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I have to notice that many light spells has verbal component, so if reading was mandatory it would make those scrolls much useless as you couldn’t use it on darkness.
Also notice that material component is replaced by somatic, which you can use with the same hand holding the scroll.
With the written rules and after thinking about all this I see scrolls more like you hold it in your hand (even rolled) and using an activating word if has verbal component, then the scroll banish and it creates the effect.
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I think I've maybe been less clear on my position regarding this issue than I should have been.
I don't think you need to be able to read the scroll at the time of casting.
But I think you definitely need to be able to read (or perceive precisely in the case of a scroll that isn't ink on parchment or something close) the scroll to identify it.
Something I noticed because of this topic is that nowhere that I've seen (and please correct me if I'm wrong) does it say you have to identify the spell on a scroll prior to using it.
You have to have the spell on your list, provide the correct number and type of actions (plus added Somatic if it previously had Material), and you must have the appropriate focus, if applicable.
Crucially, nothing I've found says that spell components are unique to each spell or anything. So technically I think you can grab a scroll, guess it has verbal and somatic components, hope it's on your spell list, and go.
I think that's kind of interesting.
But recalling or identifying a scroll, I think, definitely requires you to see it (if it's common and on your list so you can Recall it with a single action) or read it (if it's not and you need to make an Identify Magic check to identify it).
I guess one issue is that a room could have many mundane scrolls, but a quipu of magic missile that uses magic scroll rules. I think IDing it is part of any magic identifying activity tho.
Spell and formula books are called out as having alternates as seen in the iconic alchemist. I can’t see a big leap from that to alternate media scrolls.
That said … good luck identifying it in the dark. Torch goblin ancestry feat could help … but would it affect the scroll itself? (I’d say yes, yes it does, for the humour value.)
I've been gone for a while, and see my question raised a lot of discussion, some of it pretty fringe stuff.
So the way I treat scrolls (below) would appear to be a house rule, based on RPG tradition more than current PF2 rules.
My house rules on scrolls:
- Scrolls are written scripture, and this has numerous consequences.
- They are written in a language. If you can't read the language, you need special means to read them. Many arcane and occult spellcasters use Draconic, but many use common or whatever language is most prevalent in their region. Necromantic spells might be written in Necril, for example. The creator of a scroll can write them in any language he knows.
- They require sight to read them, so blindness and darkness (without darkvision) make scrolls unusable.
- They are often fragile, and adverse conditions (burning, or submersion in water) can destroy a scroll.
These elements seem to be assumed, in PF2, even if there are no actual rules references for them. But I have no problem with them being house rules.
YMMV.
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Yes. Those are all carryover assumptions from other game systems like PF1.
PF2 does not have any of that as actual rules for scrolls.
And demanding Necril for Necromancy spells is... just so bad. I suppose I haven't seen one PC which knew it in 3 years of play.
Well, requiring knowing Necril in order to use Scrolls of Heal would have the effect of increasing the value of Intelligence boosts. And the Society skill and the Multilingual feat.
But yeah, definitely something that you are going to want to bring up during session zero.
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Yeah, there's some goofy arguments here. Benign reflavoring is not in any way cheating or exploitative when the mechanics are identical.
I don't defend the word cheating (I don't consider that cheating) but reflavoring has to be approved by the GM. If I want my Full Plate to be a stone armor, it's benign reflavoring but it has to be approved nonetheless.
Also, reflavoring an item into something it isn't at all can be considered more than benign as now people may not realize your item is a Scroll. If the party meets an enemy who seems to cast spells from prayer beads, players may not immediately understand that the enemy is burning the loot.
Yeah, there's some goofy arguments here. Benign reflavoring is not in any way cheating or exploitative when the mechanics are identical.I don't defend the word cheating (I don't consider that cheating) but reflavoring has to be approved by the GM.
Do you still defend the language dependence of having to 'read' a scroll?
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Do you still defend the language dependence of having to 'read' a scroll?Yeah, there's some goofy arguments here. Benign reflavoring is not in any way cheating or exploitative when the mechanics are identical.I don't defend the word cheating (I don't consider that cheating) but reflavoring has to be approved by the GM.
There's a history of scrolls and because PF2 doesn't change it I base myself on it (it is canon in the Pathfinder universe). Historically, scrolls can be read without knowing any specific language so I consider it must be some form of language commonly used by casters sharing the same tradition.
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This conversation is interesting because I have never run scrolls as parchment you need to read. I have always thought that scrolls basically had magical instructions written into the parchment and by pushing magic through it it "runs" the instructions and creates the effect.
Kind of like the scroll being a macro, the writing being the code, and the caster just needing to execute it by pushing magic through.
Its also why someone who can't cast a spell can't cast a scroll. Its not that they can't read it, but that they don't have the magic to execute the command.
It also solves the sticky problem of characters with disabilities, language barriers, and light levels.
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This conversation is interesting because I have never run scrolls as parchment you need to read. I have always thought that scrolls basically had magical instructions written into the parchment and by pushing magic through it it "runs" the instructions and creates the effect.
Kind of like the scroll being a macro, the writing being the code, and the caster just needing to execute it by pushing magic through.
Its also why someone who can't cast a spell can't cast a scroll. Its not that they can't read it, but that they don't have the magic to execute the command.
It also solves the sticky problem of characters with disabilities, language barriers, and light levels.
Interesting and makes sense … until we sort out how to Trick it to work, simce the feat only requires skill proficiency, not spellcastimg, I think.
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Interesting and makes sense … until we sort out how to Trick it to work, simce the feat only requires skill proficiency, not spellcastimg, I think.This conversation is interesting because I have never run scrolls as parchment you need to read. I have always thought that scrolls basically had magical instructions written into the parchment and by pushing magic through it it "runs" the instructions and creates the effect.
Kind of like the scroll being a macro, the writing being the code, and the caster just needing to execute it by pushing magic through.
Its also why someone who can't cast a spell can't cast a scroll. Its not that they can't read it, but that they don't have the magic to execute the command.
It also solves the sticky problem of characters with disabilities, language barriers, and light levels.Under that interpretation you probably do it the same way.
It's just that you don't personally know how to shape magical energy into a spell, but your knowledge of the specific magical tradition (as represented by your skill proficiency and skill feat) still allows you to push the required magical energy into the scroll.
(either from yourself or ambient magic from the world in general depending on how your game table has magic work).
I would say that, when activated, the scroll gets in synch with your magic (ie, your spell list) and this unlocks its magical energies and the spell is cast.
Trick Magic Item actually makes the scroll believe it is in synch. It then unlocks its magical energies and the spell is cast.
Same as making a password check believe that you entered the correct password.
Trick Magic Item actually makes the scroll believe it is in synch. It then unlocks its magical energies and the spell is cast.
This implies that "magic" is some kind of (semi-)intelligent entity. Not sure I buy that.
Trick Magic Item actually makes the scroll believe it is in synch. It then unlocks its magical energies and the spell is cast.This implies that "magic" is some kind of (semi-)intelligent entity. Not sure I buy that.
I mean we have spells that are limited or have requirements based on gold value, which indicates that magic is sensitive to economic conditions. So maybe.
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Trick Magic Item actually makes the scroll believe it is in synch. It then unlocks its magical energies and the spell is cast.This implies that "magic" is some kind of (semi-)intelligent entity. Not sure I buy that.
Is the password checking system intelligent ?
Not to mention the name of the feat implies that magical items can be tricked.
This recently came up for me as well. After perusing all the rules for the Core Rulebook, Player Core (Cast a Spell), and GM Core (everything scrolls) I can only conclude that you do not need to be able to see the scroll. You merely need to have it in hand and be able to use the Cast a Spell action.
I would require my player's characters to be able to read/identify the scroll, but they could do that in advance, then recite the written scroll's incantations from memory in the dark.
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Good thing p2e doesn't use that definition. It can be all sorts of things without needing a houserule.GMC P262: "MAGIC SCROLL. Item 1+. Usage: held in one hand. Bulk: light. This roll of paper or parchment contains a single spell..."
Though, personally, I like the idea of different traditions, ancestries, whatever using different media. I'd allow it for theming and flavor. Though not for janky-get-around-some-rule purposes.
Nowhere in that description does it say that the scroll needs to be read. So it isn't a janky-get-around-some-rule when the rule doesn't exist.
Copy from other thread:
I think the default assumption is you have to read it. As mentioned, that's simply how scrolls work, so much so one wouldn't need to point it out in the rules. BUT take for example Inuyasha and other Asian fantasy media where priests often use scroll-like magic items, paper charms which hold written spells. Except they're typically activated with a prayer rather than by reading the spell, and often they're throwing the scroll as they activate it. So in a Tian-themed campaign, I'd likely allow it, opening the door to considering it in standard games too, though for now I wouldn't allow it in PFS games, expecting full support from the local officers.
I imagine the PF2 scroll like a circuit with batteries (magic/mana) included. If you know how to activate it you can activate and use it as it was designed. Read the scroll runes isn't required at same way that you don't need to understand how an electronic circuit works to use it just how to operate it.
And as the same way that an electronic engineer could lear how a circuit works analyzing it, a spell caster can learn new spells doing the same with scrolls.
SoM makes a pretty fun lore concept of many spell-casters describing and theorizing how the magic works and reaching to different conclusions and making different way to reach the same result (or closer). IMO Paizo designers make the way how each scrolls works and how each spell-caster deal with it open to each character to be able to do its own way to deal with it. Maybe a Wizard can really read and cast the scrolls runes while using it while a witch can absorbs its magic while cast it with other hand in a similar way that its familiar devour the scrolls to learn theirs spells, a cleric can pray to its deity to activate the sacred document and a druid can chant it in a wildsong.
Or a rogue can simply use its knowledge to apply tricks to make a scroll work without even open or fully understand it!
The game mechanics gives a free way to deal with the scrolls in a way that you think that is more fun and makes more sense to your character.
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On the other hand, that is the narrative description text of one feat. Certainly not something that I consider enough justification to add the Linguistic trait to the general rules for scrolls and then enforce.
RAI arguments go both ways. So we can sit here arguing about it indefinitely.
Edit: Also, in thinking about it - are you actually intending to imply that characters that don't have that feat also don't need to read the scroll?
IMO Paizo designers make the way how each scrolls works and how each spell-caster deal with it open to each character to be able to do its own way to deal with it.Paizo wrote "Skim Scroll". And when they did that, they did not make it open. To skim a scroll you must read it. Every 'skim scroll' feat user, from every tradition, every ancestry, culture, etc. Reading the scroll is part of the feat.
Given that, my best guess as to the RAI is that using scrolls involves reading them, and this is not said directly simply because the devs did not think that they had to say it.
If you subscribe to a reading of the rules that this is not the case, then you open up your game to scrolls that are "unskimmable." In such a game, "scroll" crafters can merely designate their version of scroll as containing no words, and so their scroll is not possible to 'cursory read.' But IMO this is clearly not the design intent. The design intent of Skim Scroll is you can try it on any scroll. Which means every scroll can be 'cursory read'... which means all scrolls must be capable of being read.
Skim Scroll is a feat specifically made for Scroll Trickster and what's it confirms is that the scrolls have something write in them (what we already know) but not that you must need to read it to cast including the fact the you are not using them like other casters your are tricking it.
Including that the Scroll Trickster's Basic Scroll Cache description that makes the theory that I described that scrolls works like a equivalent to a circuit but for magic and the Scroll Trickster is able to do a workaround to create its own temporary scrolls. Anyway the fact that those who uses Trick Magic Item to use a scroll may need to read it (or part of it) in order to understand it before activate it doesn't means that all other spellcasters will activate it in the same way.
Good thing p2e doesn't use that definition. It can be all sorts of things without needing a houserule.GMC P262: "MAGIC SCROLL. Item 1+. Usage: held in one hand. Bulk: light. This roll of paper or parchment contains a single spell..."
Though, personally, I like the idea of different traditions, ancestries, etc. using different media. I'd allow quipu, flower arrangements, whatever for theming and flavor. Though not for janky-get-around-some-rule purposes.
This being the Rules forum though, RAW is "this roll of paper or parchment."
I’m now imagining a bouquet of roses as a Charm Person spell scroll, thanks. Or a Fireball scroll as a comic in the Order of the Stick style.
That said, I’d probably limit it to ‘fixed’ means (inspired by some bits from the US Copyright Act). Writing on scroll? Yes. Quipu? Yes. Flower arrangement? No, that daisy could rotate a few degrees and now Charm Monster becomes Acid Grip and now the troll you were trying to charm is mad,