etc)
- Using Complex Crafting rulesCreate at least 2 scrolls per "night"?
If you are creating that many scrolls, I assume that it is so that you can cast them during the day's adventures.
So why not use Scroll Trickster?
Scroll Trickster only requires trained in one of the spellcasting tradition skills, and two feats will get you 2 scrolls per day at level 8 (the level 6 feat upgrades itself to two scrolls at level 8).
There is also Wizard Scroll Savant and Thaumaturge Scroll Esoterica for characters of those two classes.
I always need more scrolls.
Always more.
Plus if I can stockpile permanent scrolls, it means I can save them up for cases of prolonged adventure.
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It was not the case. This paragraph was completely absent from that section of CRB and nowhere in class sections. You can't do that without this rule, slot spontaneous casting was defined very clearly. Stance and intention maybe was there (I had no idea), but rules - weren't at all.I think I'd mention this again here. They stealthily gave even more freedom to spontaneous casters:
"As a spontaneous caster, you can also choose to cast a lower-rank spell using a higher-rank spell slot without heightening it or knowing it at a higher rank. This casts the spell at the rank you know the spell, not the rank of the higher slot."
So spontaneous casters can help making 1st rank items with absolutely all their slots. For 2nd rank with all 2+ rank slots. And so on.This was not newly given. This was always the case. They merely clarified the stance they've always held, the way the rule was always intended to work.
It is true that it was not made as clear, pre-Remaster.
Old RAW I believe you are correct, but I don't know anyone who ever played it that way, as developer intent was pretty clear to everyone I've ever played with. I've only ever encountered naysayers on these forums.
In any case, as we're discussing intent--short of a developer clarifying things further--you can believe what you want and I'll believe what I want, and the sun will continue to rise and fall despite it all.
I don't know anyone who ever played it that way
I agree with Errenor: I can't recall anyone playing it that way.
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I remember Reddit being strongly in the "of course you can't do that, the RAW is clear, feel free to give us some errata, though" camp across numerous threads. There was also a single drive-by Jason Buhlman post on one smaller thread that said you could do it, but Paizo employees regardless of job title saying you can ignore the published rules on online forums have never had much impact on these questions.
Paizo employees regardless of job title saying you can ignore the published rules on online forums have never had much impact on these questions.
As it should be.
That's the price of the level 1 magic scroll formula. The Remaster rules state you only need purchase the lowest level formula for any item that has higher level versions of itself. For example, if I have the formula for the minor elixir of life, I can apply the benefits of that formula to a major elixir of life.Scroll formula in Remaster is 1gp.Based on?Where in the remaster rules is this? I cannot find it. I remember Paizo saying this explicitly under some kind of Q&A pretense, but it was only in reference to scrolls.
What you're saying seems to imply that an Alchemist only ever needs a the Minor/Lesser Formulas to be able to craft the Moderates/Greater/Majors using the formula-given 1-day discount. And maybe even to use Advanced Alchemy to get a bunch of free high-lvl Elixirs per day via only having to know the lower ones? That seems TGTBT.
- Jee
Here you go.
Some items with multiple type entries get special
treatment when it comes to formulas and upgrades. The
existing knowledge you have about the item means you
don’t need to start from scratch with these items.
If you have the formula for an item, you don’t need a
different formula to Craft a different type of that item
that’s just a higher-level upgrade. For example, if you
have the formula for a +1 weapon potency rune, you
don’t need to secure a new formula to etch a +2 weapon
potency rune. This works similarly with items such as a
spacious pouch with its multiple types or doubling rings
with a base version and greater version.
Thank you, wow! Does this apply to Infused things as well? In other words does that mean that Alchemists don’t need to get the formulas for higher versions of, say, an Elixir of Life in order to fast-create them with Advanced/Quick Alchemy? Once they know the Minor version they just have to level up to gain Infused-creation access to the higher tiers? That alone is gone buff the crap out of those kinds of Classes/Archtypes.
- Jee
Here you go.
Some items with multiple type entries get special treatment when it comes to formulas and upgrades. The existing knowledge you have about the item means you
don’t need to start from scratch with these items. If you have the formula for an item, you don’t need a different formula to Craft a different type of that item that’s just a higher-level upgrade. For example, if you have the formula for a +1 weapon potency rune, you
don’t need to secure a new formula to etch a +2 weapon potency rune. This works similarly with items such as a spacious pouch with its multiple types or doubling rings with a base version and greater version.
IMNSHO this rule sucks and should be ignored.
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In my not so humble opinion. My wife had to tell that's what that meant. Im terrible at acronyms.
IMNSHO this rule sucks and should be ignored.
???
Why would this rule be objectionable?
The RP of things like Alchemist's Fire (lesser) --> (moderate) etcetera is that you are making a more potent version of the same item.
The higher iLvl versions are *too difficult* to create for a novice, so it's a matter of skill/ability.
IMO the entire idea behind "now I can make a bomb that's more potent!" makes *more* RP sense for formulas to auto-heighten as the character advances in prowess.
They set up a system whereby making things requires a formula. A higher level version of most things is qualitatively different than a lower version. Consider, for example, the difference between black powder and modern smokeless powder, or between a fuel-air bomb and a block of C4, or a block of C4 and a block of Semtex. I think it is a good system, notwithstanding that many players feel that if they say "I need a block of Semtex" the GM should in effect say "okay, here you go". Now they're saying in effect that there's no qualitative difference between C4 and Semtex -- and they're wrong about that.
They set up a system whereby making things requires a formula. A higher level version of most things is qualitatively different than a lower version. Consider, for example, the difference between black powder and modern smokeless powder, or between a fuel-air bomb and a block of C4, or a block of C4 and a block of Semtex. I think it is a good system, notwithstanding that many players feel that if they say "I need a block of Semtex" the GM should in effect say "okay, here you go". Now they're saying in effect that there's no qualitative difference between C4 and Semtex -- and they're wrong about that.
Or perhaps they recognize that having too many additional constraints beyond "can't craft anything higher than your level" to be unnecessary, unhelpful, and uncondicive to fun.
Besides, you generally need to have a foundational understanding of the basics before you can begin to step into the advanced stuff. And that progression is represented fine with those level limitations. Everything else is redundant.
You gained understanding of black powder and other basic explosives at level 1, but now that you're level 10, you've now experimented with, benn exposed to rnough, and have gained understanding about chemistry related to explosives that you can now safely make C4.
Makes total sense to me.
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Re: Ed and RD. The rule creates a rather drastic shift in price/value/accessibility of various items depending on of there is a weaker version of the item available.
Taken to an extreme arbitrary example: if there is a Rare potion of Death that is 9th level and causes someone to die. If there is a Rare Greater version of that item that is 20th level and has that effect on everyone else in a 100 mile radius.
The existence of the first item suddenly makes makes the cost to access the 20th level version brought down to a 9th level's item cost. If costs are intended to be a balancing point, it can actually cause problems.
It is very much the same discrepancy that Prepared casters (the ones who have to learn spells at least) have over Spontaneous users, who get free rank-up on spells, while spontaneous casters have to pay for theirs. The Prepared casters who get all the spells obviously already had the benefit of the free spells.
Note, I'm not positive that with the wording as given, that this free granting of access to the higher level item actually completely invalidates the higher level item. The lower level item formula grants you the ability to craft the higher level item (at appropriate level), but I don't think it conveys the entire benefit of the native formula. To save the day of prep time, I think would still require the higher level formula as currently written, unless I missed something.
And as a GM, for my prior example, I'd have to keep in mind whenever making a lower level, lesser item of an existing item, I might have to consider making the rarity of the item different, as it was made clear that items with different rarites don't pass the benefit between them.
If someone is concerned about the fiscal impact of the rule on the game, rather than ignoring it you might allow someone to research the higher level formula via on-level daily income work, and start with 100% credit for the highest lower level formula in the family they currently know. You could even offer a discount (automatic progression based on some percent of the value of any actual production of the items in question.
Meaning a crafter who has been making +1 runes enough time, would after so many basically come up as a 'side effect', with a usable formula for a +2 rune.
Raving Dork, one issue with your example which makes sense having a 1st level character learn something early, and eventually being able to do more advanced things as they have leveled up. But the issue is, that it also presents the example allowing the higher level individual, going out and buying the primer on gunpower, and without ever touching an ounce of gunpowder, begins assembling the C4 explosive device.
People like to talk about Heightened spells, saying heightened spells are balanced to be worse than naturally higher ranked spells, so potentially there is a balance concession that if you get a heightened rank spell knowledge for free, you are getting something less powerful than a spell of the full native rank, so one can say the spell is balanced in it lack of cost, by its weaker strength. However, it was implied that items are definitely supposed to be tiered according to their actual power, not based on their weakest instance and progressing bit by bit, but less than something 'starting' at that level.
I think this is Ed's concern. It can be nice to get things for free. Often hard to pass up, but it may make certain things start seeming to lack values they used to and drift distribution of items to things that there are lower level items to, since they will become significantly cheaper to access. This creation of best value cutting diversity may be a cost the the flavor of the stories. Thus the concern.
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In my not so humble opinion. My wife had to tell that's what that meant. Im terrible at acronyms.
Wow, somenone finally took "if you like Google so much, why don't you marry it!" to heart.