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My hopes are for something like a new Archetype 'slot' for Mythic Archetypes, with options like turning into an Angel or (hopefully!) a Protean alongside more 1e-style "you're exceptional at what you do" stuff.
I assume it will be very Free Archetype-esque in the sense that you will unlock your mythic power through [redacted] and get mythic feats. It's likely that the idea of "mythic ranks" will disappear and you'll be just mythic and that's it.
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I could see it being like the school leveling in Strength of Thousands. I completely different leveling track that carries its own benefits. I kinda wonder if that system was a test run/experiment.
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I just want to be able to playtest the mythic rules before we print them.
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Thanks, I hate it.
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Thanks, I hate it.why? it's a big gap in the kind of stories & campaigns you can tell that's finally bieng filled
Because 1E mythic rules were abysmally bad and led to a ton of GM burnout during the Wrath of the Righteous AP, mine included. So, my confidence that this time around the devs will be able to do them right (if that is even possible with how tightly 2E is balanced) is pretty damn low at this point at this moment. The lack of a playtest for those new rules does not help with that feeling at all.
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I'm excited. I've been wanting mythic rules for a while, and I think they'll work very well in the sturdier 2e system.
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Because 1E mythic rules were abysmally bad and led to a ton of GM burnout during the Wrath of the Righteous AP, mine included. So, my confidence that this time around the devs will be able to do them right (if that is even possible with how tightly 2E is balanced) is pretty damn low at this point at this moment. The lack of a playtest for those new rules does not help with that feeling at all.Thanks, I hate it.why? it's a big gap in the kind of stories & campaigns you can tell that's finally bieng filled
I wouldn't write off the design of the current team because the 1E's team at the time did the previous mythic rules in a way that was dissatisfying. Especially since, according to publishing dates, said book (Mythic Adventures) is 10 years old.
The designers know how important the math is to the game, to the point where many will decry about options not being stronger. I'm sure, however the rules come about, it'll be a lot more reliable, and a heck of a lot more flavorful.
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My hopes are for something like a new Archetype 'slot' for Mythic Archetypes, with options like turning into an Angel or (hopefully!) a Protean alongside more 1e-style "you're exceptional at what you do" stuff.Yeah I really want to see something more like the Owlcat version where you can become a demon vs the more generic mythic "archmage" and "trickster" from PF 1e.
That is a thing I have been hoping for for awhile now, a PF2e equivalent to Wrath of the Righteous, and I was assuming it would work off of Archetypes as well, so making a special archetype like field for it fits my thoughts, and I would love to become Angel, Demon, Swarm, Dragon, Aeon, etc. kind of thing.
Though a playtest, maybe in a few months, would be helpful.
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I wouldn't write off the design of the current team because the 1E's team at the time did the previous mythic rules in a way that was dissatisfying. Especially since, according to publishing dates, said book (Mythic Adventures) is 10 years old.
The designers know how important the math is to the game, to the point where many will decry about options not being stronger. I'm sure, however the rules come about, it'll be a lot more reliable, and a heck of a lot more flavorful.
I'll just quote Garak for that: "I always hope for the best. Experience, unfortunately, has taught me to expect the worst". So, in this particular case I prefer to be cautiously pessimistic.
I'm gonna go with "Eh." for now.
Like magnuskn (kinda), every time I've seen mythic rules in 1e it ended with the gm going "This was a mistake." and, personally, I never really liked the flavor of mythic anyway. However, there is a lot that was done in 2e that I didn't like in 1e but that I now do (Skills, Multiclass, and scaling being some of them) so I don't doubt they are able to make something compelling or at least usable without making your GM cry.
As for implementation, I'd wager it's probably going to be either a new "Free-archetype", or a select number of bonus feats depending on your rank like you're leveling another class on the side.
Depending on how it's implemented, I can see it used for APs like gatewalkers where you got bonus feats on the side tied to specific abilities, or to sort of standardize the character progressions in stories like Tyrant's grasp. Not a bad tool to have in that case.
meh
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Skeptical. A level 5 character with mythic abilities should be very obviously stronger than a level 5 character without them, which is a design principle that runs completely counter to how PF2 is supposed to function. It's not impossible that the rules are good and useful but I certainly am not betting on it.
Because 1E mythic rules were abysmally bad and led to a ton of GM burnout during the Wrath of the Righteous AP, mine included. So, my confidence that this time around the devs will be able to do them right (if that is even possible with how tightly 2E is balanced) is pretty damn low at this point at this moment. The lack of a playtest for those new rules does not help with that feeling at all.Thanks, I hate it.why? it's a big gap in the kind of stories & campaigns you can tell that's finally bieng filled
Think that is for very special campaigns. If these rules are printed in its own manual, you could simply bypass it if are not going to use.
Completely uninterested in Mythic play so any release with such content would likely be an autoreject..
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I do hope 2e mythic isn't just Wrath of the Righteous crpg "you are turning into non mortal creature" mythic because I don't feel like that one fully reflects flavor of "I'm badass who can run through walls kool aid man style"
But yeah if 2e mythic is additional level up you can put on top of lower level characters and at high level allows for facing 26-30 enemies, I assume it essentially boosts your character's level by one and there aren't "mythic enemies" per say, kinda like how some mythic monsters have been adapted to 2e already(while some where in playtest but haven't appeared in release version yet like Devastator)
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AFAICT PF1 options that made it to PF2 without playtest ended up disappointing the people who were hyped about them.
Given the main weakness of PF1 Mythic was unchecked power level, I fear we will end up with Mythic rules that will not deliver the kind of extraordinary abilities people wish for. And that PF2 Mythic ends up collecting dust next to PF1 Words of power.
Now, this pessimistic view of mine comes mostly from the feeling that we will not get a playtest for PF2 Mythic rules.
If we actually get a playtest, everything wonderful becomes possible IMO.
I expect cool archetypes for general divine themes....maybe an archetype for each of the core 20. I'm excited to learn more
I'm excited and very curious about how they will do it.
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My guess for mythic in PF2 is that it will add about as much "power" to a class as free archtype does. The big difference will be that it will break through some of the narrative level restriction walls that define base game assumptions.
So your characters are going to be able to fly, teleport, exist without breathing, or walk into a volcano at much, much lower levels. Looking at both the animist and the Exemplar, your ability to just not die is going to get ratcheted up as well, but it is not going to help you slay an appropriately leveled dragon solo boss faster. I think that will be the general kind of power boosting you get from Mythic. But there is also room for there to be something like mythic surges added to the game as well, but that could even just be things like removing hero point or focus point caps and giving you more of those resources. The secret sauce of PF2 has been "give players more ways of solving problems, not more powerful ways of solving problems" and I think the developers are aware of how well that formula has worked for them.
So mythic, in my guess, is going to be about changing the types of stories we can tell in ways that blow up the fantasy to mythic levels, without really having to touch the underlying math. Characters who can be shapeshifted all day, fly to outer space, fight a dragon inside an active volcano, travel between the planes, and spring back from death over and over again all feel like they would fit in mythic, but not really require MOAR NUMBERS!!!!
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My guess for mythic in PF2 is that it will add about as much "power" to a class as free archtype does. The big difference will be that it will break through some of the narrative level restriction walls that define base game assumptions.
So your characters are going to be able to fly, teleport, exist without breathing, or walk into a volcano at much, much lower levels. Looking at both the animist and the Exemplar, your ability to just not die is going to get ratcheted up as well, but it is not going to help you slay an appropriately leveled dragon solo boss faster. I think that will be the general kind of power boosting you get from Mythic. But there is also room for there to be something like mythic surges added to the game as well, but that could even just be things like removing hero point or focus point caps and giving you more of those resources. The secret sauce of PF2 has been "give players more ways of solving problems, not more powerful ways of solving problems" and I think the developers are aware of how well that formula has worked for them.
So mythic, in my guess, is going to be about changing the types of stories we can tell in ways that blow up the fantasy to mythic levels, without really having to touch the underlying math. Characters who can be shapeshifted all day, fly to outer space, fight a dragon inside an active volcano, travel between the planes, and spring back from death over and over again all feel like they would fit in mythic, but not really require MOAR NUMBERS!!!!
I would like things like this, full of awesome flavor.
But be assured that anything that can be weaponized to achieve MOAR POWER will be.
I feel the path between boringly mundane and cool but balance-breaking is extremely narrow. I hope Paizo can find it.
My guess for mythic in PF2 is that it will add about as much "power" to a class as free archtype does. The big difference will be that it will break through some of the narrative level restriction walls that define base game assumptions.
So your characters are going to be able to fly, teleport, exist without breathing, or walk into a volcano at much, much lower levels. Looking at both the animist and the Exemplar, your ability to just not die is going to get ratcheted up as well, but it is not going to help you slay an appropriately leveled dragon solo boss faster. I think that will be the general kind of power boosting you get from Mythic. But there is also room for there to be something like mythic surges added to the game as well, but that could even just be things like removing hero point or focus point caps and giving you more of those resources. The secret sauce of PF2 has been "give players more ways of solving problems, not more powerful ways of solving problems" and I think the developers are aware of how well that formula has worked for them.
So mythic, in my guess, is going to be about changing the types of stories we can tell in ways that blow up the fantasy to mythic levels, without really having to touch the underlying math. Characters who can be shapeshifted all day, fly to outer space, fight a dragon inside an active volcano, travel between the planes, and spring back from death over and over again all feel like they would fit in mythic, but not really require MOAR NUMBERS!!!!
I'm not sure I agree with that. To me, a Mythic character should absolutely be stronger than a non-mythic one. It's the system you use when you want your campaign to go for higher targets and scopes. I'm comparing it to the Wrath of the Righteous AP. Normally, entities like Deskari and Baphomet would untouchable, more fit to be worshipped than encountered. With Mythic, they're beatable bosses. That's the reach you should be able to grasp at max level with Mythic.
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In PF2 power is a function of level. This is the single corner stone upon which the whole game rests. Breaking that is losing everything that makes the game successful.
Is this a well balanced encounter?
If I as GM can't figure that out just by looking at the levels of creatures than I have more work to do and the odds of me really unbalancing things gets very bad.
If your dreams of mythic are to go to power levels over level 20 PCs, then it seems like that dream is not going to be fulfilled by the War of the Immortals book. This is what we have directly been told.
I could be wrong about a number of my guesses about what mythic will look like, but I would be shocked and incredibly disappointed to see a system of just flat boosting PCs numbers to be functionally higher level than they actually are. Especially because just boosting numbers is about the easiest thing in the world just to homebrew for yourself as a GM if you want your PCs to fight some enemy that they just need higher numbers to have a chance of fighting.
You can even do this without "rule breaking" by having a god cast highest level heroism and false life on each PC before the battle.
I look forward to mythic. I hope they red Wrath of the Righteous so I can play it. I thought that was a great AP. The only reason I could not finish it is because the mythic rules were too insane.
Given the PF2 balance point, should be a lot easier to do Mythic rules and still keep the game playable.
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In PF2 power is a function of level. This is the single corner stone upon which the whole game rests. Breaking that is losing everything that makes the game successful.
Is this a well balanced encounter?
If I as GM can't figure that out just by looking at the levels of creatures than I have more work to do and the odds of me really unbalancing things gets very bad.
If your dreams of mythic are to go to power levels over level 20 PCs, then it seems like that dream is not going to be fulfilled by the War of the Immortals book. This is what we have directly been told.
I could be wrong about a number of my guesses about what mythic will look like, but I would be shocked and incredibly disappointed to see a system of just flat boosting PCs numbers to be functionally higher level than they actually are. Especially because just boosting numbers is about the easiest thing in the world just to homebrew for yourself as a GM if you want your PCs to fight some enemy that they just need higher numbers to have a chance of fighting.
You can even do this without "rule breaking" by having a god cast highest level heroism and false life on each PC before the battle.
It's unlikely whatever they're cooking for Mythic will be just a flat increase of numbers, but to say it's not about power I feel is off. Mythic adventures are the ones that allow you to tackle that higher tier of play, of which 2e is currently restricted to at most level 25, with 26-30 not yet existing. That was its function I understand back in 1e, and if it isn't the same here there would be need of a different system to address it. And if there's gonna something like that, why call whatever we're getting now Mythic at all?
I understand your concerns about balance and ease of figuring out encounters on the GM side, but Mythic would be an optional rule to insert in one's home campaigns and maybe one AP. After all, Wrath was the only Mythic AP of 1e. We've had things too like Deviant Abilities, which aren't necessarily stronger, but they've only appeared once in official APs as well. And fighting those stronger enemies, the likes of the Infernal Dukes and Protean Lords, isn't just a matter of numbers to simply reskin with a higher level Heroism.
1e didn't have a system of going over 20 at all, it was Mythic that was used for these adventures. It was rather unbalanced, yes, but it's again very much an optional rule for niche campaigns. If it can't enable said campaigns, what's the point of having it?
Also, I have a feeling that the book publishing Mythic will also have rules on how to adjust encounters for Mythic PCs. I doubt even if it's just the increases you're envisioning in a post above, current encounters still wouldn't be the same without taking it into account.
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we absolutely should be able to fight cr 26-30 enemies. that's part of what mythic is those creatures have stats & only mythic could fight them . if 2e mythic can't do that a large part of the appeal of mythic is lost . I don't know how they'll do this on either the pc or monster side but it's an absolute core part of the mythic experience !
Just magically give the Mythic PCs the ability to make the opponent weaker (losing levels). And then you just use the usual PF2 rules.
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A bit more seriously, we kind of know what the goal would be for max level Mythic : kill Treerazer, the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Tar-Baphon ...
(Come to think of it, were I TB, I would start getting worried about PCs getting PF2 Mythic rules)
But what do we imagine for low-level Mythic PCs' adventures ?
Treerazer doesn’t feel out of bounds for a regular level 20 party as is. The request was to be able solo fight a Treerazer. To me, that is a bad goal for PF2 mythic. This is a cooperative RPG. Making one player play like 4 means making 4 play like 16. The dials to keep things balanced are going to be all over the place. Instead of individual power, it needs to stay focused on what the team can do, because that is what killed mythic in PF1.
The closest thing I could imagine to the 4 Treerazers necessary to give such a party an interesting boss fight would be 4 treerazers, riding horses, with broad mythic-like narrative changing powers over domains like war, famine, pestilence and death.
And the way you build a good adventure to capstone with such a fight is having artifacts, special archetype feats that aren’t more powerful, but powerfully targeted to battle ahead, and allies providing boons to make the fight feel like there is a chance the players can win it/balance the scales.
My guess for mythic in PF2 is that it will add about as much "power" to a class as free archtype does. The big difference will be that it will break through some of the narrative level restriction walls that define base game assumptions.
So your characters are going to be able to fly, teleport, exist without breathing, or walk into a volcano at much, much lower levels. Looking at both the animist and the Exemplar, your ability to just not die is going to get ratcheted up as well, but it is not going to help you slay an appropriately leveled dragon solo boss faster. I think that will be the general kind of power boosting you get from Mythic. But there is also room for there to be something like mythic surges added to the game as well, but that could even just be things like removing hero point or focus point caps and giving you more of those resources. The secret sauce of PF2 has been "give players more ways of solving problems, not more powerful ways of solving problems" and I think the developers are aware of how well that formula has worked for them.
So mythic, in my guess, is going to be about changing the types of stories we can tell in ways that blow up the fantasy to mythic levels, without really having to touch the underlying math. Characters who can be shapeshifted all day, fly to outer space, fight a dragon inside an active volcano, travel between the planes, and spring back from death over and over again all feel like they would fit in mythic, but not really require MOAR NUMBERS!!!!
I had a similar thought, particularly since this seems to be how Starfinder 2e is compatible with PF2. Mythic might let level past 20 as well, but I don't think a level 15 mythic character needs higher numbers than a regular level 15 character.
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I'm wondering if mythic could be similar to an expansion or variant of the Deviant Abilities with less drawbacks. Possibly drawing on relic seeds/gifts for various "paths" and set relic "combos" to simulate becoming more "powerful" as a character gains additional mythic "tiers" (using the PF1 mythic terminology).
As far as the effect of increasing "power" goes, I could see it if Paizo factors it in to balance considerations like they did with mechs in Starfinder 1e. Actually, I could even see (SF2) mechs and (PF2) mythic as parallel systems (given the stated goal of SF2 compatibility with PF2).
Treerazer doesn’t feel out of bounds for a regular level 20 party as is. The request was to be able solo fight a Treerazer. To me, that is a bad goal for PF2 mythic. This is a cooperative RPG. Making one player play like 4 means making 4 play like 16. The dials to keep things balanced are going to be all over the place. Instead of individual power, it needs to stay focused on what the team can do, because that is what killed mythic in PF1.
The closest thing I could imagine to the 4 Treerazers necessary to give such a party an interesting boss fight would be 4 treerazers, riding horses, with broad mythic-like narrative changing powers over domains like war, famine, pestilence and death.
And the way you build a good adventure to capstone with such a fight is having artifacts, special archetype feats that aren’t more powerful, but powerfully targeted to battle ahead, and allies providing boons to make the fight feel like there is a chance the players can win it/balance the scales.
Treerazer is indeed within the scope of a regular level 20 party, as he's just a Nascent Demon Lord rather than any of the full ones. And I don't think soloing bosses is the need behind Mythic, it's actually being able to fight the higher-ups.
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A bit more seriously, we kind of know what the goal would be for max level Mythic : kill Treerazer, the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, Tar-Baphon ...
(Come to think of it, were I TB, I would start getting worried about PCs getting PF2 Mythic rules)
But what do we imagine for low-level Mythic PCs' adventures ?
Iblydos is the domain of the low-level Mythic! Stealing legendary cattle, hunting the canniest lion (or chimera!) in the land, sailing out to slay a sea monster, and wrapping up your career at level 10 to be the patron of a local polis.
Mostly throwing out wild ideas here but imagine if instead of 3-action economy, mythic characters get 4-action economy by default instead. :D
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Maybe it's just the culture of gaming that I'm coming from, but do we need 'official' stat sheets for the gods and other divine/profane beings? Like, I understand if your homegame wants to slaughter the Four Horsemen and take their place or whatever, but what's stopping you from building them? We have instructions for building stuff like that, and we can throw out some of the rules about building creatures to represent their beyond mortal ken. There are things that just should not have stat sheets. If a character has a stat sheet it can be killed, if it doesn't then it can't (unless the GM wants it to for whatever reason).
I guess I'm having a hard time seeing how Mythic benefits characters more than standard leveling and magic items? If my character is level 20, with the appropriate skill increases I can leap so high it doesn't matter if I can fly, because I can control my landing so I don't take damage. With the right magic items I can survive in the hard vacuum of space, or in the depths of a volcano. I don't need Mythic to do that, we can already do that. It's been explicitly stated that the Mythic rules aren't going to be flat level increases, so we're not going to start levelling to 25, 30, or whatever. I just can't see what Mythic adds that isn't already in the game.
Maybe I'm short-sighted and not able to see trees for the forest, I am willing to admit. Mythic was my least favorite thing in PF1 and kinda meh in WotR CRPG. I just don't see any way for this to 'WOW!' me.
I am so excited for what the mythic rules are going to be!
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As long as they don't mess up their own hard made well working system of "power ceiling per Level" balance system, I'm good with any mythic system.