I'm guessing this issue has been thoroughly addressed by previous threads. However separating the wheat from the chaff as it were is somewhat daunting. So, I am wondering if anybody could direct me to stuff that is worth looking at. Of course, if anybody has some novel ideas on the subject I welcome them.
The simplest option is to just cap classes at 20 and force multiclassing past level 20. Another alternative is to switch to mythic tiers after level 20, that should give a leveling feel.
If you want to advance every class past 20, then it's going to take a lot of individual work.
The big problem with going past 20th level is the power curve. Most classes get progressively tougher as they level up, so each new level increases the power of the character quite a bit. Higher level spell and class abilities are usually significantly more powerful than the lower-level spells and class abilities. For example, burning hands is a 1st level spell that does 1d4 damage up to a max of 5d4 to all targets in a 15-foot cone at 1st level. Fire ball is a 3rd level spell that does 5d6 damage up to a max of 10d6 to all targets in a 20-foot radius and has a range of 400 +40 per level. In Just 4 levels the wizard’s power increased significantly. Now figure adding 10 more levels to the wizard after and keeping that same progression. What is going to challenge a 30th level wizard?
Advanced D&D had you have to trade in equal spell levels from lower levels.
Thus you could ditch all your 1st and second spell slots for a few tenth level spells.
Alternately, There was a chance of spell failure or backfire, but that is now rituals.
I'm guessing this issue has been thoroughly addressed by previous threads. However separating the wheat from the chaff as it were is somewhat daunting. So, I am wondering if anybody could direct me to stuff that is worth looking at. Of course, if anybody has some novel ideas on the subject I welcome them.
I agree with Melkiador.
What are you aiming to achieve by going past level 20? Some context would help. If the idea is to have really epically powerful PCs within the existing rules that can match Demigods then Mythic Adventures is definitely the way to go.
If your PCs have reached 20th level already and you are not sure what to do next (and everyone still likes their existing characters) then multi-classing is probably the way to go.
If you are looking for something completely different you could try tracking down the original D&D Immortal Rules for ideas.
Some context would really help.
Much though I love the Immortal rules for BECMI, they need serious work to adapt them to PF1 (I'm going to do that sometime in the not too distant future). I think there have been a few attempts to make something d20-based out of them but off hand I cannot remember where to find them.
You could make the conversion really simple. For instance an immortal character can duplicate any ability in the Pathfinder rule set using Power Points (PP). The PP cost is equal to the minimum level required to use the ability. So 1 PP to cast a first level Wizard spell and 17 PP to cast a 9th level spell.
1 PP for 1d6 Sneak Attack and 19 PP for 10d6 sneak attack. Feats are a little trickier due to Feat trees, plus you would have to account for what level character is required.For simplicity the PP cost covers one use of the ability for the normal duration at the level specified. For example Freedom of Movement would last 120 minutes at a cost of 12 PP. For abilities that don’t have a duration like Power Attack or Sneak Attack the duration is one combat encounter.
AC and saving throws would need to be converted to Pathfinder rules, monsters would need to be taken from the Pathfinder Bestiary or converted from the Immortal Rules.
I don’t think it would be too difficult.
I agree with Melkiador.
What are you aiming to achieve by going past level 20? Some context would help. If the idea is to have really epically powerful PCs within the existing rules that can match Demigods then Mythic Adventures is definitely the way to go.
If your PCs have reached 20th level already and you are not sure what to do next (and everyone still likes their existing characters) then multi-classing is probably the way to go.
If you are looking for something completely different you could try tracking down the original D&D Immortal Rules for ideas.
Some context would really help.
I'm planning a campaign that would ultimately end with facing a full deity. They aren't necessarily meant to kill him, just fight him. Sure, you could probably do that with twenty levels and ten mythic tiers, but its specifically Cyric (a greater god in D&D parlance) and I figure they can use all the power they can obtain.
I would suggest that Mythic rules are already a bit of an analogue to the Immortals rules, you'd just need to expand them.
Also, since the campaign involves deities it might be useful to have epic rules just to stat them out.
i vaguely recall some epic/post 20 rules for 3.5, maybe in Unearthed Arcana? Might be some inspiration to be found there.
3.x had the Epic Level Handbook. This link has some of the information from that document.
https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/meta/books/3.0update/EpicLevelHandbook.html
Deities in Pathfinder are not stated out to avoid this exact reason. That being said the using the mythic rules are probably your best bet. A 20th level tier 10 mythic character is about as tough and still be playing pathfinder.
The way I would handle it would be by using plot devices, not trying to make the character powerful enough to fight a god. Maybe there is some way to limit the amount of power the deity can use. So, instead of facing the deity the party is facing an avatar of the deity.
Deities in Pathfinder are not stated out to avoid this exact reason. That being said the using the mythic rules are probably your best bet. A 20th level tier 10 mythic character is about as tough and still be playing pathfinder.
The way I would handle it would be by using plot devices, not trying to make the character powerful enough to fight a god. Maybe there is some way to limit the amount of power the deity can use. So, instead of facing the deity the party is facing an avatar of the deity.
^ That’s what I would do.
It would be fun designing an avatar to challenge level 20 mythic tier 10 PCs.
If you don’t want to start a build from scratch you could choose an existing powerful creature (Demon Lord, Archduke of Hell, Great Old One etc.) and upgrade them.
I don't necessarily feel limited by the conventions of Pathfinder, either regarding the stating of deities or limiting the levels to twenty. However, perhaps there is a way I can do this without either. By the way, the ultimate goal of the campaign is to stop Cyric from murdering Mystra, thus preventing the Spellplague (no edition warring intended, I just think it is a cool idea for a campaign).
If most deities are formed from a demiurge, Cyric was a manifestation, making it so a manifestation could not form in a specific material plane ever again. Rovagug is currently trying to find a loophole in this.
Stopping a deity and killing them are two different things. If I remember correctly the Forgotten Realms used avatar to allow characters to interact with deities. It seems to me the first thing you need to do is to figure out what the players are going to be dealing with. Without that being done trying to figure out how powerful the characters can get and the rules for that is pointless. That is like trying to make plans for an event without knowing how many people are showing up. You don’t want to do the equivalent of renting a site that can hold 1,000 people and 50 people show up.
I have stated out a few avatars for some deities. What I usually do is use both the gestalt rules and mythic rules. A 20th level gestalt character with 10 mythic tiers can actually function as deity. Take the mythic path abilities of Longevity, and Divine Source. I used a 25 point buy but put them at venerable age. Longevity prevented penalties but allowed bonuses. I also used the auto bonus progression rules to avoid needed the big 6 magic items.
A 17th level wizard can literally stop time. If you want to go post-20th level, PCs should he getting divine ranks, not class levels.
Deities have portfolios, which can be acquired by breaking off from the demiurge, or acquiring them from them being currently unused. Killing a manifestation makes you first in line to grab a portfolio.
A portfolio consists of domains and godly powers. The Worm Lord used cultists he gave fell rituals to grab a portfolio of decay. He succeeded on one material plane, then insinuated it's self in other parathions in dawning worlds, usually by betraying Rovagug and adding betrayal to his portfolio. I have this head cannon that he joined the autumn council of the nature gods. He is pinned to the wormscape where is the only place he can be truly killed. Even then you have to destroy every worm and bone of which he is composed.
I think brain welks are false gods because they use magical tech and class levels to achieve godlike powers.
I'm trying to fit the mystic/occult viewpoint to the Pathfinder ruleset. You can run the game your own way when you GM of course. A god of time can time stop as long as it wants and can move opponents so they zap each other when time resumes.
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I'd offer them a new alternate capstone every level beyond 20, instead of new class abilities (they still progress at the steady stuff). Choosing one seems to be a meaningful decision, even at that character level. This will lose steam after a few levels, though, after the more interesting capstones are taken.
Personally, I'd rather worry how to challenge them before the final fight. There are not so many CR 21+ creatures in the books, and they are usually supposed to be unique. Improving CR 20- creatures comes at the risk of the players' question "Can't we fight something epic?". And building level 21+ NPCs can be quite exhausting, unless you excel in efficient preparation (library of NPCs, building blocks, reskinning, skipping unnecessary details etc.).
Also be careful with the duration of your campaign. Every month comes at the risk of losing a player, so playing year after year might result in a campaign cancelled before the end. If you want to go beyond 20, consider leveling quickly - unless your players are diehards with unwavering motivation, solid health and neverchanging private situation.
I think @SheepishEidolion is spot on. Running much a campaign after 20th level is going to be increasingly difficult and time consuming. More than likely the campaign will start to spiral down fairly soon after they reach 20th level. By the time it reaches 25th level the game is likely to become a drag instead of something to look forward to.