| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
were already burning it at the stake based on essentially nothing,
We are dead set on making this system like that system isn't nothing. It tells you a LOT about what they're going for.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
How do you know something is a duck? It looks like a duck, it walks like a duck, it swims like a duck, it's got a bill like a duck.
This is a game played largely in your head. The duck doesn't look like a duck. It's duckness is enforced through game mechanics. You need to cross a lake "hey I got this..." swim speed. Someone gets in your face while your hands are full of a laser rifle? BEAK TO THE NOSE! Aoo as I walk by? I have +2 from my waddle. Tiny air vent? Hey I can just walk in. It reminds you that it's not a human in a latex nose with a weird culture it's a creature with an entirely different outlook and physiology.
None of those features are unique to ducks, but when you put them together you get a picture of a duck.
PF2's paradigm of slowly growing into your species over an absurd number of levels dilutes that. Doubly so when you have a meh ability in a tree for another one (Like the dwarfs ability to ignore only rocky difficult terrain) For the levels you'll be playing most of the time there just isn't a whole lot of mechanical differences between the species. And differences that really matter. Making a species technically 4 armed but not having that really do anything doesn't help that.
So even if the cantina is THERE its going to have to be a big break with PF2s game design for the cantina to really matter.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
At least in the video Thurston expanded a bit that flying races will still have flight at level one. I'm assuming multi-armed races will get their arms at level one too.
I would be very, very surprised if they didn't have that as a base feature. That said, they will not be nearly as functional as in SF1. As in, there is no way you will be able to have the full benefits of 4+ free hands and the weapons they can hold, especially not at level 1. That is one of the areas were you actually run into problems with the PF2 system.
We'll see how the devs work with that.
PF2's paradigm of slowly growing into your species over an absurd number of levels dilutes that. Doubly so when you have a meh ability in a tree for another one (Like the dwarfs ability to ignore only rocky difficult terrain) For the levels you'll be playing most of the time there just isn't a whole lot of mechanical differences between the species. And differences that really matter. Making a species technically 4 armed but not having that really do anything doesn't help that.
So even if the cantina is THERE its going to have to be a big break with PF2s game design for the cantina to really matter.
One, even in PF2 that is objectively not true. Some ancestries don't have a lot of difference early on, simply because the physical differences are not that great. But size, vision types and Speed alone make a hell of a difference.
Two, what you are doing is still crying murder based on next to nothing. I get that you are frustrated and that is understandable. But this isn't helping anyone, including yourself, and it certainly solves absolutely nothing. You, just like the rest of us, have literally no idea what the devs will be doing with the ancestry system. Just because the systems have to be compatible, that doesn't mean they have to be the same.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure how much PF2 you have played, but my catfolk who can reroll his and his allies' Reflex saves + keep somebody reduced to 0 hp alive, conscious and at 1 hp by wailing awfully loudly sure feels different from my lizardfolk friend who can turn into a huge bone dinosaur and get advice from the stars.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just as a demonstration even the base ancestry system can work reasonably well:
Skittermander ancestry:
- HP: 6
- Size: small
- Speed: 25 (they're very small, but one of their things seems to be being hella fast, so they get the base 25)
- Attribute Boosts: DEX, CHA, INT Flaw (Paizo is moving away from making people naturally dumb, so that might not stay)
- Languages: Common, Skittermander
- low-light vision
- Six-Armed
Heritage:
- Clingy: You are trained in Athletics and gain the Titan Wrestler skill feat.
Level 1 feat:
- Hyper (free-action Stride 1/day for example)
So at level 1, you should reasonably get a decent representation of literally everything a Skittermander would get in SF1. It's not gonna be 100% the same due to balance reasons, especially the grapple thing. Though you could probably crank that up a notch, this is just a quick and dirty example.
This is not to say that weirder ancestries aren't going to struggle with the base system. They probably will. But then who says that we absolutely need to just use the base ancestry system? Stacking stuff on top of this is pretty easy and even within the PF2 rules.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm not sure how much PF2 you have played, but my catfolk who can reroll his and his allies' Reflex saves + keep somebody reduced to 0 hp alive, conscious and at 1 hp by wailing awfully loudly sure feels different from my lizardfolk friend who can turn into a huge bone dinosaur and get advice from the stars.
At what level?
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
12? Midway through a Paizo AP. I'll take that over my ancestry/species being represented solely by abilities balanced for level 1.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One, even in PF2 that is objectively not true. Some ancestries don't have a lot of difference early on, simply because the physical differences are not that great. But size, vision types and Speed alone make a hell of a difference.
Small and medium don't have much difference. I'm trying to to think of a time it mattered halfway through Edgewatch, the start of abomination vaults, or a few pfs2 games and.. I got nothing for size mattering in the memmory banks.
Vision only matters if the party is trying to sneak around. Otherwise you just crank on a light and let the monsters come to you. Unless you have an all stealth party Tanky Mc ClankClank is ringing the dinnerbell anyway.
between fleet and 40 years of people being slowed by armor I can't see speed as a defining thing for a species.
You, just like the rest of us, have literally no idea what the devs will be doing with the ancestry system. Just because the systems have to be compatible, that doesn't mean they have to be the same.
Well either I'm right (in which case the hue and cry is warranted)
Or its something they might move away from. In which case that's which way I'm pushing. Its a design element in PF2 that I really disliked that is really contrary to the theme of starfinder. PF2 doesn't trust ratfolk with functioning cheekpouches till level 9 and four feats was a huge turn off. I might be the only one bothered by that, but for starfinder not having the differences or not having them FUNCTIONAL is probably a problem with a wider audience. The example of hands technically being there but functionally not doing anything different than just grabbing things from your pack if a big red flag.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
12? Midway through a Paizo AP. I'll take that over my ancestry/species being represented solely by abilities balanced for level 1.
My species will show a difference after 6 months/ a year of gaming just blends in with all the other stuff your character picks up over 12 levels. It doesn't even say that it's a part of the species, you could have learned the yowl of not dying at bard camp.
Not every game is played at those levels and not every campaign even makes it that far.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Not every game is played at those levels and not every campaign even makes it that far.
One of the main design goals of the PF2 system was to "ensure that high level combat is not cumbersome like it used to be so that people enjoy playing at those levels more.
I think the "games don't get that high level" is mostly a function of "games can fall apart after a few months for a variety of reasons". But likely SF2 will have APs that start at 10th level like PF2 does (those are personally my favorite.)
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really think this "First level ancestry abilities" concern is quite overblown.
Humans in Starfinder get a bonus feat at level 1 and an extra skill rank each level.
Humans in PF2 can get the exact same thing, and then *also* awesome choices at 5, 9, 13, and 17, and a bonus one at 3rd if they take a general feat.
Androids in Starfinder get a bonus vs biological and mind affecting stuff, darkvision, penalty to social stuff, and an armor upgrade slot.
Androids in PF2 get a bonus vs biological stuff, low light vision, penalty to social stuff, a first level feat that could be an internal compartment, and a choice of much more impactful stuff from a variety of heritages, and then *also* awesome choices at 5, 9, 13, and 17, and a bonus one at 3rd if they take a general feat.
It's clear that there is quite a bit of room at level 1 for interesting stuff. We know early access to flight is already on the table, and yeah cheek pouches being kept back until later levels is weird, but I don't see all the upsides people are talking about.
It';s also not like you can't grant functionality at level 1 and then expand it through feats at higher levels. Ysoki getting underfoot is an example of that.
|
A solution for this could be as simple as if a species needs more special abilities at 1st level, to make room for them in a set page count per specie, reduce the number of ancestry feats at higher levels either by having fewer options per level or having them stop after a certain level, or fewer and skip some levels.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really think this "First level ancestry abilities" concern is quite overblown.
Humans in Starfinder get a bonus feat at level 1 and an extra skill rank each level.
Humans in PF2 can get the exact same thing, and then *also* awesome choices at 5, 9, 13, and 17, and a bonus one at 3rd if they take a general feat.
Androids in Starfinder get a bonus vs biological and mind affecting stuff, darkvision, penalty to social stuff, and an armor upgrade slot.
Androids in PF2 get a bonus vs biological stuff, low light vision, penalty to social stuff, a first level feat that could be an internal compartment, and a choice of much more impactful stuff from a variety of heritages, and then *also* awesome choices at 5, 9, 13, and 17, and a bonus one at 3rd if they take a general feat.
It's clear that there is quite a bit of room at level 1 for interesting stuff. We know early access to flight is already on the table, and yeah cheek pouches being kept back until later levels is weird, but I don't see all the upsides people are talking about.
Its mostly the same to be honest because you got all the stuff you got at level 1 and if you wanted more later racial feats were a thing.
The difference is you didnt often have to piecemeal together your basic features like your wings or darkvision etc so you had a pretty potent core of abilities, which you could then improve if you wanted to.
It sounds to me from further interviews that they plan to not be slavishly devoted to clean 1 to 1 ports of mechanics from P2e so we may yet see some loosening in areas where P2 is very conservative, including flight climbing and burrowing. So i will be very anxious to see what they cook up for the Kasatha and Kiirinta and the like
Multiple hands seems like one of the least problematic things you could deal with in PF2. You're still limited by the action economy, so you're not getting additional attacks. The main issues I can see are having multiple things available without switching. For example, you could have both a ranged weapon and a melee weapon ready at once, or a two-handed weapon and a shield.
Without some action economy persnicket. A kasathan soldier could have a space Pike out for Aooing anyone coming up to them as well as the giant laser dakka gun out and shooting. That's a large advantage over any other kind of soldier.
the current hands thing is really clunky as far as mechanics and immersion goes.
|
|
This might help some it's from the field test document
QUICK-SWAP [reaction] FEAT 1
SOLDIER
Trigger You are wielding a two-handed weapon and a creature
moves adjacent to you.
You stow your current weapon and draw another two-handed
weapon. If you have multiple sets of arms, you can instead choose
a set to become active.
But it won't help a skittermander trying to serve 6 drinks at one time. I get the need to try to balance combat but it would be fun to have some non-combat uses for having multiple arms otherwise having multi arms would not have evolved.
But it won't help a skittermander trying to serve 6 drinks at one time.
It wouldn't help you to whack someone either would it? Because you've used your reaction to swap your arms you don't have a reaction to bap them in the face.
I mean, it's nice when it happens, but how often is it going to? I feel that that kind of thing makes for a neat ancestral ability.
Someone draws an AOO from a vesks tail? Almost never.
Someone draws an AOO from the dragonkin with reach big sharp pointy teeth, the cryopike or the vanguard with a whip? Multiple times per combat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Its mostly the same to be honest because you got all the stuff you got at level 1 and if you wanted more later racial feats were a thing.
Don't forget, you get ancestry feats in PF2 without trading in your other means of character customization.
|
|
It wouldn't help you to whack someone either would it? Because you've used your reaction to swap your arms you don't have a reaction to bap them in the face.
But it won't help a skittermander trying to serve 6 drinks at one time.
your right. Also odd you can only draw another two-handed weapon. There are times I like the 3-action economy and other times it seems to be micro nitpicking tiny actions. If spiders had to use the 3-action economy and had to choose an active pair of limbs for each step that's 7 actions for moving 4 pair of legs.
The other thing it limits is the creation of 3 or more handed weapons. Not sure what is wrong with having 4 arms and getting 3 actions as long as you can't use them to make more than one attack per action without special feats.
There's a feat that at least you shoot 4 pistols at one time, but they all have to be the same type. It appears Paizo is more concerned with limiting damage-type options than the actual number of attacks. Back to stacking 5 SROs to make one character...
I'm pretty sure the way flying and multi-armed ancestries are going to work is that the base ability is functional, but not impressive, and that you will upgrade it as you go by investing ancestry feats (and sometimes class feats, like the soldier playtest has a feat for multi-armed folks.)
|
|
Don't forget, you get ancestry feats in PF2 without trading in your other means of character customization.
Its mostly the same to be honest because you got all the stuff you got at level 1 and if you wanted more later racial feats were a thing.
With the right ancestry feats you could make a species evolve enough to make an evolutionist without taking the class.
|
|
Don't forget, you get ancestry feats in PF2 without trading in your other means of character customization.
Its mostly the same to be honest because you got all the stuff you got at level 1 and if you wanted more later racial feats were a thing.
Yeah but trust me Id rather trade in my ancestral feats for more class feats not the other way around.28
Yeah but trust me Id rather trade in my ancestral feats for more class feats not the other way around.28
PF2 lets you trade class feats for other feats, but never the other way around. There's a hierarchy of "how valuable/powerful feats are" and it goes basically Class>Ancestry>General>Skill.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would like if there was some way to avoid "Your pc is forcefully made more stereotypical for their ancestry" as you level up.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would like if there was some way to avoid "Your pc is forcefully made more stereotypical for their ancestry" as you level up.
So you want the progressive insurance commercials where they show you how to avoid turning into your parents?
So you want the progressive insurance commercials where they show you how to avoid turning into your parents?
I don't think that's a thing in my country. That sounds odd for insurance.
I would like if there was some way to avoid "Your pc is forcefully made more stereotypical for their ancestry" as you level up.
Take adopted ancestry and grab a different ancestry's stuff
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would like if there was some way to avoid "Your pc is forcefully made more stereotypical for their ancestry" as you level up.
I genuinely don't think this happens at all in PF2 because you *choose* what ancestry feat you take, you're not assigned like "Greedy" and "Hateful" because you're a dwarf.
Like your 5th level Dwarf feat can be "blast resistance" or "better darkvision". The options you don't pick don't reflect your character, and if there are no good options to pick (this is not normally an issue in my experience) it's because they haven't printed enough ancestry feats.
Plus I assume "universally available ancestry feats" (like the Fey Influence ones in PF2) are going to be more common in SF2.
Take adopted ancestry and grab a different ancestry's stuff
Spending a limited feat so that I can be bestowed with the honour of taking flavourless human feats doesn't really fix much. Though I will say that I hope humans don't have bland flavourless feats to a degree in starfinder, because of humans actually having a flavour in Starfinder.
I genuinely don't think this happens at all in PF2 because you *choose* what ancestry feat you take, you're not assigned like "Greedy" and "Hateful" because you're a dwarf.
Like your 5th level Dwarf feat can be "blast resistance" or "better darkvision". The options you don't pick don't reflect your character, and if there are no good options to pick (this is not normally an issue in my experience) it's because they haven't printed enough ancestry feats.
That has not been my experience with PF2e. Picking from a list where I want nothing, doesn't change that I want nothing from it.
Plus I assume "universally available ancestry feats" (like the Fey Influence ones in PF2) are going to be more common in SF2.
I definitely hope so.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think there's lots of room for universally available ancestry feats that deal with what type of planet you are from or if you grew up living on spaceships. The same species on different planets with different gravity is a much bigger difference the same ancestry but from the other side of the river.
Adopted ancestry works great in Starfinder. Shirren and Kasatha are not native to the pact worlds, so may have picked up local customs. I could see a shirren character going nuts picking different Adopted ancestries.
|
|
It wouldn't help you to whack someone either would it? Because you've used your reaction to swap your arms you don't have a reaction to bap them in the face.
But it won't help a skittermander trying to serve 6 drinks at one time.
I figured out what QUICK-SWAP [reaction] FEAT is good for or what its intended use is. When using a two-handed ranged weapon and an opponent moves into melee range to attack you can switch from a ranged to a melee weapon. That sets you up to be ready to attack on your next turn. It also lets others in your party use you to get a flanking bonus on their turn.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Now that I think about it, even planetary feats would probably need tweaks for me.
Something just seems innately friction-y to me about things like "your ancestry is from a desert planet, so now, after spending three levels on space stations, ice-planets, and a forest-planet you are better at doing desert things".
Maybe if they make it something that innately expands from play using the rarity system? Spend a while on desert planets and you get access to the desert planet feats.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That has not been my experience with PF2e. Picking from a list where I want nothing, doesn't change that I want nothing from it.
Can you tell me which ancestry it was where you were having trouble picking an option? I find if nothing else, the going back and taking the level 1 feats which are often broadly applicable is a good option, like you can always get training in two skills plus a lore for an ancestry feat.
FWIW, "You are from an ice planet so you can survive those conditions" would be a heritage (like Arctic Elf), not an ancestry feat. Heritages are like immutable facts about your personal history, whereas ancestry feats are "which aspects of your people's culture resonate with you."
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Two things I'm curious to get a benchmark on: lvl 1 telepathy, and lvl 1 blindsight/sense. Just like flight, they seem like things that could upset the PF2 balance, but are fairly common (and easy to add later via itemization) in SF species. Are there many species in PF2 that start with telepathy or blindsight/sense?
For the matter, I hope blindsight/sense gets some TLC in SF2. Currently, it's useable, but there's a lot of questions and grey areas about it. Does blindsight/sense (hereafter, bss) sound or vibration work in a vacuum, what's the difference between sound and vibration anyways, do more esoteric things like bss thought or emotion require a medium to work through, can non-mindless things that are usually immune to mind-affecting stuff (like necrovites or SROs) be sensed via bss thought, what blocks various bss, and so on.
|
|
Now that I think about it, even planetary feats would probably need tweaks for me.
Something just seems innately friction-y to me about things like "your ancestry is from a desert planet, so now, after spending three levels on space stations, ice-planets, and a forest-planet you are better at doing desert things".
Maybe if they make it something that innately expands from play using the rarity system? Spend a while on desert planets and you get access to the desert planet feats.
Maybe in a planets stat block or description there could be a section for, backgrounds, and haratages that would be available to any character that was born and raised there, and a section for ancestery feats that would become available to any one that has spent an entire level on the planet before leaving up. Or instead of having them in the planet description make them more universal but have Prerequisite like born on an high gravity plant.
I would be very, very surprised if they didn't have that as a base feature. That said, they will not be nearly as functional as in SF1. As in, there is no way you will be able to have the full benefits of 4+ free hands and the weapons they can hold, especially not at level 1. That is one of the areas were you actually run into problems with the PF2 system.Multiple hands seems like one of the least problematic things you could deal with in PF2. You're still limited by the action economy, so you're not getting additional attacks. The main issues I can see are having multiple things available without switching. For example, you could have both a ranged weapon and a melee weapon ready at once, or a two-handed weapon and a shield.
It's actually one of the most problematic. PF2 does a lot of balancing around how many hands something needs to use and how many free hands that leaves you with. For example, shields give you AC/damage mitigation options in return for reducing your damage due to having to pick a one-handed weapon. Two-handed weapons deal a lot more damage and have easier access to things like longer reach but leave your hands occupied, so you can't use other items or certain feats easily. Certain feats require you to have a free hand and are really strong to compensate for it, allowing for a "duelist" theme that is actually effective. A skittermander could have a shield, a two-handed weapon and still have two free hands to use those strong feats. The system just can't handle that.
That said, it is not unlikely that together with the devs, we can find a good middleground somewhere.
Two things I'm curious to get a benchmark on: lvl 1 telepathy, and lvl 1 blindsight/sense. Just like flight, they seem like things that could upset the PF2 balance, but are fairly common (and easy to add later via itemization) in SF species. Are there many species in PF2 that start with telepathy or blindsight/sense?
For the matter, I hope blindsight/sense gets some TLC in SF2. Currently, it's useable, but there's a lot of questions and grey areas about it. Does blindsight/sense (hereafter, bss) sound or vibration work in a vacuum, what's the difference between sound and vibration anyways, do more esoteric things like bss thought or emotion require a medium to work through, can non-mindless things that are usually immune to mind-affecting stuff (like necrovites or SROs) be sensed via bss thought, what blocks various bss, and so on.
Such things are really rare in PF2. For example, the automaton ancestry (basically magic robots) can get a level 1 ancestry feat that allows for telepathy on touch, which can later be upgraded to 10ft range. As for BSS? No clue. There are a few creatures with Mindsense ("[the creature] senses the thoughts of intelligent creatures and builds a perception of reality from this information, allowing [the creature] to “see” as a precise sense. Invisible intelligent creatures are visible to it.), but I don't think any existing ancestries have something like that.
But that benchmark for PF2 means almost nothing for SF2. Ancestry abilities are balanced based on how useful they are in context and how hard they are to replace with items. For example level 1 flight in PF2 would be insanely strong for anything with ranged capabilities, as many enemies don't have a chance against that. In SF, it saves you a bit of gold at level 1 and enemies usually have strong ranged options (afaik). So it goes from straight-up gamebreaking to dirt cheap just like that. With how prolific and varied technology is in SF, most abilities will experience as similar reduction in "price".
Telepathy becomes cheaper due to communication equipment, though I'm guessing not nearly as much due to it being completely silent. On the other hand, the distance between characters should be longer on average and I'm sure there are items and abilities that detect telepathy, so it'll probably be stronger to compensate.
That's about the best I can give you.
Well either I'm right (in which case the hue and cry is warranted)
Or its something they might move away from. In which case that's which way I'm pushing.
It's not that you are voicing your opinion or the content that is problematic. It is the manner you are doing it in. Voicing what you (don't) want is good and even necessary so Paizo knows what to look out for. But there is a massive difference between voicing your opinion in a constructive and polite way and what is essentially you fearmongering.
Because either way you are coming off as a jerk, especially to the people who can actually solve those problems.
Can you tell me which ancestry it was where you were having trouble picking an option? I find if nothing else, the going back and taking the level 1 feats which are often broadly applicable is a good option, like you can always get training in two skills plus a lore for an ancestry feat.
So far each mid-level character I've made bar one, who was a senile old elf so those feats about being very old and remembering old skills did honestly fit rather well.
For the sake of example, I'd say the kobold I made once was probably my largest struggle with picking ancestry feats?
FWIW, "You are from an ice planet so you can survive those conditions" would be a heritage (like Arctic Elf), not an ancestry feat. Heritages are like immutable facts about your personal history, whereas
Yeah but the desert thing was something people have been talking about as an attempt to come up with broad ancestry feats so that paizo doesn't need to make 20 feats for each new ancestry.
ancestry feats are "which aspects of your people's culture resonate with you."
And that is the issue. I don't want my characters to be forced to have more of their culture then they had earlier on. It gives me friction for that to be something that has to increase even if you're not engaging with that culture at all.
ancestry feats are "which aspects of your people's culture resonate with you."And that is the issue. I don't want my characters to be forced to have more of their culture then they had earlier on. It gives me friction for that to be something that has to increase even if you're not engaging with that culture at all.
You normally only get 5 ancestry feats and I can't think of an ancestry - even those with few options - that is forced into culture-related feats at any level. For quite a few (if not most), you don't even get a culture-related feat past like level 5.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Because either way you are coming off as a jerk, especially to the people who can actually solve those problems.
Backhanded insults aren't any better than the straightforward kind. You have no call to police other peoples tones if you're going to be that overt. Goodbye.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Best not to assign negative intention to anyone, but BigNorseWolf especially. They can come across as brusque, but argues in earnest. I remember them getting downvoted in reddit and iirc called out here just for they way they stated some absolute facts that happened to be critical of Starfinder.
Best not to assign negative intention to anyone, but BigNorseWolf especially. They can come across as brusque, but argues in earnest. I remember them getting downvoted in reddit and iirc called out here just for they way they stated some absolute facts that happened to be critical of Starfinder.
It would take a lot more than that for me to assume negative intent or anything of the sort. Especially in a small community such as this and during a difficult transition period. My default assumption is that when emotions are high, stuff gets said, but that's all it is. A smarter man than I would have clarified that :/
The actual concern - ancestries being a big question mark in the transition - is absolutely not imagined, that's true.
Managing Creative Director (Starfinder)
|
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
Stepping in again (as I wait for my last flight home).
The Cantina is NOT going anywhere. We're committed to providing a variety of new and interesting species in this new edition of the game. We're committed to doing so with regularity.
THAT BEING SAID. One area that we want to improved upon from 1st edition is the inclusion of lots of Ancestries that don't have sufficient information to properly run in a game. One piece of feedback that we're keenly aware of, is that a lot of species in SF1 didn't have a lot of detail/depth beyond their physical appearance and abilities. Not a slight on the old edition, but a facet of how it was an edition that focused on doing a lot of establishing shots. Going forward we want to make sure we can provide species with strong details AND provide opportunities to play the "people in the cantina."
Anywho, not going to say much more. We're still a WAYS off from discussing some of these plans.
Carry on the lively discussion! :D
Stepping in again (as I wait for my last flight home).
The Cantina is NOT going anywhere. We're committed to providing a variety of new and interesting species in this new edition of the game. We're committed to doing so with regularity.
THAT BEING SAID. One area that we want to improved upon from 1st edition is the inclusion of lots of Ancestries that don't have sufficient information to properly run in a game. One piece of feedback that we're keenly aware of, is that a lot of species in SF1 didn't have a lot of detail/depth beyond their physical appearance and abilities. Not a slight on the old edition, but a facet of how it was an edition that focused on doing a lot of establishing shots. Going forward we want to make sure we can provide species with strong details AND provide opportunities to play the "people in the cantina."
Anywho, not going to say much more. We're still a WAYS off from discussing some of these plans.
Carry on the lively discussion! :D
Awesome! That's my personal sweet-spot: more species than PF2 does ancestries, but getting more detail than SF1 (even if that means the pace is a little slower).
Ah. So the Cantina might be a little less diverse, but much more detailed. I mean, Luke would approve, right? Might help to know who not to be too close to at the bar. Some individuals of many species have…friends. With…arms.
Oh and hey…droids are allowed in here right? How many droidesque species are there in Starffinder?
Even better, this will take 5 players, all Solarians SROs. One player playing the head, body, and legs, using Solar Armor.
Sounds like Voltron.
I wonder how comfortable SF2 is going to be just referencing rules from Pathfinder books. For example, Leshies probably are not very common in space, but could they just print a "Hydroponics Leshy" heritage and some Starfinderesque Leshy feats and rely on Pathfinder to support the rest of the rules? Since like "Harmlessly Cute", "Grasping Reach", and "Ageless Spirit" are totally valid feats for Starfinder Leshies (and are freely available on the Archives of Nethys) and you wouldn't necessarily want to devote page space to reprinting them.
This allows you to keep the Cantina pretty big by needing less space for "the traditional fantasy types". Since like Space Dwarves are still good at hauling things, so you wouldn't necessarily need to reprint "Unburdened Iron" you can instead just "talk about what Pact Worlds Dwarves are like."