Can you Make See Invisibility Permanent on Someone else

[Zulekia]

Here is the scenario.
Player A can cast see invisibility on himself.
Player B can cast Permanency.

So can Player B make See Invisibility permanent on Player A?

[Taja the Barbarian]

Zulekia wrote:

Here is the scenario.

Player A can cast see invisibility on himself.
Player B can cast Permanency.

So can Player B make See Invisibility permanent on Player A?

RAW, No, for two reasons:

1) You can only makes spells YOU cast permanent*, and
2) Permanency on 'See Invisibility' is self only

Permanency wrote:

Source PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 318

School universal; Level arcanist 5, psychic 5, sorcerer 5, wizard 5
Casting
Casting Time 2 rounds
Components V, S, M (see tables below)
Effect
Range see text
Target see text
Duration permanent; see text
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Description
This spell makes the duration of certain other spells permanent. You first cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell.

Depending on the spell, you must be of a minimum caster level and must expend a specific gp value of diamond dust as a material component.

You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself.

Spell Minimum Caster Level GP Cost
Arcane sight 11th 7,500 gp
Comprehend languages 9th 2,500 gp
Darkvision 10th 5,000 gp
Detect magic 9th 2,500 gp
Read magic 9th 2,500 gp
See invisibility 10th 5,000 gp
Tongues 11th 7,500 gp

You cannot cast these spells on other creatures. This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.

In addition to personal use, permanency can be used to make the following spells permanent on yourself, another creature, or an object (as appropriate).

Spell Minimum Caster Level GP Cost
Enlarge person 9th 2,500 gp
Magic fang 9th 2,500 gp
Magic fang, greater 11th 7,500 gp
Reduce person 9th 2,500 gp
Resistance 9th 2,500 gp
Telepathic bond* 13th 12,500 gp
*Only bonds two creatures per casting of permanency

Additionally, the following spells can be cast upon objects or areas only and rendered permanent.

Spell Minimum Caster Level GP Cost
Alarm 9th 2,500 gp
Animate objects 14th 15,000 gp
Dancing lights 9th 2,500 gp
Ghost sound 9th 2,500 gp
Gust of wind 11th 7,500 gp
Invisibility 10th 5,000 gp
Mage's private sanctum 13th 12,500 gp
Magic mouth 10th 5,000 gp
Phase door 15th 17,500 gp
Prismatic sphere 17th 22,500 gp
Prismatic wall 16th 20,000 gp
Shrink item 11th 7,500 gp
Solid fog 12th 10,000 gp
Stinking cloud 11th 7,500 gp
Symbol of death 16th 20,000 gp
Symbol of fear 14th 15,000 gp
Symbol of insanity 16th 20,000 gp
Symbol of pain 13th 12,500 gp
Symbol of persuasion 14th 15,000 gp
Symbol of sleep 16th 20,000 gp
Symbol of stunning 15th 17,500 gp
Symbol of weakness 15th 17,500 gp
Teleportation circle 17th 22,500 gp
Wall of fire 12th 10,000 gp
Wall of force 13th 7,500 gp
Web 10th 5,000 gp

Spells cast on other targets are vulnerable to dispel magic as normal. The GM may allow other spells to be made permanent.

The fact that Darkvision is on the 'self only' list when it can normally be cast on anyone reinforces the 'the spells can only be made permanent on you' intent (at least to me).

*Yes, the 'Magic Fang' spells listed as valid spells is kinda weird...

[zza ni]

UMDing a scroll is a thing.

[Azothath]

for See Invisibility:D2{personal} & Permanency:U5 on someone else? No.
You first cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell.
one could use (specifically scribed) scrolls but cost! See Invis 2@10 $500, Perm 5@10 $1250 +$5000. They need to be specifically scribed as the scriber sets all the options (like what spell is to become permanent) along with correct material component. Then the various UMD checks... then one Dispel Magic from a CL11 and... might be more practical to get an item that does See Invis.

[Taja the Barbarian]

zza ni wrote:

UMDing a scroll is a thing.

I think Limited Wish's ability to 'Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools' is the 'normal' way to cast a Magic Fang and make it permanent...

[AwesomenessDog]

You can technically go the bonded mind rout to cast any permanent spell on someone who has both the Bonded Mind and Share Spells teamwork feats (and you have them as well ofc). Kinda a high ask when you can just get more temporary solutions with a couple ranks in UMD.

[Pizza Lord]

You can cast magic jar (and have no other targets of equivalent level to your target nearby to make hitting them at random easier), and have them forgo their save to be trapped in your spell focus while you are in their body.

Then, technically you can cast see invisibility, which will be on the body, and permanency (since it's technically you), and then it will be permanent on the body. In this case, the permanency caster would have to cast both spells (plus magic jar). (Unless your GM rules that that's not a spell that stays on a body, like bull's strength might, but instead... stays with the soul).

[Azothath]

right. I'd agree that magic jar/possession by the caster then grabbing the components and casting is the most practical solution for mid-high level cooperative groups where the spell is anchored to the body (most cases, range/target:touch, creature, instantaneous). Usually the question of body/soul arises from death and subsequent raising a body, is the effect still active?
Personal spells are tricky as once the possession ends does the target still qualify as a valid target? The simple answer is NO, so I think it will take some convincing to rule otherwise. see Designing Spells - Target

[Pizza Lord]

Azothath wrote:

right. I'd agree that magic jar/possession by the caster then grabbing the components and casting is the most practical solution for mid-high level cooperative groups where the spell is anchored to the body (most cases, range/target:touch, creature, instantaneous). Usually the question of body/soul arises from death and subsequent raising a body, is the effect still active?

Personal spells are tricky as once the possession ends does the target still qualify as a valid target? The simple answer is NO, so I think it will take some convincing to rule otherwise. see Designing Spells - Target

The former body (the one you left) would not qualify for YOU or PERSONAL, obviously. So if you magic jar'd into your friend the elf, you couldn't then cast shield and have it be in effect on your comatose body that's laying on the floor. It would be on you, in the body of the elf. If you then left the elf and went back into the gem focus, the shield would stay on the elf, it wouldn't move to protect the magic jar receptacle, or your original body if you went back into it or ended the spell.

So yes they would be invalid targets (in a manner of speaking), but it doesn't matter because they were valid when it was cast. In this case, it would only matter if the spell or effect would be considered mental or affecting the body. If I charm person a target and then they magic jar in to the body of a dragon or something. They're still charmed and consider me a trusted friend, just in another body (even if they somehow count as being not a humanoid anymore or somehow that body would be invalid for the spell.

Now, it might require some rulings if you cast charm person on a target and then you magic jar/possess a different body without telling anyone. Assuming you didn't inform them or otherwise give any clues to it happening, does the magic of charm person just automatically shift the target's feelings towards you in the new body? Just, one minute they're looking at with trust, then you mind leap into someone across the room and they just slowly pivot to gaze at them trustingly?

[Azothath]

My concern was that the spell's targeting held over the duration of the spell (as there are good reasons to doubt spells carrying on with drastic changes like death and petrification).
Occult Rules – Possession
and Possession spells, then Object Possession:N(2-7) spells {“You can’t use any spells or other abilities while possessing an object.”}.

After some consideration I can only offer my opinion as RAW isn't clear on this moderate level corner case. I think a possessing spellcaster is considered to have successfully made the UMD check for the possessed creature for spells it cast during the possession and whose duration exceeds the time of the possession.
For Game Balance I can't see how a spellcaster whom knows and cast the spell would fare worse than someone using UMD. This would give a green light to personal spells carrying on post possession.

I can see where some GMs might use the initial conditions (as Pizza Lord did) or rule that the creature is no longer the spellcaster. It will be mixed so I'd ask(skill check) or do some experimentation in your home game to determine how things will work in a more critical situation.

[Zombie Lord]

it could be a little exspesive, but player B could use a ring of spellstoring to hand it off to player A

[Taja the Barbarian]

Zombie Lord wrote:

it could be a little exspesive, but player B could use a ring of spellstoring to hand it off to player A

One little issue with that for See Invisiblity:

Ring of Spell Storing wrote:

Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 174, PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 479

Aura moderate evocation CL 9th
Slot ring; Price 50,000 gp; Weight —
Description
A ring of spell storing contains up to 5 levels of spells (either divine or arcane, or even a mix of both spell types) that the wearer can cast. Each spell has a caster level equal to the minimum level needed to cast that spell. The user need not provide any material components or focus to cast the spell, and there is no arcane spell failure chance for wearing armor (because the ring wearer need not gesture). The activation time for the ring is the same as the casting time for the relevant spell, with a minimum of 1 standard action.

For a randomly generated ring, treat it as a scroll to determine what spells are stored in it. If you roll a spell that would put the ring over the five-level limit, ignore that roll; the ring has no more spells in it.

A spellcaster can cast any spells into the ring, so long as the total spell levels do not add up to more than 5. Metamagic versions of spells take up storage space equal to their spell level modified by the metamagic feat. A spellcaster can use a scroll to put a spell into the minor ring of spell storing.

The ring magically imparts to the wearer the names of all spells currently stored within it.
Construction
Requirements Forge Ring, imbue with spell ability; Cost 25,000 gp

As a 5th level spell, Caster Level 9 is just short of what you need to make See Invisibility permanent...

Of course, you might argue that an Arcanist* loading the ring would set the minimum caster level as 10, but that is one of those grey areas the rules have generally declined to elaborate on...

*I'm assuming it is fairly unlikely for a Sorcerer to spend a precious 'spell known' slot on Permanency...

[Zombie Lord]

would that just be for randomly generated rings found as treasure? if a player cast a spell into the ring, would thier caster level then be used when a different wearer uses the ring later?

A Major ring just to use a Heightened permanence seems excessive. If crafting time wasn't an issue, forge ring would mitigate the gold cost if the ring was sold after everyone finished using it. (animate dead for everyone!)

[Zombie Lord]

oh, I love sorcerers! I either use Mnemonic Vestments or Paragon Surge for utility spells like that

[OmniMage]

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

zza ni wrote:

UMDing a scroll is a thing.

I think Limited Wish's ability to 'Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 5th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools' is the 'normal' way to cast a Magic Fang and make it permanent...

Its an awfully expensive way to cast magic fang don't you think? Animate objects would be worse as you will need to use wish to cast it.

I agree that permanency does says "You first cast the desired spell...", but I think it makes more sense to allow permanency to work on other casters spells.

[Taja the Barbarian]

Zombie Lord wrote:

would that just be for randomly generated rings found as treasure? if a player cast a spell into the ring, would thier caster level then be used when a different wearer uses the ring later?

...

Nope. The similar Weapon and Armor enchants are open to endless debate, but RAW the ring states quite clearly that the minimum caster level is used for ALL spells cast from it.

[tridiak]

If DM is generous, he may allow Wish or Miracle to grant the player See Invisibility.