A guy pointed out something odd in the PF2 rules.
At no point does it actually specify that you need to read a scroll to activate it, or that the blinded condition or total darkness or being underwater would be an impediment to casting a spell from a scroll. Or that a scroll might be written in some off-beat language that the spellcaster can't in fact read.
My gut feeling is that a scroll, by its nature as "magical scripture", requires being able to see and understand the writing on it. But on closer examination, this sort of restriction doesn't appear to be present in the PF2 rules - unless I missed it, in some out-of-the-way spot.
Sure, we know the action cost, and the need for a free hand to hold it (barring various special items) and the requirement to have it on your spell list.
But... what about the need to actually read the scroll?
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But... what about the need to actually read the scroll?
Nothing is written about how a sword is supposed to be handled and that holding it by the blade is not the good thing to do.
Nothing is written about how wearing an armor works and that putting it inside out doesn't work.Etc...
There's an amount of interpretation of the rules. Clearly, being blinded seems to be a strong impediment to cast from a scroll. As for the language, if you don't want any issue just use scrolls crafted by goblins, they have all these beautiful drawings to explain you what to do.
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I assume, when GMing, that the scrolls are written in a magical language, like runes and the like, that anyone who has the ability to use that tradition just knows. It's a lot less bookkeeping for both players and the GM.
I'd also rule that you'd have to be able to actually read it. IE: you'd need light, or to not be blinded.
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My gut feeling is that a scroll, by its nature as "magical scripture", requires being able to see and understand the writing on it. But on closer examination, this sort of restriction doesn't appear to be present in the PF2 rules - unless I missed it, in some out-of-the-way spot.
Yes, the rules of what a scroll looks like is deliberately left vague. There are the mechanical requirements for it - light bulk, held in one hand, activated with the Cast a Spell item activation.
But the traditional 'roll of parchment with magical writing on it' is only one possible way of crafting and describing a scroll.
You could also have a scroll that is a piece of string with specific knots tied in it at particular places. Or a scroll that is a stick with carved notches.
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If you find a scroll, you can try to figure out what spell it contains. If the spell is a common spell from your spell list or a spell you know, you can spend a single Recall Knowledge action and automatically succeed at identifying the scroll’s spell. If it’s not, you must use Identify Magic (page 238) to learn what spell the scroll holds.
As a GM, unless otherwise specified, I'd assume scroll were written with something akin to ink which is visible under normal light and not visible otherwise. If someone attempted to identify the meaning of words on paper without being able to see the words, unless they're at least Master but probably Legendary in an appropriate mental skill (Arcana, Religion, Nature, Occultism for a magical scroll, Society for non-magical writing, probably) and THEN succeeded at a very difficult Decipher Writing check, I wouldn't have them be able to even attempt the Recall Knowledge check, nor would I permit them to attempt Identifying Magic on the scroll.
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If you find a scroll, you can try to figure out what spell it contains. If the spell is a common spell from your spell list or a spell you know, you can spend a single Recall Knowledge action and automatically succeed at identifying the scroll’s spell. If it’s not, you must use Identify Magic (page 238) to learn what spell the scroll holds.As a GM, unless otherwise specified, I'd assume scroll were written with something akin to ink which is visible under normal light and not visible otherwise. If someone attempted to identify the meaning of words on paper without being able to see the words, unless they're at least Master but probably Legendary in an appropriate mental skill (Arcana, Religion, Nature, Occultism for a magical scroll, Society for non-magical writing, probably) and THEN succeeded at a very difficult Decipher Writing check, I wouldn't have them be able to even attempt the Recall Knowledge check, nor would I permit them to attempt Identifying Magic on the scroll.
Are you using the PF2 rules for that?
Or is this just based on expectations set by setting and lore from books, movies, other TTRPG games, and other stories?
From a pure rules standpoint, it seems really harsh to impose that as a rule when the rules don't say anything of the sort as far as I can tell. From what I have read, a blind character should be able to tell what spell is stored on a scroll just fine. They don't have the linguistic trait, so you don't need to share a language with the scroll's creator. The PF1 rules regarding Read Magic and Deciphering scrolls were not included in PF2.
If you and your players all want to run the game with scrolls that have to be read, you can do that. But remember that the 1st rule does require opt-in from all of the players.
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Are you using the PF2 rules for that?
scroll
noun [ C ]UK /skrəʊl/ US /skroʊl/
A long roll of paper or similar material with usually official writing on it:
The ancient Egyptians stored information on scrolls.
Now, you can houserule that a scroll can be "a piece of string with specific knots tied in it at particular places" but that's definitely not the definition of scroll.
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Are you using the PF2 rules for that?scroll
noun [ C ]
UK /skrəʊl/ US /skroʊl/
A long roll of paper or similar material with usually official writing on it:
The ancient Egyptians stored information on scrolls.Now, you can houserule that a scroll can be "a piece of string with specific knots tied in it at particular places" but that's definitely not the definition of scroll.
I asked specifically about PF2 rules.
Anything in here that you are seeing that references text or writing in any form?
Because from what I am reading, even the process for crafting a scroll involves no parchment, paper, or other similar surface and involves no writing at all. You just have to have someone cast the spell, which is 'trapped' inside the scroll item.
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Are you using the PF2 rules for that?scroll
noun [ C ]
UK /skrəʊl/ US /skroʊl/
A long roll of paper or similar material with usually official writing on it:
The ancient Egyptians stored information on scrolls.Now, you can houserule that a scroll can be "a piece of string with specific knots tied in it at particular places" but that's definitely not the definition of scroll.
The definition sounds pretty problematic for those who rely on darkvision.
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Anything in here that you are seeing that references text or writing in any form?
The title of the chapter.
You state that because Paizo doesn't give a definition to scroll you are making your own definition instead of relying on the English one. That's an interpretation I don't agree with, but whatever. But you definitely can't state that the interpretation that a scroll is a piece of paper with writings on it is not backed up by the rules.The definition sounds pretty problematic for those who rely on darkvision.
A creature with darkvision or greater darkvision can see perfectly well in areas of darkness and dim light, though such vision is in black and white only.
What's the issue with darkvision?
Old school Darkvision, maybe as far back infravision, couldn't read (though I dimly recall a special ink that could be read). That would sometimes lead to some underground races having some lit areas. I think module A4, a finale for tournament play, even provided scrolls the party couldn't use until they secured a light source (them having started with nearly zero resources in a cave). But yeah, not sure "can't read" holds up in PF2 as it's dropped a lot of messy elements if they didn't have the flavor to warrant them.
Scroll is a term about text or writing, much like a book or tome would be. And nothing more, as in how many people would ask "Is it a written scroll I'd have to read to use?" when their PCs find a scroll in their loot?
I'd think zero, meaning it's straightforward except for the sake of inclusion or Rule of Cool. Which are noteworthy factors IMO. Adjustments for the former would depend on context. The latter would allow for alternate "scrolls" for different cultures, as long as they had the same mechanical access/cost in actions and hands/risk/etc. Any shenanigans though and that experiment would end.
I can't recall language being a factor with scrolls, even old school ones in plain writing (no Read Magic necessary, which many spells needed). That might have been because of Common being default, but Golarion uses alternate languages often so I'm pretty sure we would've seen "Elven scrolls" (et al) by now if those were a thing. In PF2 scrolls do seem written in a magical script that those familiar with any one of the spell's traditions can read. So kinda bizarre, and not how languages work.
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If you find a scroll, you can try to figure out what spell it contains. If the spell is a common spell from your spell list or a spell you know, you can spend a single Recall Knowledge action and automatically succeed at identifying the scroll’s spell. If it’s not, you must use Identify Magic (page 238) to learn what spell the scroll holds.As a GM, unless otherwise specified, I'd assume scroll were written with something akin to ink which is visible under normal light and not visible otherwise. If someone attempted to identify the meaning of words on paper without being able to see the words, unless they're at least Master but probably Legendary in an appropriate mental skill (Arcana, Religion, Nature, Occultism for a magical scroll, Society for non-magical writing, probably) and THEN succeeded at a very difficult Decipher Writing check, I wouldn't have them be able to even attempt the Recall Knowledge check, nor would I permit them to attempt Identifying Magic on the scroll.Are you using the PF2 rules for that?
Or is this just based on expectations set by setting and lore from books, movies, other TTRPG games, and other stories?
From a pure rules standpoint, it seems really harsh to impose that as a rule when the rules don't say anything of the sort as far as I can tell. From what I have read, a blind character should be able to tell what spell is stored on a scroll just fine. They don't have the linguistic trait, so you don't need to share a language with the scroll's creator. The PF1 rules regarding Read Magic and Deciphering scrolls were not included in PF2.
If you and your players all want to run the game with scrolls that have to be read, you can do that. But remember that the 1st rule does require opt-in from all of the players.
A character who is blind all the time or one who suddenly becomes blinded? Because there's likely to be some differences.
If I were GMing for a character who is blind, I'd probably handle things a little differently, but when making generalized posts on the forums I'm not trying to account for every edge case.So yes, I assume scrolls are some form of written consumable spell because in the absence of rules text telling me otherwise: words have meaning.
Nothing in the rules say that a Longsword is, by default, made of some sort of metal. But unless specified otherwise, it seems like a pretty safe assumption to make.
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So yes, I assume scrolls are some form of written consumable spell because in the absence of rules text telling me otherwise: words have meaning.
Oracles that have nothing specific to do with oracular abilities ?
Gunslingers that use crossbows ?
Those are things in the game.
A Scroll (the game term) is a Light item. That's it.
Now, Fulu and Missive are explicitly described. But not Scrolls. Best to assume nothing.
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Scrolls are magical scriptures that hold the necessary magic to cast a particular spell without using your spell slots. The Price listed in the table is for a scroll with a common 1st-level spell. For more on scrolls, see page 564.
scripture
noun
scrip·ture ˈskrip(t)-shər
1
a(1)
capitalized : the books of the Bible
—often used in plural
(2)
often capitalized : a passage from the Bible
b
: a body of writings considered sacred or authoritative
2
: something written
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Scrolls are magical scriptures that hold the necessary magic to cast a particular spell without using your spell slots. The Price listed in the table is for a scroll with a common 1st-level spell. For more on scrolls, see page 564.scripture
noun
scrip·ture ˈskrip(t)-shər
1
a(1)
capitalized : the books of the Bible
—often used in plural
(2)
often capitalized : a passage from the Bible
b
: a body of writings considered sacred or authoritative
2
: something written
Thank you. I had not seen that.
My problems with that ruling that scrolls must be written text on parchment and therefore it has to be read:
It imposes mechanical limits and penalties that are not even hinted at in the rules. Even though those limits and penalties already have mechanical terms for imposing them. Such as the Linguistic trait.
The immediate predecessor of these rules for scrolls (in PF1 scrolls, Magical Writing, and Read Magic spell) did involve requiring scrolls to be written text that had to be read. Those rules appear to have been deliberately left behind and not updated and migrated over into PF2.
It hampers the creative options of players for no good reason.
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So the argument of 'But English' is not accepted.
If you want to have your campaign setting have all scrolls be 'written text on parchment', you can certainly do so. But that is not a stated rule required for all games.
Calling it a 'houserule' that scrolls can have different forms or that you don't need to read them (because the rules don't say that you do have to read them) - that is an unjustified pejorative and is not accurate.
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If I find a Quipu of Magic Missile, I would expect it to follow the same rules as a scroll. Including not needing to use a Society check to decipher writing in order to know that it contains Magic Missile. Because the rules do not call for that.
A scroll is defined. It in not described very specifically. But it is defined.
A Quipu of Magic Missile or a Tally of Burning Hands meets that definition.
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Well, that's certainly curious for sure.
It seems that there is absolutely nothing at all stopping anyone from making quite literally anything at all that can be held in one hand and has light bulk into a scroll that explodes/evaporates into nothing once used.
A Scroll could be a Dagger, a stone, or a mug of ale and it doesn't have to have any writing on it whatsoever and at the same time doing this would almost certainly disguise it to anyone who doesn't already know it is, in fact, a Scroll already or has the ability to be hands-on with it to spend a bunch of time investigating the things.
Odd.....
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Odd.....
Yes. Curious how Read Magic isn't a spell any more, but Detect Magic is a spell and Identify Magic is a skill-based activity.
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A Scroll could be a Dagger, a stone, or a mug of ale and it doesn't have to have any writing on it whatsoever and at the same time doing this would almost certainly disguise it to anyone who doesn't already know it is, in fact, a Scroll already or has the ability to be hands-on with it to spend a bunch of time investigating the things.
Also, items don't serve double duty mechanically as far as I know.
So a scroll could be shaped like a decorative dagger, but it would still be a scroll, not a dagger.
A scroll is a scroll, because it is called a scroll. Similarily, a book is a book because it is called a book. And a rock is a rock because it is called a rock. The RAW is incapable of having detailed descriptions of every single item in existence because then the rulebook would be 50,000 pages if it did.
I disagree with both of those statements on a fundamental level.
A scroll is a scroll because it follows the mechanical rules for a scroll. Same with a rock or a book.
The game does not need to describe every single item in existence. It needs to define the mechanics of things that have mechanical impact, such as scrolls, wands, weapons, armor, and toolkits.
Reskinning is not the same as houseruling. A scroll is still a scroll even if it is shaped as a piece of string with knots instead of a rolled parchment with writing. In both cases it is not language-dependent - which is what the original poster's question was - because PF2 does not have any language dependency on scrolls. There is no mechanical need to decipher the scroll other than the magical tradition check (not a language check) that the scroll rules require to identify the spell the scroll contains if it is not already known.
You disagree that a rock is a rock?
Please do not deliberately misrepresent what I said.
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A Scroll could be a Dagger, a stone, or a mug of ale and it doesn't have to have any writing on it whatsoever and at the same time doing this would almost certainly disguise it to anyone who doesn't already know it is, in fact, a Scroll already or has the ability to be hands-on with it to spend a bunch of time investigating the things.Also, items don't serve double duty mechanically as far as I know.
So a scroll could be shaped like a decorative dagger, but it would still be a scroll, not a dagger.
I'm not too sure about that. As written you can provide anything to be the Scroll so long as it is less than the total cost of the Scroll you are making and you use the Crafting Check with all of the other steps and investment involved. Saying it can't be a Dagger would use the same logic as saying that a paper/parchment-based Scroll is no longer paper or parchment once you finish crafting.
You disagree that a rock is a rock?Please do not deliberately misrepresent what I said.
I disagree with both of those statements on a fundamental level.A scroll is a scroll because it follows the mechanical rules for a scroll. Same with a rock or a book.
A scroll is a scroll if it follows the mechanics for a scroll.
A rock is a rock if it follows the mechanics for a rock.
That is a very different statement than trying to claim that I said that I disagree that a rock is a rock.
And yes, this conversation is over if you cannot or will not read what I write in good faith.
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A scroll is a scroll because it follows the mechanical rules for a scroll. Same with a rock or a book.
Definitely not. If I could use that logic, I'd be able to get so many shenanigans.
For example, the description of the Bo Staff doesn't state anything on how I can attack with it. So I decide that I control it with my spirit, making my attacks purely mental (Strike only has the Attack trait, not the Manipulate one). Thanks to that, I can now attack while Paralyzed.
A scroll is a scroll, and nothing else. You have all the right in the world to reskin it as a GM, because that's your home game. But per strict RAW, when a word is not specifically defined in the rules you have to use the English dictionary.
I think it doesn't require you to read it for activating, just hold it, as you already read it to identify the spell. This is, probably you don't even need to unroll it, just hold it in your hand.
But you need to get the right scroll, so if you have multiple in the same bag, you know.
An example of how it could be (copy and paste):
https://youtu.be/hyPk3Z_yAWU?feature=shared
He just hold it and activate, then the scroll is consumed.
A scroll is a scroll because it follows the mechanical rules for a scroll. Same with a rock or a book.Definitely not. If I could use that logic, I'd be able to get so many shenanigans.
For example, the description of the Bo Staff doesn't state anything on how I can attack with it. So I decide that I control it with my spirit, making my attacks purely mental (Strike only has the Attack trait, not the Manipulate one). Thanks to that, I can now attack while Paralyzed.
Seriously!!!???
How are you going to argue that you are following the rules for a Bo Staff using that logic? A Bo Staff is a weapon. A two-handed melee weapon. You have to use Strike to attack with it. Those are all stated mechanics rules that you have to follow.
You are literally ignoring the handedness requirement of the weapon. And ignoring the can't act rules of Paralyzed unless you are also literally adding the Mental trait to Strike that the Bo Staff does not add.
So, now try doing that for my 'scroll' that is shaped like a Quipu. What mechanical rules is it not following?
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How are you going to argue that you are following the rules for a Bo Staff using that logic? A Bo Staff is a weapon. A two-handed melee weapon. You have to use Strike to attack with it. Those are all stated mechanics rules that you have to follow.
Yes, and I follow them. Show me a line that I'm not following.
You are literally ignoring the handedness requirement of the weapon.
I hold my weapon with 2 hands, so handedness is respected.
And ignoring the can't act rules of Paralyzed unless you are also literally adding the Mental trait to Strike
Mental trait is for Mental damage. There's no trait for purely mental actions. And nothing in Strike says it can't be a purely mental action.
Anyway, that's not an interesting conversation. Changing a word for another one dismisses your ruling as being "RAW". By definition. There's not much to add.
But how is that controlling it with your spirit, like you said. You control it with 2 hands.
I think it doesn't require you to read it for activating, just hold it, as you already read it to identify the spell. This is, probably you don't even need to unroll it, just hold it in your hand.
But you need to get the right scroll, so if you have multiple in the same bag, you know.An example of how it could be (copy and paste):
https://youtu.be/hyPk3Z_yAWU?feature=shared
He just hold it and activate, then the scroll is consumed.
I would agree with this for spells you know. Otherwise you have to have the somatic components and you don't know them without reading them from the scroll. This seems to be changing with the remaster however.
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Unless rolling a piece of paper or parchment up automatically turns it into a magic item that can cast spells, I think the fact that there's a distinction between scrolls and scrolls is pretty unassailable.
The writing on a scroll isn't there to be read, anyway. It's the magical formulae that has a spell effect. The writing is encoded magic, not language.
I would agree with this for spells you know. Otherwise you have to have the somatic components and you don't know them without reading them from the scroll. This seems to be changing with the remaster however.I think it doesn't require you to read it for activating, just hold it, as you already read it to identify the spell. This is, probably you don't even need to unroll it, just hold it in your hand.
But you need to get the right scroll, so if you have multiple in the same bag, you know.An example of how it could be (copy and paste):
https://youtu.be/hyPk3Z_yAWU?feature=shared
He just hold it and activate, then the scroll is consumed.
We will wait for the remaster. But in the example notice that he didn't know the spell, and that it has nothing written but symbols. So we are assuming that you read it, but it could just have symbols and if it has verbal component is an activating word.
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So going by precedent of lore yeah scrolls are written pieces of paper that you beed to be able to read. You want to not read? Get a riffle scroll instead.
Going by rules saying "well I define scrolls to be a baked pie so I don't need to read it" is straight up cheating.
This is what you are doing: "I define electricity as internal burning, so all my electric spells actually deal fire damage and trigger weakness". Or how about, "my sword and armor is actually just a piece of paper and as such they are not affected by things that target metal". Ah there is also "well nothing says how much food/water is required to live confortably, so I will just say I need 1 teaspoon of each and take no penalty".
Who said any of that again?
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I'm chalking this up to another litmus test of which players I'm willing to play with. Seriously, some of you are the very types of players that Captain Relyk talks about.
Cheating??? Seriously? For not adding a requirement of being read that doesn't exist in the rules?
And assuming that you do need to read a scroll... what language do you need to know? What check do you need to roll?