Well, Vigilante is an archetype in PF2e already so that IMO would be another score in the "Demigod shouldn't be a class but rather an ancestry / background / archetype" board.
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Nothing sounds sillier than ”1st-level demigod”.
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Nothing sounds sillier than ”1st-level demigod”.
It's about as silly as "first level warlord" or "first level commander" which are things we've seen people clamoring for. Probably even less silly, since if you have divine parentage then you had it as a helpless baby too so infant-Achilles was still a demigod when he got dipped in the Styx.
In Pathfinder the word "demigod" was always related to CR 20+ creatures, while a 1st-level "warlord" is way more plausible as you probably have never went to war yourself but were trained into being the perfect strategist, pretty much like most classes in that you were "taught" your class and you put that knowledge in practice during the campaign itself.
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Nothing sounds sillier than ”1st-level demigod”.
One of the Labours of Hercules was him cleaning stables, and several of the others were hunts of large-but-mundane animals. It’s really not that crazy to imagine.
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The concept is demigod, in the classic hybrid of mortal and god meaning. The name of the class might be Hero-god or Avatar or something else. My favorite one is Ascendant.
And for those who see this better as an archetype, rejoice, for that is what the MC archetype would be for.
So, a class based on developing your link to divinity (as opposed to mortality / ordinary everyday life), but not like the Oracle does.
Sidenote BTW that Hercules was given at the time as an inspiration for what a PF1 Oracle of Strength could be ;-)
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Not sure if this has been brought up, but Michael Sayre dropped one last hint a few days ago saying that neither class has been featured in Starfinder either.
Do with this as you may.
*continues to lurk*
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What people aren't understanding is that if Demigod is the equivalent of mythic levels then it wouldn't be a concept never seen in Golarion as mythic levels already existed in PF1e and there's a ton of characters with them (even characters that used to have them in PF1e are still refered as having them in PF2e afaik).
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What people aren't understanding is that if Demigod is the equivalent of mythic levels then it wouldn't be a concept never seen in Golarion as mythic levels already existed in PF1e and there's a ton of characters with them (even characters that used to have them in PF1e are still refered as having them in PF2e afaik).
The concept was never seen in a class though. It used completely different mechanics.
This is the way I read the blog's wording : concept of a PF1 class.
Heck, we could eliminate Animist even more strongly due to its strong correlation with Shaman which IS a PF1 class.
But many people still feel it fits.
TBT if we take concept more broadly than concept of a class, I do not see anything that has not already been used as a concept in the setting.
What people aren't understanding is that if Demigod is the equivalent of mythic levels then it wouldn't be a concept never seen in Golarion as mythic levels already existed in PF1e and there's a ton of characters with them (even characters that used to have them in PF1e are still refered as having them in PF2e afaik).The concept was never seen in a class though. It used completely different mechanics.
This is the way I read the blog's wording : concept of a PF1 class.
Heck, we could eliminate Animist even more strongly due to its strong correlation with Shaman which IS a PF1 class.
But many people still feel it fits.
TBT if we take concept more broadly than concept of a class, I do not see anything that has not already been used as a concept in the setting.
Perhaps one of them isn’t the “Animist”. But if one is I can definitely see it cleaving well away from whatever the hell the Shaman was. The design space is huge outside “spirit-stuff”.
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I also feel like "level 1 demigod" is only weird if you use that term in universe. heck a level 1 barbarian sounds just as weird, what do levels mean to a barbarian. Sure some classes you might make some in-universe explanation for, level 1 wizard could represent your rank in academia, or something. But levels feel like an abstraction for the sake of mechanics, and i've never been to big on using class terms in universe(at least not as defined roles and such, you can be a fighter without being a "Fighter")
I get the weirdness might be the idea of level 1 sounds weak and demigod gives an idea of great power, but like others have said demigods can also have humble starts and need to train.
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I'm surprised so many people are attaching themselves to this idea. Like, what does a demigod even mean? What do they do? I know some classes have somewhat misleading names but even so like-
I have a level 4 party consisting of a fighter, bard, ranger, and demigod. What does the demigod do here? How do they fit into the game outside giving off some weird protagonisty red flags? ... and why a human demigod and not a demigod wizard or barbarian or whatever?
I'm just having trouble understanding how this really makes sense in the context of the rest of the game as presented here.
... I could however see Paizo definitely doing something in a similar space. Like a divinely touched warrior that fits a lot of the same thematic tropes that might vaguely look like an offensive champion or divine magus or holy inventor, but that would be a lot more specific than 'demigod'
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I'm surprised so many people are attaching themselves to this idea.
Same.
As a generic term, 'demigod' equates approximately to 'hero' or 'protagonist' - which all PCs are.
For a Golarion lore / PF1 meaning, 'demigod' equates to mythic. Which wouldn't be one lonely class.
I think people are so in love with the concept because Paizo themselves have been selling this a a divine war-themed book, so the first thing that comes to mind is you playing as a divine entity even when if you think about it for more than a minute it really wouldn't make sense to create such a "I'm the protagonist, the class" concept for a class.
With that said, since neither of the iconics is from Numeria apparently and with the concept of Demigod being kinda on the nose for a class I really don't know what Paizo could pull up to justify having a class having the Rare trait honestly. Usually stuff that refers to the various regions of Golarion whih aren't on Avistan have the Uncommon trait, so I assume something with the Rare trait has to be from outside the planet, like literally in other planet like Akiton or Castrovel, or from the inner or outer planes though I can't see classes that could be related to the planes as nothing more than clerics or champions with extra steps.
Tank maybe?
Honestly, I'm not opposed to the idea. But I do personally feel the concept should call for a more robust system that's more universally applicable than a the class system. Not to say classes aren't universal, but something more akin to the mythic paths from 1e seems more in-line and variable to the concept of demigods imo. That's my personal preference on how I'd like it done, but I'll take whatever Paizo gives us. They rarely disappoint me with class design, so im sure they couldnc construct a reasonable concept behind the idea.
For me, it's more curious that everyone is only seeing this as a potential martial class than something more customizable. I understand where it's coming from, but there is plenty of room for demigods of other prowess. Magic, skill, etc. That would hold my interest more.
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So I like the idea but I'm not 100% certain it will be the option. Right now its just the one i find the most fun to speculate on, and i think their is some evidence to support it.
What I am thinking of when I see the term, is some sort of martial, potentially constitution based, but i can see it being flexible. I imagine it wold be tanky, and either be non armored or have that to be a viable option in some way. I could see it having all day divine based abilities simillar to a Kinetecist.
I think people are interested in it because it is a bit vague and so it what the class looks like could be varied. So its open to a lot of speculation.
Like a lot of the other popular ideas you kind of get what the class will do which doesnt invite too much speculation.
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The big bulky guy is known as an Ascendant. These are not demigods. What they are, are people who have obtained a fragment of a gods power. They are similar to clerics in that way. Each ascendant uses a fraction of the gods power rather than becoming a god themselves.
They will not have spells.
Gives me Favored Soul vibes, which I'm down for. Fueled mostly by nostalgia.
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Sooo... Oracle again pretty much?
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This a bold shot (one I think is sick and very close to my own theory of the class) or do you have secret sources?
Having thought about it some more, I think the whole “demigod/exalted/ascendant/incarnate” is almost entirely created by one nipple. And James Case’ heritage. It’s a great theory, and quite compelling. But I’m going back to a Commander/warleader. They don’t have to be heavily armored, just….able to…lead.
And looking at the art of the 2nd iconic, I’m now also thinking the Explorer concept could be a thing. People can lose fingers for all sorts of reasons. It doesn’t have to be “animistic”/ritualistic. My brother did however once meet a woman who [i]had[i] cut off one of her fingers so her hand would more resemble “an eagle’s talons”. Or so she said. In a pub.
Now I’m somehow even less hyped than I was before, i just want something interesting. With interesting abilities and interactions with the ruleset.
Third party publishers have done versions of some of these concepts in PF1e: Godlings, Survivors etc…. I would actually like to just see something entirely new.
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With words like archivist and animist rolling around on my tongue I wanted to throw Atavist into the ring, mostly because atavism is a fun word to say and have a cool vibe to it. Especially since it feels like a barbarian-esque concept that draws in primal powers and could be suitable for the nipple.
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The PF1 Shaman had a very particular play experience that I don’t expect to see carried forward at all in a PF2 class dealing with spirits. I think the concept takes up too much vital space in the setting to not be a full class someday, even if they don’t call it ‘Shaman’ - which is why I’m on team Animist.
Don’t expect a pet.
The PF1 Shaman had a very particular play experience that I don’t expect to see carried forward at all in a PF2 class dealing with spirits. I think the concept takes up too much vital space in the setting to not be a full class someday, even if they don’t call it ‘Shaman’ - which is why I’m on team Animist.
Don’t expect a pet.
I 100% agree. I just can’t tell if it is a class that will feel connected to this godwar event or a class that will really fit in well in the aftermath, depending upon how much gets shaken up by the event. I really look forward to it either way.
The PF1 Shaman had a very particular play experience that I don’t expect to see carried forward at all in a PF2 class dealing with spirits. I think the concept takes up too much vital space in the setting to not be a full class someday, even if they don’t call it ‘Shaman’ - which is why I’m on team Animist.
Don’t expect a pet.
Animist being a complete mechanical rework of the Shaman's thematic niche would be in the same vein as Thaumaturge being a complete mechanical rework of the Occultist's thematic niche. No clue if Paizo would consider the Thaumaturge to be a "brand new class" or not.
I feel Animist is unlikely as the class for a simple reason: Shadra from what I can tell is in all likelihood probably the single most popular non-core icount) popular non-core iconic from PF1. As such, I find it unlikely that Paizo would want to graduate them from iconic status and by extension I feel any PF2 class which ends up taking up the narrative space of the PF1 Shaman would have her as the iconic (as whilst the Animist won't be Shaman, from people's descriptions it's not really leaving much narrative space for a Shaman)
Plus, Animist as a class name in general has issues like leading to confusion on "follower of an Animist religion" and "someone who evokes the powers of animist spirits for power". It's not like we call Clerics Monolatrists after all (though even then, monolatry is an obscure enough word where it'd probably be better for a class name then Animist)
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I 100% agree. I just can’t tell if it is a class that will feel connected to this godwar event or a class that will really fit in well in the aftermath, depending upon how much gets shaken up by the event. I really look forward to it either way.The PF1 Shaman had a very particular play experience that I don’t expect to see carried forward at all in a PF2 class dealing with spirits. I think the concept takes up too much vital space in the setting to not be a full class someday, even if they don’t call it ‘Shaman’ - which is why I’m on team Animist.
Don’t expect a pet.
If the pair really is Animist and Hero-God, it’s easy to imagine the former as an alternative practice to following these suddenly-fragile gods, while the latter fits as heirs to broken powers and aspirants to empty thrones. I think both fit a “godwar” pretty well.
You can tell times have changed, because both of these options excite me more than a faux-Inquisitor at this point!
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I think people are so in love with the concept because Paizo themselves have been selling this a a divine war-themed book, so the first thing that comes to mind is you playing as a divine entity even when if you think about it for more than a minute it really wouldn't make sense to create such a "I'm the protagonist, the class" concept for a class.
With that said, since neither of the iconics is from Numeria apparently and with the concept of Demigod being kinda on the nose for a class I really don't know what Paizo could pull up to justify having a class having the Rare trait honestly. Usually stuff that refers to the various regions of Golarion whih aren't on Avistan have the Uncommon trait, so I assume something with the Rare trait has to be from outside the planet, like literally in other planet like Akiton or Castrovel, or from the inner or outer planes though I can't see classes that could be related to the planes as nothing more than clerics or champions with extra steps.
The concept of being innately different from your fellow mortals because of a link to divine/outworldly energies and delving into these abilities goes a long way back and is far from being specific to Golarion.
I do not know why people fear the concept so much. Maybe because they think of PF1 Mythic rules that did put the PCs above non-Mythic characters ? I fully trust the Paizo team to avoid such pitfalls here.
We already have something like this with Oracle and Sorcerer, but only for casters. And Kineticist too now, I guess.
But a Martial chassis that fits this concept ? We have nothing.
Way I see it, it could even make Bloodrager unnecessary in PF2.
I really really hope that is what we will get.
Even more so than the fateweaver (playing with Fortune and Misfortune) concept I once supported for the classes.
The problem with commander and the like is A, envoy exists in starfinder, and the class is confirmed to not exist in starfinder too. If Animist isn't happening because its too close to a PF1 class, than commander isn't happening because of the envoy. The second problem is that SF2 is coming out soon, with a PF2 compatible envoy. It doesn't make much sense to make both, especially not if they aren't putting the mechanic in the core SF2 book as its too similar to the inventor.
What does an Envoy have to do with a Marshal-like character? Envoy literally was a spell-less Bard pretty much and afaik didn't have any commanding abilities.
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What does an Envoy have to do with a Marshal-like character? Envoy literally was a spell-less Bard pretty much and afaik didn't have any commanding abilities.
PF2 Marshal. A Swashbuckler or Thaumaturge with Marshal archetype is pretty much a spell-less Bard.
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neither a swashbuckler nor a Thaumaturge could be a class that leads from the front, deliberately trying to draw the attacks of the enemy, inspiring her allies with her ability to stand firm in the face of an enemy and refuse to go down. A Con first martial defender/tank that protects their allies in a way that inspires them to hit harder. Possibly with the option for a minion that is a dedicated bodyguard, or troop of soldiers that could also benefit from the inspiration.
So like a no spell having summoner who had all day buffs to give to allies. I really haven't seen this class in Pathfinder or Starfinder under a different name.
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I really haven't seen this class in Pathfinder or Starfinder under a different name.
I'm curious what specifically you are trying to replicate.
neither a swashbuckler nor a Thaumaturge could be a class that leads from the front, deliberately trying to draw the attacks of the enemy, inspiring her allies with her ability to stand firm in the face of an enemy
Mmmm. Dunno. That all sounds like Swashbuckler/Thaumaturge to me just fine.
and refuse to go down.
That's only a problem because refusing to go down really isn't a thing in PF2. Even the most defensively built characters go down after a couple or three rounds of heavy front-line fighting.
A Con first martial defender/tank that protects their allies in a way that inspires them to hit harder. Possibly with the option for a minion that is a dedicated bodyguard, or troop of soldiers that could also benefit from the inspiration.
So like a no spell having summoner who had all day buffs to give to allies.
So... Champion with CHA secondary and Marshal archetype. And a handful of other PCs to buff.
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If you're arguing there shouldn't be another defender class because champion exists, I use the same logic to question why we have so many full 10-rank casters when sorcerer and witch cover all the spell lists.
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If you're arguing there shouldn't be another defender class because champion exists, I use the same logic to question why we have so many full 10-rank casters when sorcerer and witch cover all the spell lists.
TBT I also thought of Champion + Marshal to provide what Unicore was describing.
The question would be what unique thing (concept and mechanics) does the new class brings ?
It's entirely possible that the new class(es) doesn't really bring new concepts or mechanics but rather variations of already existing concepts or mechanics. Investigator and Swashbucklers are, pretty much, Rogues with extra steps (and in the case of the Swashbuckler, also less skill proficiencies, skill increases, and skill feats).
In all honesty, any martial + Marshal already provides what most people expect of a Warlord / Commander/ Strategist / whatever, so the only thing I can possible think such a concept could innovate would be something like what Cavaliers used to do in PF1e in that they could share teamwork feats (a kind of feats that you could use if other ally had them) but likely way similar to how the Sniping Duo archetype works in PF2e (chose one or multiple allies, give them certain benefits). I kinda wanted this concept to be covered by an hyphotethic PF2e Inquisitor though, that unlike the 1e version instead of benefiting from teamwork feats alone would instead share them kinda mixing it with the Cavalier, but if I take the "never seen in PF" statement at face value this can't be what they are planning to do, unless things like Thaumaturge are considered as "brand new" even when they are clearly taken inspiration from PF1e classes.
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There's a million cool ways to make interesting defender classes. Last week I played a Gubat Banwa oneshot as the Buwaya Lancer, a crocodile riding class with a range 1 aura around it that costs extra speed to move out of, they get one free attack per round against people trying to move out (which they can use to move them one square), and at the end of an enemy's turn if they're 1 square away from the aura, they get sucked in one square to be stuck in it. It was awesome. Kept people clumped up so they could get repeatedly pummeled by balls.
If you're arguing there shouldn't be another defender class because champion exists,
No, definitely not saying that. Seeing more defensive classes would be really nice.
It might even help break people out of the PF1 mindset that DPR is the only measurement of a character that matters.
I am pointing out that any defensive class is going to struggle to stay upright after being beat on by two CR +2 enemies for a couple or three rounds. Champion, Commander, Vanguard, or otherwise.
Is there a class that gives out bonuses to allies every time they take damage as well as providing some kind of incentive to attack them and not the allies, perhaps a reaction to actually step in the way and take the attack?
I do understand how "never goes down" is not a feature that PF2 will give out easily, but a D12 HP heavy armor class is not something in the game, I think the soldier playtest from SF2 has some interesting elements that could be drawn on here, just with no ranged/heavy weapons focus and instead either going emblematic shield for pure defender, Pole arm banner carrier for more support the team focus, and perhaps even magical staff with a *necromancer/summoned legion of extraplanar creatures as the minion focused branch all feel possible.
*Like a D12 hp non-casting creature caller that does rituals to have their swarm/troop of non-sentient creatures to command around and get bonuses from the character.
If there was no casting, no ability to manifest/unmanifest the troop/swarm in a round (although perhaps that is what the 3rd class path could offer, while the other two could have troops that couldn't manifest), separate HP and mechanics that boost the performance of all allies, it feels like a pretty different class than a summoner to me.