Most Annoying Thing About Magic Items


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


As I'm still running 1st Ed (this is my last PF1E campaign, but it's still enormous fun) and trying to do it as much by the book as possible, I have just come to realize a property that may be what ultimately annoys me more than any other thing about 3.x/PF1 magic items.

Our party rogue is, with significant reluctance, finally going to ditch his cloak of elvenkind - a marvelous item, perfect for the character's atmosphere, an item taken from a body with story significance early in the campaign - because having failed yet another Fortitude save (and in this case being turned to stone), the player has realized this character can no longer afford not to have an item that grants him multiple points of resistance bonus to saving throws, and that means a cloak of resistance. Now, even though clearly that cloak of elvenkind was no longer serving much of a purpose - the maxed-out Stealth of this character is such that the cloak hasn't made the difference in a skill roll in several levels - this was great character-building.

I volunteered to look through the Ultimate Equipment book for alternatives... and what I found is not just irritating but, in context, is now pissing me off, quite apart from the lack of any alternative to this specific item.

Why? Because twenty or twenty-five different items give resistance bonuses to saving throws as one power among several - but with the exception of the cloak of resistance, and a few items that cost several times as much (e.g. the 75000 gp resplendent robe of the thespian), every other item that gives resistance bonuses gives them only for one specific sort of save - and further, gives this as one of several different powers that combine to make the item far more expensive than the much more useful cloak of resistance - such that these special-purpose bonuses (typically to poison, to fear, to disease, to mind-affecting effects, or occasionally another specific sort of saving throw) will wind up benefitting virtually no one, since by the time they could find or afford such an item, they'd already have a fairly buffed-up cloak of resistance since the item is among the most useful items for the price that anyone could obtain - or, more often, make.

Grr. What this ultimately does is remind me that certain items, like that cloak and like the stat-boosting headbands and belts, are simply far too useful for their price, and everything else is overpriced in comparison. And thus we come back round to one of the reasons why this will be my last 3.x/PF1 campaign.

Don't mind me, I'm just venting. Of course I could introduce an alternate item that gives a resistance bonus, to let the rogue keep his cloak. But ... I'm simply sad, because the player is so disappointed by being forced to give up such a satisfying plot-grounded and thematically appropriate magic item.

Liberty's Edge

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Ring of Resistance

No idea why it costs 50% more (not an appropriate location, maybe?).

Or the PC can add the powers of a Cloak of Resistance to the Cloak of Displacement:

CRB wrote:

Adding New Abilities

Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place. The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character’s body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.

Then there is the Unchained book and the Automatic Bonus Progression.

What I dislike the most is almost all of the specific bonuses you mention and almost all of the spell effects give Resistance bonuses, so they can't stack.

Holy Aura (and the similar spells for the other alignments) is an 8th-level spell. It gives a +4 deflection bonus and a +4 resistance bonus (plus SR and a special effect). At level 15+ the PCs and most NPCs will already have items that give a +4 resistance and +4 deflection bonuses. If they have low wealth they will have +3 items.
Unless you have a veritable horde of NPCs with lover levels and less equipment it is a waste of a high-level spell slot.


I'd just go with the 'add additional powers to the magic item' route. Since the cloak he possesses has some sentimental or story value, I'd just add the resistance bonus to it, at 150% the cost of a cloak of resistance. Half price if a party member can craft.


lol, you are looking at it in reverse. The Cloak of Resistance is the standard item and the others have discounts. Why? Ummm creative license? lol... discounts are tied to theme, so the roleplay effect can cover some discount or the unwitting fumbling of costing the item.
Cloak of Elvenkind [shldrs] $2500 {+5 comp Stlth}.
Cloak of Resistance [shldrs] +3 $9000 {+3 rst to saves}.

So a right way to handle this is when your PC goes into a magic shop the owner should try to sell him some standard stuff. Then he can offer to custom upgrade the elvish cloak (but that leaves him with his stock on hand). Usually the store guy is just an NPC with Prof(merchant) rather than the actual crafter. (Clearly there are other scenes in other settings)

As suggested, you'll use the additional powers route on the Magic Item Crafting Table. I'll tell you that the +3 rst will exceed the cloaks original value (+5 comp stealth) so you'll get the standard Resistance prices then multiply the comp bonus cost by 1.5 (as it will be the cheaper effect). 9000 +1.5*2500 = $12750. So upgrade Price= 12750-2500= $10250, {10250/(1000/d) -->} 11 days.
If your rogue didn't steal anything and has a Cha 13+ then I'd throw in a complimentary Potion of Disguise Other:I2@3{human aasimar angelkin} worth $150. Makes a great instant disguise and being Good they're clearly not a thief.

Alternatively, I do like the Cape of the Mountebank. Adding Dim Door 1/day is a nice effect.

then run off and read
Items that can save you thread
Best Weapon summary
in general as the game goes up in level things get more "dramatic". D&D has long had the best scalability so you can play the character awhile as they go up to 17-20th. It gets a bit crazy as that divergence/power gap widens from average NPCs.

A common & necessary thing is that players(PCs) need to struggle to overcome dramatic obstacles/challenges so they feel they've done something and overcome those story challenges. Otherwise you're just dawdling away the time babysitting.


this is one of the reasons why the Automatic bonus progression rule was introduced

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automati c-bonus-progression/


TxSam88 wrote:
this is one of the reasons why the Automatic bonus progression rule was introduced

I have to say I think this is where the 'generic simplification of things' works against several elements in the game unless you want a really simple game.


Diego Rossi wrote:


What I dislike the most is almost all of the specific bonuses you mention and almost all of the spell effects give Resistance bonuses, so they can't stack.

Same.

There's an even more general problem that if we stick to the wealth-by-level item generation rules, particularly with the extremely careful balancing done for the Ultimate Equipment guide, most magic items are useless by the time they're discovered, because PCs can do better magic on their own. I think I have almost never dropped a "allows the possessor to cast X once per day" item that the PCs had a reason to keep, because by the time such an item is possible in WBL drops, the spell is at least 1-2 levels below what the PCs can already cast, and they're certainly not going to use an item slot for a utility spell, not when this could be cashed in to get them closer to their +4 or +6 stat boost item.


I appreciate the responses! The campaign is in Ptolus, and I'm certainly not changing groundrules for magic item creation/behavior with 13th level PCs, so the Unchained stuff is a nonstarter (while a fascinating idea for my next campaign, whatever other base system I might use) - but as the party has a wizard crafter, they might well be willing to just add the resistance to the existing cloak at +50%.


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i had a GM who house-ruled that resistance bonus and enhancement bonus to abilities (like a belt that increase str etc) from different magic items stack, up to the worth of the more expensive item compared to the generic item for said bonus.

so two items that add resistance bonus to saves, one that gives +2 and one that gives +1 would grant a +3 to saves if the more expensive one was at least worth 9.000 gp (the cost of a cloak of resistance +3). if the items would give a total of +4 but the cost was between 9k and under 16k it would give only +3 etc.

Liberty's Edge

zza ni wrote:

i had a GM who house-ruled that resistance bonus and enhancement bonus to abilities (like a belt that increase str etc) from different magic items stack, up to the worth of the more expensive item compared to the generic item for said bonus.

so two items that add resistance bonus to saves, one that gives +2 and one that gives +1 would grant a +3 to saves if the more expensive one was at least worth 9.000 gp (the cost of a cloak of resistance +3). if the items would give a total of +4 but the cost was between 9k and under 16k it would give only +3 etc.

Interesting, but labor intensive.

eyelessgame wrote:


There's an even more general problem that if we stick to the wealth-by-level item generation rules, particularly with the extremely careful balancing done for the Ultimate Equipment guide, most magic items are useless by the time they're discovered, because PCs can do better magic on their own. I think I have almost never dropped a "allows the possessor to cast X once per day" item that the PCs had a reason to keep, because by the time such an item is possible in WBL drops, the spell is at least 1-2 levels below what the PCs can already cast, and they're certainly not going to use an item slot for a utility spell, not when this could be cashed in to get them closer to their +4 or +6 stat boost item.

In my current campaign, I am using a lot of house rules and I don't care about WBL, but only about actual character power.

The Rod of Lordly Might has always been one of my preferred items, as it is a magic Swiss Knife, but it costs like a +6 weapon and, at best, it is used as a +4 battleaxe. Most of the other powers are fun but hardly useful.
So, in my game world, it is the creation of an (a bit deranged) Eldritch Knith with Ranger levels that wanted a magical Swiss Knife, cost be damned.

The PCs did find it?
Well, the magic mart buyer guy will pay it as a +4 Battleaxe, the other stuff is useless fluff. And that if he wants to buy it.
The average magic mart will buy what sells, so all those rings of resistance or deflection +1, but not the 70K item that probably will take 10 years to sell. If you want to sell that you go to an Auction House and with for the bi-annual big auction of magic items.
If they are lucky they can even get more than the book value of the item.

Naturally, the flow of time in my campaign is very different from that of a typical AP. Yesterday the characters passed the 1,000th day milestone.

Dark Archive

eyelessgame wrote:

Same.

There's an even more general problem that if we stick to the wealth-by-level item generation rules, particularly with the extremely careful balancing done for the Ultimate Equipment guide, most magic items are useless by the time they're discovered, because PCs can do better magic on their own. I think I have almost never dropped a "allows the possessor to cast X once per day" item that the PCs had a reason to keep, because by the time such an item is possible in WBL drops, the spell is at least 1-2 levels below what the PCs can already cast, and they're certainly not going to use an item slot for a utility spell, not when this could be cashed in to get them closer to their +4 or +6 stat boost item.

The issue I have with items that cast spells X/day is that the spells almost invariably have a crappy CL compared to one cast by a PC at that level, and in the case of a spell that can be resisted, no attribute bonus to their save DC, so you end up with some item that you get at 9th level, that has a spell with a save DC of 13, which is just a terrible joke, at that level.

Every now and then you'll find a mechanical option that allows the caster to use his full caster level with a wand or scroll, or even to apply his attribute modifier to the save DC (but rarely, if ever, both at the same time...), but that's just 'you have a special class option to make a sub-optimal choice, not quite as sub-optimal, while *other* people have options that actually *add* to their effectiveness...'

And such an ability is still almost never going to benefit those random items that have some spell X / day (at CL 3, with a casting stat of 10) in addition to their 'core' function.


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Awhile ago I made it so that the items that "everyone needs" can get a second enchantment / can be put onto another item that takes up the same slot without adding on 50% of the new enchantment. (Or that you could essentially wear one of the main items and another item in the same slot without one of them being cancelled out and we would just pretend that the two items got combined... no one worried about the specifics 'cause they liked the idea of being able to use a cloak of elvenkind while still having a cloak of resistance)

Cloak of Resistance + any other cloak = Cost of both items
Headband of [Mental Stat(s)] + any other headband = Cost of both items
Belts of [Physical Stat(s)] + any other belt = ...you get the point
Ring of Protection + any other ring
Amulet of Natural Armor + any other amulet

That way all of the other cloaks, belts, amulets, etc that the group found and would be useful were actually used instead of "sell it 'cause my cloak of resistance is too important"


My group would allow for combining the items together or changing the slot. One GM even allowed me to give my boar companion rings by having them be legbands instead. Could still only use two of them, but it made things so much easier once the boar was no longer the only one that didn't have a Ring of Sustenance.


Azothath wrote:
lol, you are looking at it in reverse. The Cloak of Resistance is the standard item and the others have discounts. Why? Ummm creative license? lol... discounts are tied to theme, so the roleplay effect can cover some discount or the unwitting fumbling of costing the item.

You are correct, the cloak of resistance would set the base price (the reason being that it's the most expensive item). In this specific example, I went the other direction because the PC already has the cloak of elvenkind and it has sentimental and story value, so I really meant that he'd be adding the resistance to that cloak and not just starting from scratch with a cloak with both resistance and elvenkind.


Warped Savant wrote:

Awhile ago I made it so that the items that "everyone needs" can get a second enchantment / can be put onto another item that takes up the same slot without adding on 50% of the new enchantment. (Or that you could essentially wear one of the main items and another item in the same slot without one of them being cancelled out and we would just pretend that the two items got combined... no one worried about the specifics 'cause they liked the idea of being able to use a cloak of elvenkind while still having a cloak of resistance)

Cloak of Resistance + any other cloak = Cost of both items
Headband of [Mental Stat(s)] + any other headband = Cost of both items
Belts of [Physical Stat(s)] + any other belt = ...you get the point
Ring of Protection + any other ring
Amulet of Natural Armor + any other amulet

That way all of the other cloaks, belts, amulets, etc that the group found and would be useful were actually used instead of "sell it 'cause my cloak of resistance is too important"

That reminds me of the old Magic Item Compendium rules from 3.5 for stacking common effects.

Only things you're missing compared to that are energy resistance and making a body slot item have an armor bonus like the Robe of the Archmagi.


Pizza Lord wrote:
Azothath wrote:
lol, you are looking at it in reverse. The Cloak of Resistance is the standard item and the others have discounts. Why? Ummm creative license? lol... discounts are tied to theme, so the roleplay effect can cover some discount or the unwitting fumbling of costing the item.
You are correct, the cloak of resistance would set the base price (the reason being that it's the most expensive item). In this specific example, I went the other direction because the PC already has the cloak of elvenkind and it has sentimental and story value, so I really meant that he'd be adding the resistance to that cloak and not just starting from scratch with a cloak with both resistance and elvenkind.

that's why I used the term upgrade in the post, "... Then he can offer to custom upgrade the elvish cloak ...". It doesn't matter what's done first other than recouping the original price from the final price. With both items being RAW [shoulders] items you don't have to worry about 'slot affinity'.

It would be the same for a Headband of Vast Intellect +2 INT having a custom upgrade with +2 CHA turning into a Headband of Mental Prowess. Same price as +2 CHA getting a +2 INT added. +4 then +2 is possible, just not specifically printed as a RAW example thus it gets the "custom" term added.


That correct formula makes it very reasonable. A cloak of elvenkind resistance +4 is only 625 gp more expensive to upgrade to than a cloak of resistance +4 is to create.

Nice. Thank you!

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