Perfect Form Control for Druids in Remaster

[Revresbo]

I was thrilled when I was looking over Player Core to find that the 4th-level Druid feat Form Control no longer had a Strength prerequisite. I never understood how a high Strength translated into "muscle memory" or why it would be necessary for either flavour or balancing when it came to the benefits of Form Control. In fact, off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other class feat that requires an Attribute modifier. Know-It-All doesn't require Intelligence, for instance.

So why does Perfect Form Control still require Strength +4 when its prerequisite feat does not require any Strength modifier at all? Was it left in by oversight? Honestly, I would let any of my players ignore the Strength requirement. Can we get this errata-ed out?

[Claxon]

I'm actually curious if the removal of the requirement from Form Control was an accident or intentional.

I always imagined it was there intentionally (for meta reasons) of making casting focused druids not as good at changing shape. Although for combat purpose form control is generally not good anyways.

[Gisher]

Revresbo wrote:

I was thrilled when I was looking over Player Core to find that the 4th-level Druid feat Form Control no longer had a Strength prerequisite. I never understood how a high Strength translated into "muscle memory" or why it would be necessary for either flavour or balancing when it came to the benefits of Form Control. In fact, off the top of my head, I cannot think of any other class feat that requires an Attribute modifier. Know-It-All doesn't require Intelligence, for instance.

So why does Perfect Form Control still require Strength +4 when its prerequisite feat does not require any Strength modifier at all? Was it left in by oversight? Honestly, I would let any of my players ignore the Strength requirement. Can we get this errata-ed out?

Good point. I just added this topic to the potential errata thread.

[Gisher]

Claxon wrote:

I'm actually curious if the removal of the requirement from Form Control was an accident or intentional.

I always imagined it was there intentionally (for meta reasons) of making casting focused druids not as good at changing shape. Although for combat purpose form control is generally not good anyways.

The removal could be an accident. As Revresbo said, though, having ability score requirements for class feats is unusual in PF2. I can't think of another example off the top of my head, either.

[Staffan Johansson]

Revresbo wrote:

I was thrilled when I was looking over Player Core to find that the 4th-level Druid feat Form Control no longer had a Strength prerequisite. I never understood how a high Strength translated into "muscle memory" or why it would be necessary for either flavour or balancing when it came to the benefits of Form Control.

I believe the intent was to force wild druids to spend some resources on Strength. It's a weird place to push that requirement though.

A problem with wild shape and similar effects in 3e and 5e has been that it means druids who do that kind of thing effectively can ignore physical stats and focus on mental ones, and still easily flip between powerful casting and powerful fighting abilities. Pathfinder 1 tried to fix that by having polymorph-style spells provide bonuses to ability scores instead, but that meant that using them would be super complex as you basically had to recalculate your whole character.

In PF2 we instead have the Battle Form mechanic, where you basically replace your own relevant stats with those of the form. That's really powerful, but in most cases you need to use a top-level spell slot in order to get stats relevant against the foes you're fighting. But wild druids get to do that as a focus spell. That might just be the strongest focus spell in the game. So as a cost, they need to spread their stats out a little more.

Also, wild druids already have some incentive to boost Strength because if their melee attack is strong enough, their attack bonus in wild form will be higher.

(Note: this is about why Form Control had Strength requirements in the first place. No idea why they dropped it from Form Control but kept it for the higher-level version.)

[The Raven Black]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Revresbo wrote:

I was thrilled when I was looking over Player Core to find that the 4th-level Druid feat Form Control no longer had a Strength prerequisite. I never understood how a high Strength translated into "muscle memory" or why it would be necessary for either flavour or balancing when it came to the benefits of Form Control.

I believe the intent was to force wild druids to spend some resources on Strength. It's a weird place to push that requirement though.

A problem with wild shape and similar effects in 3e and 5e has been that it means druids who do that kind of thing effectively can ignore physical stats and focus on mental ones, and still easily flip between powerful casting and powerful fighting abilities. Pathfinder 1 tried to fix that by having polymorph-style spells provide bonuses to ability scores instead, but that meant that using them would be super complex as you basically had to recalculate your whole character.

In PF2 we instead have the Battle Form mechanic, where you basically replace your own relevant stats with those of the form. That's really powerful, but in most cases you need to use a top-level spell slot in order to get stats relevant against the foes you're fighting. But wild druids get to do that as a focus spell. That might just be the strongest focus spell in the game. So as a cost, they need to spread their stats out a little more.

Also, wild druids already have some incentive to boost Strength because if their melee attack is strong enough, their attack bonus in wild form will be higher.

(Note: this is about why Form Control had Strength requirements in the first place. No idea why they dropped it from Form Control but kept it for the higher-level version.)

You could be a perfectly viable wild druid without ever taking pre-Remaster Form Control though.

[Karneios]

I always guessed the strength requirement on form control was there to be a sorta guide to that if you were gonna use the form controlled forms in combat you'd want high strength anyway to have better accuracy from using your own unarmed attack mod

[Baarogue]

I don't play Durids (sic) in PF2e, but after whipping up some maths here comparing a min str druid vs a max str druid vs the various wild shape forms, I see only very brief windows when one's own Unarmed Attack bonus total exceeds that provided by wild shape, even when reduced in level by form control. Even the min str druid can frequently meet and exceed the form controlled wild shape's attack bonus, YET not even the max str druid can consistently exceed non-form controlled wild morph's attack bonus. Not only that, but a battle formed druid loses their own str's damage bonus, so that's even less incentive to invest in str

My opinion is that the str requirement was removed from form control intentionally because it was a worthless attribute tax, and probably should have been removed from perfect form control as well

correct me if my math is off. as if you wouldn't already lol:

Level Min Str Druid Max Str Druid Wild Morph Attack Bonus (Form Controlled)
1 +2 +6
2 +4 (WP +1) +8
3 +5 +9 2nd +9
5 +7 (Str boost) +12 3rd +13/14
7 +9 +14 4th +16 (+9)
9 +11 +16 5th +17/18 (+13/14)
10 +13 (WP +2) +18
11 +16 (UA expert) +21 6th +21/22/23 (+16)
13 +18 +23 7th +25 (+17/18)
15 +20 (Str boost) +26 8th +28 (+21/22/23)
16 +22 (WP +3) +28
17 +23 +29 9th +31 (+25)
19 +25 +31 10th +34

f-it I need to drive somewhere and don't have time to figure out how to preserve formatting. you can figure out what I meant >_<

[Baarogue]

Back from my drive and can't edit my post. Also note those are premaster numbers. I haven't added it up with the new math

[Guntermench]

Karneios wrote:

I always guessed the strength requirement on form control was there to be a sorta guide to that if you were gonna use the form controlled forms in combat you'd want high strength anyway to have better accuracy from using your own unarmed attack mod

That only works if you're using a spell that caps out below your current maximum, or on like 4 levels otherwise. Building to use your own bonus is largely pointless if you're using the most recent form spell."

[Gaulin]

Guntermench wrote:

Karneios wrote:

I always guessed the strength requirement on form control was there to be a sorta guide to that if you were gonna use the form controlled forms in combat you'd want high strength anyway to have better accuracy from using your own unarmed attack mod

That only works if you're using a spell that caps out below your current maximum, or on like 4 levels otherwise. Building to use your own bonus is largely pointless if you're using the most recent form spell."

I think that's the point, perfect form control is a form spell 2 ranks lower than your max. To make it less of a trap for some players, giving a 4 str requirement makes the feat work much better when you use your own attack bonus.

[pauljathome]

Guntermench wrote:

Karneios wrote:

I always guessed the strength requirement on form control was there to be a sorta guide to that if you were gonna use the form controlled forms in combat you'd want high strength anyway to have better accuracy from using your own unarmed attack mod

That only works if you're using a spell that caps out below your current maximum, or on like 4 levels otherwise. Building to use your own bonus is largely pointless if you're using the most recent form spell."

The Form Control feat is significantly more useful for martials dipping into druid than it is for druids. It can let them avoid the 2 action shifting cost a fair bit of the time and, depending on level and group the tradeoff of +2 to hit vs a little lower damage and AC may be a good one.

There is also the issue that. RAW. you MUST always cast wild shape at the highest level. Many GMs ignore that but it IS the rule. Form Control lets you cast the spell 2 ranks lower. Which may be exactly what you need when there just isn't room to be large or huge in the dungeon you're currently in.

[Staffan Johansson]

Baarogue wrote:

Even the min str druid can frequently meet and exceed the form controlled wild shape's attack bonus, YET not even the max str druid can consistently exceed non-form controlled wild morph's attack bonus.

Remember that the Wild Shape feat gives a +2 status bonus when using your own attack bonus. So, as an example, an 11th level druid who started with Str 16/+3 would have an attack bonus of +23 (proficiency 15 + Str 4 + item 2 + status 2), while the actual options for a 6th level wild shape (depending on what feats you've taken) give attack values between +21 and +23.

[Guntermench]

pauljathome wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

Karneios wrote:

I always guessed the strength requirement on form control was there to be a sorta guide to that if you were gonna use the form controlled forms in combat you'd want high strength anyway to have better accuracy from using your own unarmed attack mod

That only works if you're using a spell that caps out below your current maximum, or on like 4 levels otherwise. Building to use your own bonus is largely pointless if you're using the most recent form spell."

The Form Control feat is significantly more useful for martials dipping into druid than it is for druids. It can let them avoid the 2 action shifting cost a fair bit of the time and, depending on level and group the tradeoff of +2 to hit vs a little lower damage and AC may be a good one.

There is also the issue that. RAW. you MUST always cast wild shape at the highest level. Many GMs ignore that but it IS the rule. Form Control lets you cast the spell 2 ranks lower. Which may be exactly what you need when there just isn't room to be large or huge in the dungeon you're currently in.

The size thing only lasts so long though, then -2 level still caps out the spell.

[The Raven Black]

Gaulin wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

Karneios wrote:

I always guessed the strength requirement on form control was there to be a sorta guide to that if you were gonna use the form controlled forms in combat you'd want high strength anyway to have better accuracy from using your own unarmed attack mod

That only works if you're using a spell that caps out below your current maximum, or on like 4 levels otherwise. Building to use your own bonus is largely pointless if you're using the most recent form spell."

I think that's the point, perfect form control is a form spell 2 ranks lower than your max. To make it less of a trap for some players, giving a 4 str requirement makes the feat work much better when you use your own attack bonus.

It is an odd reason to forbid some Druids from taking the feat though.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Remember that the Wild Shape feat gives a +2 status bonus when using your own attack bonus. So, as an example, an 11th level druid who started with Str 16/+3 would have an attack bonus of +23 (proficiency 15 + Str 4 + item 2 + status 2), while the actual options for a 6th level wild shape (depending on what feats you've taken) give attack values between +21 and +23.

Weird grey area of the rules, the form spells say you can only use your own bonus if it is higher, the focus spell says it only applies when you use your own bonus. Technically you can't use it to determine your personal bonus as being higher, but I don't think this was intended... just paizo trying to make sure people didn't hamstring their characters by accident.

[Gortle]

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

Staffan Johansson wrote:

Remember that the Wild Shape feat gives a +2 status bonus when using your own attack bonus. So, as an example, an 11th level druid who started with Str 16/+3 would have an attack bonus of +23 (proficiency 15 + Str 4 + item 2 + status 2), while the actual options for a 6th level wild shape (depending on what feats you've taken) give attack values between +21 and +23.

Weird grey area of the rules, the form spells say you can only use your own bonus if it is higher, the focus spell says it only applies when you use your own bonus.

That is crystal clear not grey

The Gleeful Grognard wrote:

Technically you can't use it to determine your personal bonus as being higher, but I don't think this was intended... just paizo trying to make sure people didn't hamstring their characters by accident.

Maybe. But the actual rule is clear, you just doubt it is reasonable.

[The Gleeful Grognard]

Querying what you think you are pointing out here and what you expect to get out of it.

I quite clearly said that there was a weird RAW interaction, the Grey part is to do with RAI lol.

Was it just a strange attempt at being snarky because I didn't phrase it in exactly the way that would please your almonds?

I was literally brining attention to the RAW interaction as someone had thought it worked differently.