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I still say they need a Modernfinder game dealing with modern times and near future to tie the settings together. This may be problematic with the Gap, though.
This talk of compatibility has gotten me dusting off my old Chrono Trigger style time hopping campaign that I had in mind during d20 times, but rejected due to fundamental differences between 3.5, d20 modern, and d20 Star Wars. I know Paizo can do this better.
That's a huge gap to fill, which is likely literally why there's a Gap in the first place. We may never know why the Gap happened or what happened during it, which makes a great source for conspiracy theories in Starfinder.
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One thing I'm excited for in the overlap (in addition to the fact that i really want to play a 2e Starfinder independently of PF) is classes that have similar concepts as existing pf2e classes, but aren't actually built the same-- like if the Envoy essentially ends up functioning like a Martial Bard, that's a very exciting thing to add to a PF game we might not have gotten in PF, because 'hey, that's the bard's thing'
Ditto for the Soldier-- so long as it can use enough PF weapons usefully, its kinda like 'the path the fighter didn't take' as this tanky defensive class that projects control effects without any magic. If you can perform that with a greatsword, blackpowder guns, and/or bows, you're in good shape.
On the flip, if you wanted a more offensive soldier, handing the Fighter Starfinder weapons has you covered.
So I hope that they don't duplicate PF2e classes into SF2e ones, rather I hope that they remix elements such that no class is 1 to 1 with a PF class.
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One thing I'm excited for in the overlap (in addition to the fact that i really want to play a 2e Starfinder independently of PF) is classes that have similar concepts as existing pf2e classes, but aren't actually built the same-- like if the Envoy essentially ends up functioning like a Martial Bard, that's a very exciting thing to add to a PF game we might not have gotten in PF, because 'hey, that's the bard's thing'
Ditto for the Soldier-- so long as it can use enough PF weapons usefully, its kinda like 'the path the fighter didn't take' as this tanky defensive class that projects control effects without any magic. If you can perform that with a greatsword, blackpowder guns, and/or bows, you're in good shape.
On the flip, if you wanted a more offensive soldier, handing the Fighter Starfinder weapons has you covered.
So I hope that they don't duplicate PF2e classes into SF2e ones, rather I hope that they remix elements such that no class is 1 to 1 with a PF class.
Ah! And there's the trick I was missing, because it's also important that they not try to keep them as carefully carved away from the PF2 classes as the PF2 classes are from each other (and, presumably, as the SF2 classes will be from one another). So, like, 95% overlap is bad, but 30-50% overlap is actually good in some cases, and possibly up to 70% if the other 30% is interesting and distinct enough.
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One thing I'm excited for in the overlap (in addition to the fact that i really want to play a 2e Starfinder independently of PF) is classes that have similar concepts as existing pf2e classes, but aren't actually built the same-- like if the Envoy essentially ends up functioning like a Martial Bard, that's a very exciting thing to add to a PF game we might not have gotten in PF, because 'hey, that's the bard's thing'
Ditto for the Soldier-- so long as it can use enough PF weapons usefully, its kinda like 'the path the fighter didn't take' as this tanky defensive class that projects control effects without any magic. If you can perform that with a greatsword, blackpowder guns, and/or bows, you're in good shape.
On the flip, if you wanted a more offensive soldier, handing the Fighter Starfinder weapons has you covered.
So I hope that they don't duplicate PF2e classes into SF2e ones, rather I hope that they remix elements such that no class is 1 to 1 with a PF class.
It works both ways too. If there isn't enough to distinguish the Operator from the Rogue for instance, they can just include an Operator racket and a few tech based Rogue feats. 2e's Inventor is already basically just a better version of Starfinder's Engineer so they can save the page space for something else if they want to.
Personally, I'm excited for the Vanguard to be playable in pathfinder, so I can finally have a class that's built for armored defense without needed to be associated with a deity or cause.
I still say they need a Modernfinder game dealing with modern times and near future to tie the settings together. This may be problematic with the Gap, though.
This talk of compatibility has gotten me dusting off my old Chrono Trigger style time hopping campaign that I had in mind during d20 times, but rejected due to fundamental differences between 3.5, d20 modern, and d20 Star Wars. I know Paizo can do this better.
A game system that handles several eras reminds me of GURPS, the Generic Universal RolePlaying System by Steve Jackson Games. It is a good system, a little too detail-oriented for my taste but my wife really likes it. And it feels fragmented, with several setting that should not mix, such as not mixing superheroes with medieval fantasy adventurers.
However, a modern-setting Pathfinder, let me call it Streetfinder, would be the same Golarion setting as Pathfinder but a century or two later than the current PF2 period. We already have Alkenstar in the Mana Wastes for acting out the Old West, middle and late 1800s in Earth history, so Golarion has a foundation for approaching modern times. Thus, Streetfinder could avoid fragmentation across incompatible genres by sticking to a single modern history for Golarion. It would have modern gadgets but also magic for those willing to study it.
However, Pathfinder is built on a combat system. I think Starfinder is too, but I haven't played Starfinder yet. Combat is appropriate for a wild frontier, but a modern setting is civilized, so combat means a war or a police shootout. War is too large scale for character-driven roleplaying, and a shootout means that something has gone wrong with either a criminal enterprise or police crime prevention. Streetfinder could still have thrilling adventures, such as a spy thriller, a detective drama, or a rescue operation, but it would need more robust non-combat encounters, such as escape via car chase or extinguishing a forest fire.
As for the Gap in history that begins Starfinder, Paizo could publish a Starfinder adventure path that resolves the Gap. An appropriate resolution could be that a disaster ruptured time itself so that history has multiple options. And Golarion time travelers could be trying to repair it, so we delve into Chronofinder which combines Pathfinder, Streetfinder, and Starfinder.
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As for the Gap in history that begins Starfinder, Paizo could publish a Starfinder adventure path that resolves the Gap. An appropriate resolution could be that a disaster ruptured time itself so that history has multiple options. And Golarion time travelers could be trying to repair it, so we delve into Chronofinder which combines Pathfinder, Streetfinder, and Starfinder.
That's the thing, though. The whole point of the Gap was so they didn't have to cover that stuff... and there's a lot of reasons why they wouldn't want to cover that stuff.
First, simplest, as you get closer to modern, things get more constrained. Our intuitions of the way things should work, and how people in xyz situation would act get more honed and more obtrusive. PF2 Golarion is outright implausible in the way that its various cultures manage to coexist without massively restructuring each other, but we let it go because it's all fantasy. I don't know Starfinder all that well, but I suspect that it's similar - a lot of places that are created to be "interesting setting for adventuring in and/or for adventurers to interact with" rather than "internally consistent part of an internally consistent whole". The closer you get to modern, the less suspension of disbelief you have to play with.
Second... modern games just don't sell as well. They don't, and they haven't. GURPS has a modern, because GURPS has everything, but other than that? We play TTRPGs to get away from the world we live in for a time. Making sure you have a certain minimum distance helps with the appeal. I've bought PF2 books, and I suspect I'll buy more. I've never bought Starfinder books, but SF2 is looking pretty shiny to me. I'll likely buy at least one or two of those at some point. A PF2-system Modern, though? There's not a lot of appeal there. There just isn't... and I don't think it's just me. D20 Modern didn't exactly fly off the shelves from what I can recall.
Third, stitching together that history would be hard, and it would get ugly. Trying to come up with a future history that would go from the crazy-quilt that PF2 has now to a coherent modern-like world would be messy. It would take quite a lot of creative work. It would be mandatory, because maintaining a degree of coherence and integrity int eh world would demand it, but it would offer almost nothing to the actual play experience and it would severely constrain what could be done with the PF2 timeline going forward. "Spend a lot of effort so that you can make things harder for yourself" isn't a draw, you know?
Fourth... politics. Questions like "Should we allow adventures about stabbing rapist slavers in the face?" have already raised some moderately ugly debates. (Thankfully, the sides were "Yes, because I experience stabbing rapist slavers in the face as good clean morally uncomplicated fun" vs "No, because I seriously do not need to have any more rape or slavery in my life, even at a remove or two", but still.) Pull things closer and closer to modern day, and the political issues and possibilities for serious divisiveness just start coming out of the woodwork all over the place. It would get so much worse. Paizo doesn't need that. Heck, I don't need that.
Now, if someone wants to put together an Infinite answer to this? More power to them. I hope they do well... but part of what makes that okay is because coming from Infinite, Paizo isn't responsible for it. That takes the pressure off of a number of these in a number of ways. A 3PP isn't going to rouse up anything like as much unpleasant drek from wherever they stand on the fourth, because people just won't care as much. Nothing they do for the third is going to put chains on PF2 going forward, because they don't have that kind of authority, and everyone knows it. It'll almost certainly diverge, and no one will blame them when it does. For the first and second? Well, good luck, really.
But yea. For Paizo, trying to build a Modern system... not really worth it. The Gap is there for a reason.
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For those interested in using some of the mechanics in a more modern context, Jason Bulmahn has Hopefinder on Pathfinder Infinite, a near-future zombie apocalypse hack with some interesting mechanical choices too!
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I still say they need a Modernfinder game dealing with modern times and near future to tie the settings together. This may be problematic with the Gap, though.
This talk of compatibility has gotten me dusting off my old Chrono Trigger style time hopping campaign that I had in mind during d20 times, but rejected due to fundamental differences between 3.5, d20 modern, and d20 Star Wars. I know Paizo can do this better.
A game system that handles several eras reminds me of GURPS, the Generic Universal RolePlaying System by Steve Jackson Games. It is a good system, a little too detail-oriented for my taste but my wife really likes it. And it feels fragmented, with several setting that should not mix, such as not mixing superheroes with medieval fantasy adventurers.
However, a modern-setting Pathfinder, let me call it Streetfinder, would be the same Golarion setting as Pathfinder but a century or two later than the current PF2 period. We already have Alkenstar in the Mana Wastes for acting out the Old West, middle and late 1800s in Earth history, so Golarion has a foundation for approaching modern times. Thus, Streetfinder could avoid fragmentation across incompatible genres by sticking to a single modern history for Golarion. It would have modern gadgets but also magic for those willing to study it.
However, Pathfinder is built on a combat system. I think Starfinder is too, but I haven't played Starfinder yet. Combat is appropriate for a wild frontier, but a modern setting is civilized, so combat means a war or a police shootout. War is too large scale for character-driven roleplaying, and a shootout means that something has gone wrong with either a criminal enterprise or police crime prevention. Streetfinder could still have thrilling adventures, such as a spy thriller, a detective drama, or a rescue operation, but it would need more robust non-combat encounters, such as escape via car chase or extinguishing a forest fire.
As for the Gap in history that begins...
That's basically what I'm hoping for, in the GURPS analogy. I have the same problem with GURPS, but I really like the chassis of PF2E for running a game.
As far as combat and out of combat encounters...I agree, for this to work, a hypothetical Streetfinder would need to add a more robust non-combat system, which I think Paizo could do on the bones of the system.
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However, Pathfinder is built on a combat system. I think Starfinder is too, but I haven't played Starfinder yet. Combat is appropriate for a wild frontier, but a modern setting is civilized, so combat means a war or a police shootout. War is too large scale for character-driven roleplaying, and a shootout means that something has gone wrong with either a criminal enterprise or police crime prevention. Streetfinder could still have thrilling adventures, such as a spy thriller, a detective drama, or a rescue operation, but it would need more robust non-combat encounters, such as escape via car chase or extinguishing a forest fire.
Yes, Starfinder is just as combat-rule-oriented as Pathfinder. Starfinder can handle about anything. There is a vehicle race adventure. There are several music-focused adventures. In one, you're the band. In others, you're working backstage. Both of those have combat, but both would play just fine without it.
I think both Starfinder and Pathfinder core rules and subsystems can handle non-combat adventures just fine. Pathfinder is likely even better at it, with its clearly defined modes of play and extra feat slots. The problem is martial classes lacking skill slots aren't good at anything but combat. There's a misconception that just because the rules are 75% combat options, it can't handle non-combat well. It might take hundreds of pages to describe all the combat options, but the bluff skill covers all the lies you can conceive of.
PF2 also already has Skill challenges including Vehicle chases. I see no reason that SF2 wouldn't have something identical, equivalent, or better. It certainly wouldn't have something worse or absent entirely.
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As much as I'm fascinated by the Gap I hope it's never lifted. What I think would be interesting to do with the Gap is have an AP that starts on day 0 after the Gap. The entire population and all records being erased would be one of the craziest events ever to RP through.
A lot of text about Pathfinder, Starfinder, and 'Modern'
Firstly, d20 modern ruled. Second, I wouldn't be surprised if you could squeeze a modern game out of starfinder rules by hacking away certain things, and grafting on others.
I realize that Paizo is now fully committed to Pathfinder = Galorion / Galorion = Pathfinder*... but I would still like to see a generic, modern, PF2 rules-system application to a modern setting that would help facilitate some 'gritty'/plausible-psuedoscience steampunk type situations, as well as westerns and other period pieces that have firearms.
*(I would be much happier if the core rule books were as setting neutral and setting generic as possible, with a separate book that served as the "golarion setting guide". D&D 3.0 did this with Faerun and Eberron)
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As much as I'm fascinated by the Gap I hope it's never lifted. What I think would be interesting to do with the Gap is have an AP that starts on day 0 after the Gap. The entire population and all records being erased would be one of the craziest events ever to RP through.
The gap has a meta role that probably means it's never going away. Like the purpose is "the Starfinder team doesn't need to be filled in on what the Pathfinder team is planning on doing in an AP 2.5 years from now to avoid conflicting with it." Likewise so that the Pathfinder team doesn't need to set up the dominos for how the Starfinder team has set up their world.
So like the Starfinder team doesn't have to worry about if Arazni kills Urgathoa and supplants her, and the Pathfinder team doesn't need to worry about "what exactly happened to Rovagug."
I still say they need a Modernfinder game dealing with modern times and near future to tie the settings together. This may be problematic with the Gap, though.
This talk of compatibility has gotten me dusting off my old Chrono Trigger style time hopping campaign that I had in mind during d20 times, but rejected due to fundamental differences between 3.5, d20 modern, and d20 Star Wars. I know Paizo can do this better.
I dunno, I don't think there is a niche for modernfinder since I think most folks interested in that sort of game would want to use it with Earth, not a 20th century version of Golarion.
They can always get really gonzo with a modern setting and tackle it from left field. Weird alternate dimensions, isolated demi-planes, an evil rewrite of the world by a newly ascended Hastur. Lots of weird things you could do with it.
Rovagug. Hm. My take: Either Rovagug is still imprisoned in the post-Gap Golarion, wherever it is, or post-Gap Golarion is a pretty bleak post-Apocalypse place. Again, wherever it is. My best guess is it's the former.
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As much as I'm fascinated by the Gap I hope it's never lifted. What I think would be interesting to do with the Gap is have an AP that starts on day 0 after the Gap. The entire population and all records being erased would be one of the craziest events ever to RP through.The gap has a meta role that probably means it's never going away. Like the purpose is "the Starfinder team doesn't need to be filled in on what the Pathfinder team is planning on doing in an AP 2.5 years from now to avoid conflicting with it." Likewise so that the Pathfinder team doesn't need to set up the dominos for how the Starfinder team has set up their world.
So like the Starfinder team doesn't have to worry about if Arazni kills Urgathoa and supplants her, and the Pathfinder team doesn't need to worry about "what exactly happened to Rovagug."
I think that was one of the intended purposes when the Gap was created. Going forward with the announcement of Starfindr 2e being compatible with PF2e I highly suspect the creation of the rules and lore team announced back on March 14, 2023 was created to better manage lore between both games to be consistent. Having the Gap is still useful, preventing having to create more lore to fill the gap.
Sure, the two teams are going to talk to each other better. But "this isn't the case in Starfinder" shouldn't be a compelling reason for the Pathfinder team to not do something cool that changes the world in a dramatic fashion.
Like supposedly in the big event that's coming they're going to kill (at least) one of the core 20 deities. The Gap allows us to leave that entity alive in Starfinder and means the Pathfinder team doesn't need to worry about "wait, was this deity ever used in Starfinder, if so we can't kill them."
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Second... modern games just don't sell as well. They don't, and they haven't. GURPS has a modern, because GURPS has everything, but other than that? We play TTRPGs to get away from the world we live in for a time. Making sure you have a certain minimum distance helps with the appeal. I've bought PF2 books, and I suspect I'll buy more. I've never bought Starfinder books, but SF2 is looking pretty shiny to me. I'll likely buy at least one or two of those at some point. A PF2-system Modern, though? There's not a lot of appeal there. There just isn't... and I don't think it's just me. D20 Modern didn't exactly fly off the shelves from what I can recall.
Vampire: The Masquerade and all those other systems which were part of the World of Darkness setting say "Hi!"
And, yeah, they aren't very popular anymore, but not because people stopped wanting to play in the modern world with fantasy elements, but because White Wolf screwed up by literally blowing up their very popular setting and replacing it with a not very good new version.
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Vampire: The Masquerade and all those other systems which were part of the World of Darkness setting say "Hi!"
And, yeah, they aren't very popular anymore, but not because people stopped wanting to play in the modern world with fantasy elements, but because White Wolf screwed up by literally blowing up their very popular setting and replacing it with a not very good new version.
Oh, they were fantastically popular, but they also were wildly divergent from modern-day cultural norms. Like, technically they were in a world at a more or less modern level of techology, but the politics that actually mattered was all werewolf septs and mage chantries and the courts of vampire princes and so forth. The society that looked vaguely like the modern world was a thin veneer that you might plug into for resources, but you didn't really care about.
By contrast, a golarion-version of modern would have the "normal" culture be the one that mattered. The part that was trying to be modern would be the part that you'd be interacting with mostly. No masquerade to hide behind. That changes things.
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Second... modern games just don't sell as well. They don't, and they haven't. GURPS has a modern, because GURPS has everything, but other than that? We play TTRPGs to get away from the world we live in for a time. Making sure you have a certain minimum distance helps with the appeal. I've bought PF2 books, and I suspect I'll buy more. I've never bought Starfinder books, but SF2 is looking pretty shiny to me. I'll likely buy at least one or two of those at some point. A PF2-system Modern, though? There's not a lot of appeal there. There just isn't... and I don't think it's just me. D20 Modern didn't exactly fly off the shelves from what I can recall.Vampire: The Masquerade and all those other systems which were part of the World of Darkness setting say "Hi!"
And, yeah, they aren't very popular anymore, but not because people stopped wanting to play in the modern world with fantasy elements, but because White Wolf screwed up by literally blowing up their very popular setting and replacing it with a not very good new version.
The popularity in recent years of the urban fantasy genre, which is sort of built from the tropes employed by the World of Darkness, is also evidence there is a market for that genre.
Sadly the Harry Dresden RPG doesn't seem to be that good.
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Sadly the Harry Dresden RPG doesn't seem to be that good.
Depends on what you're looking for. I enjoy a tactical game (Hence why I'm a Pathfinder 2e player), so it wasn't for me, but for someone who liked more of a rules-light game it might be perfect.
Dresden is a perfect example of where this could excel, though. All of the Pathfinder monsters to pull from? Trolls, Ogres, Ghouls, Vampires...right out of Bestiary 1. Admittedly, Butcher's take is a bit different from Paizo's take, but I can easily see pulling in horrible monsters from all over.
You could also pull something from the other side, like an alien invasion where the heroes start out at our level of tech and are being invaded by an alien with a Starfinder level of tech.
The popularity in recent years of the urban fantasy genre, which is sort of built from the tropes employed by the World of Darkness, is also evidence there is a market for that genre.Second... modern games just don't sell as well. They don't, and they haven't. GURPS has a modern, because GURPS has everything, but other than that? We play TTRPGs to get away from the world we live in for a time. Making sure you have a certain minimum distance helps with the appeal. I've bought PF2 books, and I suspect I'll buy more. I've never bought Starfinder books, but SF2 is looking pretty shiny to me. I'll likely buy at least one or two of those at some point. A PF2-system Modern, though? There's not a lot of appeal there. There just isn't... and I don't think it's just me. D20 Modern didn't exactly fly off the shelves from what I can recall.Vampire: The Masquerade and all those other systems which were part of the World of Darkness setting say "Hi!"
And, yeah, they aren't very popular anymore, but not because people stopped wanting to play in the modern world with fantasy elements, but because White Wolf screwed up by literally blowing up their very popular setting and replacing it with a not very good new version.
I have noticed at least a couple of faces I recognize from the pf2e community also getting into Chronicles of Darkness lately, now that you mention it.
Sadly the Harry Dresden RPG doesn't seem to be that good.
There's all sorts of stuff in systems like FATE or PbtA/FitD. They're designed to be flexible and cheap. The massive baggage that comes along with being modern-day is a boon there, because those games aren't providing a lot of background to begin with. There were three core rulebooks printed for the Dresden Files RPG, and then sometime later a streamlined and condensed standalone version... and that's it. The whole point of games liek that is that you can get your little niche RPG at a price point that actually makes sense for a little niche RPG.
If Paizo tried to put together Streetfinder with "little niche RPG" numbers, the result would be a massive disappointment to anyone who thought they knew what they were getting. That's the kind of thing we could get out of an Infinite treatment of the game.
Like, based on the best numbers I can see, Evil Hat is less than a fifth the size of Paizo, and their games are pretty much all fire and forget. For stuff like that, yes, you can make money in the smaller niches (like various forms of modern, or post-apocalyptic, or Thirsty Sword Lesbians, or...). That's not what people are asking for when they're asking for Golarion Modern, though.