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Correct. As long as Golem's antimagic works the way it does now and not the way it worked before, your only options now with a party of only kineticists is:
- Have the right element to target a weakness
- Somehow convince the golem that you have a vip membership card to whatever nightclub and/or you are trying to get into
- Turn around, give up on your adventure and start a nightclub somewhere else
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Some people suspect that "Golem antimagic" is a thing that's gone with the remaster.
Until now no designers talked about golems but due how golem anti-magic mechanics are linked to D&D this could happen or even golems may not enter in new bestiaries.
But for now, Golems vs Kineticists is:
Flawless victory!!!
Perfect!!!
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A party of Kineticists that does not cover the different elemental damage types ? How likely is this ? Why play as a Kineticists-only party if it does not cover all elemental damage types ?
Unless you want to play a party comprising The Human Torch and The Human Torch (the other one) and Toro and Sunfire and Firestar.
But then you should expect some trouble with beings that do not fear fire.
Some people suspect that "Golem antimagic" is a thing that's gone with the remaster.
Yeah, I'm one of those people. And I actually like golem antimagic, despite it's weird grey areas that need ironing out. But it seems safer to remove it than to fix it at this point.
But you'll have some issues if you're running an older AP still.
I liked golem antimagic in 1e honestly. Now it just makes me angry.
Swalow whole also makes me angry because the big turtle with a big shell that gives it resistance also apparently has a shell around its stomach too.
But I am getting off topic.
I'll be glad ifgolem antimagic is gone, or modified, or replaced by something more specific.
I suggest a new strategy: let the golem win.
But what if instead of directly attacking the Golem, you don't use other tricks to disable it? Shaping earth into a hole, making difficult terrain, I think a little creativity can at least help.It's like saying you can't beat Deadpool just because he regenerates, when you can trap him and leave him in a very isolated place.
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As far as I can tell kinetesist's don't have anything that works on golems expect hoping they have the right element. As everything they do counts as magic ?
I suppose this wouldn't be a major problem expect I am planning to be part of a all kinetesist party and I was wondering what to do if we encounter a golem ?
I'm assuming that Kineticist can still use weapons, yes? At least simple weapons.
So I would expect that they would do the same thing that a party of all Sorcerers/Oracles/Psychics are going to do if they don't happen to have picked the right spells during level-up to target the weaknesses of a particular golem.
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Kinetic blasts are a very practical replacement for weapons 99% of the time (any time without golems) so it comes down to how many people are going to carry round fully upgraded weapons for that one in a hundred encounter.
And Sorcerers, and Psychics do?
Battle Oracles probably do. But other types may not.
But the point is that even if Kineticist is crippled hard in the fight against a golem, they aren't the only class that has that happen to them.
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I think specific golems can retain broad immunity to magic (Nex's Quantium Golems for example seem good candidates for this) much like how specific dragons can still be red and breathe fire (like Choral).
Generally speaking it would make more sense for Golems to be immune or highly resistant to one type with weakness to a different type. Like based on the Frankenstein story it seems like a Flesh golem should resist electricity and be vulnerable to fire.
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But the point is that even if Kineticist is crippled hard in the fight against a golem, they aren't the only class that has that happen to them.
So? Multiple classes being a victim of horrible game design isn't really a defense of those mechanics.
Why wouldn't the kineticist's physical attacks work?
I can't imagine any logic you could use to justify their physical attacks failing that wouldn't also apply to the fighter's magical weapon.
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Why wouldn't the kineticist's physical attacks work?
I can't imagine any logic you could use to justify their physical attacks failing that wouldn't also apply to the fighter's magical weapon.
The blast is impulse traited and impulses say that they're magical and even though they aren't spells they are affected by some things that affect spells including abilities that protect against spells among others
Why wouldn't the kineticist's physical attacks work?
They would, but the kineticist has spellcaster weapon proficiencies and no other incentives to really carry weapons. More or less the same reason you probably don't expect a sorcerer to just use a greatsword there either.
It isn't like using a simple weapon on a low strength character is a particularly good way to hurt a golem either because of their physical resistance. You'd be better off Aiding and supporting your allies. At least the kineticist might have high strength though.
But what if instead of
directly attacking the Golem, you don't use other tricks to disable it? Shaping earth into a hole, making difficult terrain, I think a little creativity can at least help.It's like saying you can't beat Deadpool just because he regenerates, when you can trap him and leave him in a very isolated place.
It may be an option if you have the right impulses. But honestly if you're going that route you probably don't need to use impulses at all. Golems are often insanely easy to retreat from because they are only programmed to pursue so far. And you can potentially cheese them once you establish the boundary of their territory.
Why wouldn't the kineticist's physical attacks work?They would, but the kineticist has spellcaster weapon proficiencies and no other incentives to really carry weapons. More or less the same reason you probably don't expect a sorcerer to just use a greatsword there either.
To be clear, I'm talking about dealing bludgeoning damage with earth blast, slashing damage with air blast, or piercing damage with an infused weapon fire blast, and the like; not thrusting with a spear.
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To be clear, I'm talking about dealing bludgeoning damage with earth blast, slashing damage with air blast, or piercing damage with an infused weapon fire blast, and the like; not thrusting with a spear.Why wouldn't the kineticist's physical attacks work?They would, but the kineticist has spellcaster weapon proficiencies and no other incentives to really carry weapons. More or less the same reason you probably don't expect a sorcerer to just use a greatsword there either.
Those are magical abilities so golems are immune to them just like they are to something like telekinetic projectile.
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There's a creature in the Rage of Elements bestiary called the Brass Bastion that is 1:1 the Brass Golem from 1e.... But it's got a different name, and instead of the entire antimagic mechanic, it's got spell resist 15 (except water). So it's very likely that the days of golems are over.
I mean, Paizo is going to have golems. Golems are a thing from Jewish folklore, and TSR didn't invent them. Heck, Paizo's mascot is a golem.
We might see the classic "D&D golems" (Clay, Iron, Flesh, Stone, Fire, etc.) go away though. Well, maybe not the clay one since that's the one from folklore.
Though I suppose that a thing Paizo could do to both "differentiate their golems from the D&D one" *and* be more respectful to the original folklore is reserve "Golem" for constructs that are intelligent enough to like carry on a conversation.
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I believe Ravingdork isn't asking mechanically why this is (the answer there is "primal keyword = magic = you lose"). Instead, they're asking why (lore wise) when someone throws a boulder at the golem it may or may not bounce off depending on whether or not the boulder was fired from a trebuchet or from a kineticist's fingertips.
Oh yeah golems wreak havoc on the lore by existing and there's no real explanation.
Some people suspect that "Golem antimagic" is a thing that's gone with the remaster.
Why? It works fine.
Correct. As long as Golem's antimagic works the way it does now and not the way it worked before, your only options now with a party of only kineticists is:
- Have the right element to target a weakness
- Somehow convince the golem that you have a vip membership card to whatever nightclub and/or you are trying to get into
- Turn around, give up on your adventure and start a nightclub somewhere else
All your defensive and utility abilities will still work.
Every playstyle in the game has a weakness, why should the Kineticist not have one. Bring out weapons. Or have a backup element.
Golems are easybeats once you find the right attack.
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Some people suspect that "Golem antimagic" is a thing that's gone with the remaster.Why? It works fine.
Golem antimagic as it exists in PF2 is very much a product of D&D, so with how cautious Paizo is being about product identity it's not an entirely unreasonable guess that it might go away.
It's also just a really bad mechanic in general.
Every playstyle in the game has a weakness, why should the Kineticist not have one.
Kineticists don't magically become characters without weaknesses if you don't use golems.
And "having a weakness" and "having a fight where you may not be able to participate at all" are fundamentally different things.
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Or have a backup element.
Doesn't seem likely to work since you're going to need specific elements (and maybe versatile elements) to even do damage to a golem. Like if you want to damage an Iron Golem, that backup element needs to be water (plus you need versatile blasts). For a Stone Golem you need fire (plus versatile blasts). Is every Kineticist going to grab both water and fire?
Plus if you're fighting, say, a Glass Golem or an Alchemical Golem? You can't do damage with any impulse.
Golem antimagic as it exists in PF2 is very much a product of D&D, so with how cautious Paizo is being about product identity it's not an entirely unreasonable guess that it might go away.
It's also just a really bad mechanic in general.
Plus, since the Kineticist was developed parallel with the remaster rules, if Golem Antimagic wasn't something they were dropping because "that's definitely a D&D thing, not from folklore" then they probably would have considered "this class *really* struggle against golem antimagic" and would have given them some tools for this.
Plus, it's not like Golem Antimagic makes sense to stop every Kineticist thing. Like "A packed cloud of thundering boulders descends from the sky" or "A massive sphere of rock explodes, unleashing a cataclysm of falling debris and deadly shrapnel" seems like a thing that should hurt almost anything that isn't like incorporeal. Golem antimagic stopping like "drop a big rock on it" is very silly.
There's a creature in the Rage of Elements bestiary called the Brass Bastion that is 1:1 the Brass Golem from 1e.... But it's got a different name, and instead of the entire antimagic mechanic, it's got spell resist 15 (except water). So it's very likely that the days of golems are over.
What's its level? To we get an ideal of how much resistance per level.
I am once again asking for the OP to use the proper spelling of the class name, otherwise threads like these won't pop up in the search.
I am once again asking for the OP to use the proper spelling of the class name, otherwise threads like these won't pop up in the search.
People have been misspelling "Rogue" as "Rouge" for years now, I don't think Kinetesist or Kinestesist or what have you is going away anytime soon.
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I am once again asking for the OP to use the proper spelling of the class name, otherwise threads like these won't pop up in the search.People have been misspelling "Rogue" as "Rouge" for years now, I don't think Kinetesist or Kinestesist or what have you is going away anytime soon.
Yes, but by now, we know that you have to search for both "kobold rogue" and "kabold rouge" if you want to find what you want. This is less obvious :D
Those are magical abilities so golems are immune to them just like they are to something like telekinetic projectile.To be clear, I'm talking about dealing bludgeoning damage with earth blast, slashing damage with air blast, or piercing damage with an infused weapon fire blast, and the like; not thrusting with a spear.Why wouldn't the kineticist's physical attacks work?They would, but the kineticist has spellcaster weapon proficiencies and no other incentives to really carry weapons. More or less the same reason you probably don't expect a sorcerer to just use a greatsword there either.
So golems just ignore entangle, wall spells, and the like in your games too? If I magically make a hole under the golem's feet, it just hovers over it?
Balderdash! That doesn't make any sense and breaks verisimilitude 6 ways to Sunday!
If that's the way it's intended to work, I'll not be sad to see golem immunity disappear in the remaster. Too much of a headache trying to make sense of what logically would/should work, and what doesn't.
Who needs those kinds of arguments in their games? (And you KNOW there will be arguments, as players want to see their abilities work, and GMs want golems to be unique.)
I believe Ravingdork isn't asking mechanically why this is (the answer there is "primal keyword = magic = you lose"). Instead, they're asking why (lore wise) when someone throws a boulder at the golem it may or may not bounce off depending on whether or not the boulder was fired from a trebuchet or from a kineticist's fingertips.
It's both, really. I acknowledge what the rules say, and proclaim that they don't make any conceptual sense in this instance and should be ignored and/or changed.
What about a pit spell that uses a Reflex save to determine whether or not a creature falls into it?
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There's a creature in the Rage of Elements bestiary called the Brass Bastion that is 1:1 the Brass Golem from 1e.... But it's got a different name, and instead of the entire antimagic mechanic, it's got spell resist 15 (except water). So it's very likely that the days of golems are over.
Great catch here. And it looks like the brass golem was 1. a Paizo original, and 2. Not yet converted to PF2. So it makes sense for this to be one they bother remaking. It is legally safer and creatively lets them still create a brand new monster for GMs to use, all while signalling how to Remaster old golems: remove magic immunity and give the golem Resistance to spells (except to the type which used to damage them) equal to their physical resistance.
I don't find this new version as interesting for encounters, but this is an incredibly elegant solution. It creates more parity between casters, kineticists, and martials: both have to punch through the same resistance unless they are packing the right tool for the job. Kineticists will actually have a pretty solid amount of overlap with those tools, too. The brass bastion resistance can be bypassed by water, but a fire or metal extract element will work too.
Given this all but confirms golem antimagic is dead, I wouldn't expend much energy arguing over it unless your GM is refusing to acknowledge the new version.
What about a pit spell that uses a Reflex save to determine whether or not a creature falls into it?
Are there even pit spells in 2e? I tried finding some but I couldn't, which makes me sad because throwing people in holes is a real knee slapper.
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While I understand the appeal of sticking to D&D golem roots, the PF2 golem antimagic was one of the very few wholly unintuitive and difficult to apply in practice things in the game.
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Some people suspect that "Golem antimagic" is a thing that's gone with the remaster.Why? It works fine.Golem antimagic as it exists in PF2 is very much a product of D&D, so with how cautious Paizo is being about product identity it's not an entirely unreasonable guess that it might go away.
It's also just a really bad mechanic in general.
Golem anti magic is a poorly worded section of the rules that is often mis read. I reckon maybe 90% of games won't get it technically correct. So it should get fixed. But it is hard to be sure as there are a number of broken things Paizo have refused to acknowledge or fix.
Every playstyle in the game has a weakness, why should the Kineticist not have one.Kineticists don't magically become characters without weaknesses if you don't use golems.
And "having a weakness" and "having a fight where you may not be able to participate at all" are fundamentally different things.
Really... my players just fought a will o wisp. The casters were almost totally usless. They just didn't have the right spells. AFAICT being almost useless can happen a fair bit in the game.
Yes but the fundamental flaw is in the kineticist where it insists their abilities are all magic. Running into an antimagic monster is a trope.
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I would be thrilled if golem antimagic was changed to be more like that creature in rage of elements. Still a big hurdle but not a complete shutdown to what you may have built your character around.
So? Multiple classes being a victim of horrible game design isn't really a defense of those mechanics.
But the point is that even if Kineticist is crippled hard in the fight against a golem, they aren't the only class that has that happen to them.
I'm not trying to defend the mechanic. I'm arguing against the idea that this is some new and unexpected interaction that dropped on us with Rage of Elements. All spellcasters get nerfed hard by a golem unless they happen to have just the right spell for it. But if a spontaneous spellcaster didn't scry ahead in the campaign far enough to pick the right spell during level up, or a prepared spellcaster didn't know or prepare the right spell that morning, then they spend the entire fight feeling useless. This is a day 0 bug.
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Some people suspect that "Golem antimagic" is a thing that's gone with the remaster.Why? It works fine.Golem antimagic as it exists in PF2 is very much a product of D&D, so with how cautious Paizo is being about product identity it's not an entirely unreasonable guess that it might go away.
It's also just a really bad mechanic in general.
Golem anti magic is a poorly worded section of the rules that is often mis read. I reckon maybe 90% of games won't get it technically correct. So it should get fixed. But it is hard to be sure as there are a number of broken things Paizo have refused to acknowledge or fix.
Every playstyle in the game has a weakness, why should the Kineticist not have one.Kineticists don't magically become characters without weaknesses if you don't use golems.
And "having a weakness" and "having a fight where you may not be able to participate at all" are fundamentally different things.
Really... my players just fought a will o wisp. The casters were almost totally usless. They just didn't have the right spells. AFAICT being almost useless can happen a fair bit in the game.
Yes but the fundamental flaw is in the kineticist where it insists their abilities are all magic. Running into an antimagic monster is a trope.
Again, at this point I think we can be 99% sure golem antimagic is gone and what they are replacing it with. (The name golem might be gone as well, too.) I'm not sure if Paizo can publish an official "conversion guide" for legal purposes but their methodology is so straightforward that converting older golems will be a cinch. Just use the instructions I bolded above.
If this isn't the new "golem" I will eat my hat.
There's a creature in the Rage of Elements bestiary called the Brass Bastion that is 1:1 the Brass Golem from 1e.... But it's got a different name, and instead of the entire antimagic mechanic, it's got spell resist 15 (except water). So it's very likely that the days of golems are over.Great catch here. And it looks like the brass golem was 1. a Paizo original, and 2. Not yet converted to PF2. So it makes sense for this to be one they bother remaking. It is legally safer and creatively lets them still create a brand new monster for GMs to use, all while signalling how to Remaster old golems: remove magic immunity and give the golem Resistance to spells (except to the type which used to damage them) equal to their physical resistance.
I don't find this new version as interesting for encounters, but this is an incredibly elegant solution. It creates more parity between casters, kineticists, and martials: both have to punch through the same resistance unless they are packing the right tool for the job. Kineticists will actually have a pretty solid amount of overlap with those tools, too. The brass bastion resistance can be bypassed by water, but a fire or metal extract element will work too.
Given this all but confirms golem antimagic is dead, I wouldn't expend much energy arguing over it unless your GM is refusing to acknowledge the new version.
Love it! I would be quite pleased if that were the new paradigm.