How could this be done? I'm looking for classes, archtypes, if I would need to multiclass, feats, ext? Some had said arcane trickster, others have said rogue with monk archtype, some said laughing shadow magus, rogue with thamaturgist, but I'm looking for something as close to the 1E class as possible?
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As also stated in the previous tree, an archetype might work better then a full out class
So lets get to archetyping
Ninja Dedication:
Needs: Stealth trained
Gives: Stealth expert, (scaling?) Proficiency in simple and martial weapons with the concealable and either the agile or finesse tag as well as shuriken and the combat grapnel
Additional Feats:
Assassin Archetype: Expert Backstabber, Surprise Attack, Sneak Attacker
Rogue: Trap Finder, Tumble Behind, Quick Draw, Battle Assessment, Poison Wepaon, Far Throw, Subtle Shank, Fantastic Leap, SPring From Shadows, Implausible Infiltration
Monk: Ki-Rush, Dancing Leaf, Abundant Step, Water Step, Wall Run, Wind Jump, Sense Ki
Thats already a good choice that makes one very ninja-y but we need a few custom ones
in no particular order with levels not attached and possible in for a balance change:
Hail of stars:
Flourish, 1 Action, attack twice with Shuriken
Shuriken Expert:
Shurken gain the concealable trait and +5ft range
Strike from Shadows:
Needs hail of stars, flourish, 3 actions while concealed
Attack two enemies, one with a shuriken at -2 penalty, if it hits you can make one melee strike without penalty, you dont break concealment
Fulu Mastery: You learn the crafting recipes of 3 lvl 3 Fulus
during your daily preperations you can prepare 2 fulus of your level or lower for free
Deep Cover: you gain the Additional Lore general feat with a Lore of a craft of your choice (agriculture, sailor, smith, etc) You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to deception to appear as someone practicing that craft, the skillbonus increases to +2 when you are master in stealth
You increase that bonus by further +1 if you have been working in that profession for at least a week in the same general area
Took a wrong turn:
Once per day when you were caught by someone in a place you should not be, treat the outcome of your deception check to get out of the situation as one degree better
Rags for Silk
needs deep cover
You gain courtly graces as a skill feat, you get your circumstance bonus from deep cover to pretend to be a noble from a far-off land
Explosive Shuriken:
Grants an explosive Shuriken focus spell and a focus point
1 action, 30ft range, 1d4 piercing +1d4 fire damage per 2 spell levels with splash
What is a fulu?
All fulus have the fulu and consumable traits. Fulus also have a tradition trait—either arcane, divine, occult or primal—determined by the magical tradition of its creator. For example, a fulu created by a priest would have the divine trait, whereas a witch who dabbles in fate might create a fulu with the occult trait. Some fulus also have the talisman trait, if they work similarly to talismans (such as being affixed to a suit of armor, a shield, or a weapon.
Each fulu's stat block indicates the type of item or creature it can be affixed to. Affixing or removing a fulu requires using the Affix a Fulu activity, or the Affix a Talisman action instead if the fulu is also a talisman.
About do a Ninja archetype.
The main problem of a Ninja archetype is that pop culture ninja are widely versatile mixing characteristics of rogue like martial proficiency (due their usage of agile/finesse weapons) with high precision damage + high perception and stealth abilities + spellcasting (hand-seals that do magical things) + some innate abilities + martial arts + toxicologist/alchemist.
The point is there isn't enough space in a archetype to put all this. IMO this requires a dedicated class (but many people here don't like the idea of have a regionalized class).
Anyway instead of create a new homebrew archetype my suggestion to do a reskined Eldritch Trickster Rogue + Shadowcaster/Shadowdancer archetypes in a Free Archetype game.
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But I said I wanted to do the things the 1ST ED class could do, so its not based on some pop culture nebulous idea. Its based on a class pathfinder already had.
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The 1e class was a variation of the rogur modified by exactly those Pop culture ideas
Also, 'a class Pathfinder already had' is a weak Argument
Cavalier became an archetype, warpriest a cleric subclass, thaumaturge is a whole different thing from it's 1e counterpart, Magus and Oracle got heavily reworked, gunslinger became (kinda) balanced, Paladin became the Champion, Monks became actually good and don't get ne started in the kineticist
Pf2e has the same roots, but it is a vastly different system then 1e
If you actually want to homebrew a Ninja class, Start where 1e started - take the rogue, throw stuff out and then start adding new stuff
I don't agree at all that its a weak argument whatsoever. Plus I was saying that as far as what I wanted to be able to do. Can't really homebrew it all that much and make a totally new class as I'm doing organized play.
Then you are in the wrong subforum
Suggestion: Go to the advice Forum, describe the concept of your Ninja as precise as possible, reference pf1 skills where you must/can and there people can probably help you
My bets would be that you end Up making a rogue, maybe a Monk :P
Fighter with Rogue Archtype could work for a more swordsman ninja than a sneaky one.
But I said I wanted to do the things the 1ST ED class could do, so its not based on some pop culture nebulous idea. Its based on a class pathfinder already had.
Sorry. If you want to make a Ninja similar to PF1 you find that rogues already does 90% of it.
Poison is covered by Poison Weapon feats while sneak attacks and uncanny dodge are covered by class features and no trace and hidden master is covered by many high level class feats like Blank Slate, Cognitive Loophole...
Ki pool as used in PF1 ninja simply doesn't make sense in PF2, many of that abilities are already passive to rogues or uses actions as resources instead of have a resource pool.
The only thing that rogue class don't cover IMO are tricks. Not because many aren't already covered like Slow Reaction that is currently covered by Tactical Debilitations, but because many ki tricks are more covered by alchemist mutagens/venoms/bombs than monk's ki spells.
So it will depend from what do you want that you ninja will do but probably just take a rogue or a rogue + alchemist dedication will do the job.
At the end of the day, PF2 due to the combination of archetypes gives much more options for pop culture ninja-like abilities that PF1 does not cover than it loses PF1 ninja abilities.
I'll have to look at alchemist then. What about Arcane Trickster or Thamaturge dedication?
Are there any monk builds that use weapons with the stances?
I'll have to look at alchemist then. What about Arcane Trickster or Thamaturge dedication?
I don't know if you are talking about Spell Trickster or Scroll Tricster.
About Thaumaturge dedication isn't bad but its flavor is more like a supernatural investigator than ninja abilities. May make sense if you are planing some kind of supernatural ninja but doesn't have any relationship to PF1 version.
About monks there are stances that uses weapons like Monastic Archer Stance, Shooting Stars Stance and Peafowl Stance and Whirling Blade Stance.
Arcane Trickster. Its a Rogue racket in Advanced Players Guide.
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We still have no idea what exactly you are after in the Ninja class, and given that you played PF1 Ninja only once at 1st level, you don't seem to be sure about that either. A "rogue but jumps a lot" is one thing, a "stealthy alchemist" is another, a "person that can turn invisible and sneak attack" is another, a "spy and deceiver" is yet another, a "spellcasting guerilla" is yet another, and they all speak to some historical or pop-culture expression of ninja that can be emulated in different ways.
To make life a bit easier for you, PF1 Ninja was a core Rogue with all the shortcomings of core Rogue (crap accuracy and defenses, anything it could do with skills/tricks a caster could do better, damage output miles behind Slayer/Bard/Alchemist) with its only advantage being able to go invisible easily and sneak attack without having to depend on flanking buddy as much as regular Rogue did. This was literally what the class was all about, everything else it had was lackulster or doable by somebody else better.
I think PF2 is much better at providing an enjoyable ninja experience, not the least due to skills being much more powerful, but we need to know what exactly do you want your character to be good at beyond having a "NINJA" written on the character sheet.
Only advantages? Are you kidding? The ninja could use poison at first level and was very good at hiding their tracks, they could do a lot more than simply turn invisible btw and they could also learn rogue tricks as well as their own, I dont feel you have looked much at the class and it's full range of abilities. Very much disagree about casters doing things better as far as things like finding and removing traps plus then you're using up a spell to do that that could of been used for something else...
Arcane Trickster. Its a Rogue racket in Advanced Players Guide.
I mean Eldritch Trickster racket.
Other classes could find traps instead and ninja could still find traps couldn't they, just not as well as a rogue? And theres a lot more things they could do beyond that.
Trapfinding is NOT necessary to disable and find traps. Anyone can do it as long as they have decent skills and perception. Trapfinding ability just gives a bonus to perception and ability to disable magical traps, but magical traps can still be disabled in other ways such as simply casting dispel magic, at least in 1E.
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Only advantages? Are you kidding? The ninja could use poison at first level and was very good at hiding their tracks, they could do a lot more than simply turn invisible btw and they could also learn rogue tricks as well as their own, I dont feel you have looked much at the class and it's full range of abilities. Very much disagree about casters doing things better as far as things like finding and removing traps plus then you're using up a spell to do that that could of been used for something else...
Poison used by PCs in PF1 was a trap option outside a few niche builds that could boost it to the point of being worthy of the investment, and Ninja wasn't one of them. It was simply too slow and saddled with static DC to be used in combat.
Most Ninja/Rogue tricks were weak, situational, or both. Vanishing Trick and Pressure Points were the two good ones, and VT was the only thing that made Ninja really unique and worth playing.
Any caster (and Wis-based casters in particular) were about as good at finding traps as Ninja (Ninja doesn't get trapfinding, remember), and most of the time, casters would disable traps by summoning some poor rabbit or dog and having them die horribly to set the trap off, and if it did reset, have a martial hack it to pieces or do that themselves using spells. Oh, and that summoning spell was cast from a wand, so no slots were expended.
You haven't played ninja in PF1 or seen one played and it shows - you're reading the class, thinking "gee, this ability sounds amazing!" but the fact is that actual PF1 gameplay saw 80% of cool-sounding abilities turn out underwhelming and ineffective. This is why we keep asking just what exactly about the class you find fun and wanted to replicate in PF2, because that would make helping you that much easier.
As also stated in the previous tree, an archetype might work better then a full out class
So lets get to archetyping
Ninja Dedication:
Needs: Stealth trained
Gives: Stealth expert, (scaling?) Proficiency in simple and martial weapons with the concealable and either the agile or finesse tag as well as shuriken and the combat grapnelAdditional Feats:
Assassin Archetype: Expert Backstabber, Surprise Attack, Sneak Attacker
Rogue: Trap Finder, Tumble Behind, Quick Draw, Battle Assessment, Poison Wepaon, Far Throw, Subtle Shank, Fantastic Leap, SPring From Shadows, Implausible Infiltration
Monk: Ki-Rush, Dancing Leaf, Abundant Step, Water Step, Wall Run, Wind Jump, Sense KiThats already a good choice that makes one very ninja-y but we need a few custom ones
in no particular order with levels not attached and possible in for a balance change:Hail of stars:
Flourish, 1 Action, attack twice with ShurikenShuriken Expert:
Shurken gain the concealable trait and +5ft rangeStrike from Shadows:
Needs hail of stars, flourish, 3 actions while concealed
Attack two enemies, one with a shuriken at -2 penalty, if it hits you can make one melee strike without penalty, you dont break concealmentFulu Mastery: You learn the crafting recipes of 3 lvl 3 Fulus
during your daily preperations you can prepare 2 fulus of your level or lower for freeDeep Cover: you gain the Additional Lore general feat with a Lore of a craft of your choice (agriculture, sailor, smith, etc) You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to deception to appear as someone practicing that craft, the skillbonus increases to +2 when you are master in stealth
You increase that bonus by further +1 if you have been working in that profession for at least a week in the same general areaTook a wrong turn:
Once per day when you were caught by someone in a place you should not be, treat the outcome of your deception check to get out of the situation as one degree betterRags for Silk
needs deep cover
You gain courtly...
Is this with Rogue as base class and is it using free archtype? I'm playing in OP so they don't allow free archtype.
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Trapfinding is NOT necessary to disable and find traps. Anyone can do it as long as they have decent skills and perception. Trapfinding ability just gives a bonus to perception and ability to disable magical traps, but magical traps can still be disabled in other ways such as simply casting dispel magic, at least in 1E.
While there's variations of course "simply casting dispel magic" as a general rule doesn't work, since unless stated otherwise traps are "instantaneous" effects. The caster would also have to find the trap, which is where the Trapfiding comes in clutch, those bonuses are useful. And also waste a spell slot. So expect table variation.
Also Rogue can take the Poison Use Rogue Talent, as well as other classes/options that allow it, it's not Ninja specific, nor offers anything valuable at 1st level.
So as far as "advantages" go, Trapfinding runs circles around Poison Use it's not even funny. The party would vastly appreciate the latter over the former.
Is this with Rogue as base class and is it using free archtype? I'm playing in OP so they don't allow free archtype.
You're in the Homebrew section of the forums, so this is something Drongo homebrewed for you. It seems that you don't really have a lot of experience with the PF1 ninja, so let me just make your PF2 ninja build for you.
Barring any actual guidance ("make it like a ninja" is an incredibly vague jumping off point), just do this.
Ancestry: Human
Grab the versatile heritage to pick up an early Fleet to be a touch faster on the battlefield. Using 30 feet of movement is much better for a Stealth-focused character than 25 feet since you could instead move 15 feet while Sneaking rather than 10 feet. You can also grab the Natural Ambition ancestry feat so that you can front load your "ninja" abilities.
Background: Anything, really.
I'll steer you towards a background that grants you something like Cat Fall or Terrain Stalker to further fulfill the fantasy.
Class: Rogue
While I'm opposed to it, I suppose you could play the long game and get the Eldritch Trickster racket (I'd just go Thief and focus on being the damage dealer with Dex). Get a multiclass dedication that gives you access to arcane or occult magic so you can gain access to invisibility. (I dislike this just because "go invisibile" as a goal hardly seems worth all of the investment when you could instead just be good at Stealth and Hiding which requires much less investment and action-cost; but hey, you do you). Grab Twin Feint so you can stand on your own along with Nimble Dodge. As a ninja, you won't be as reliant on allies I suppose?
From here, slap on some wakizashis and call it a day. Always try to Avoid Notice for your Exploration activity and work towards getting that... uh, invisibility. I'm really not seeing that as a fun end result.
Quick question - how much PF1 have you played? Follow up - how much PF2 have you played? I'm getting the feeling that you're going in blind to this. PF2 is not a game of "which build is best" but rather how you use them, as a heads up.
...As also stated in the previous tree, an archetype might work better then a full out class
So lets get to archetyping
Ninja Dedication:
Needs: Stealth trained
Gives: Stealth expert, (scaling?) Proficiency in simple and martial weapons with the concealable and either the agile or finesse tag as well as shuriken and the combat grapnelAdditional Feats:
Assassin Archetype: Expert Backstabber, Surprise Attack, Sneak Attacker
Rogue: Trap Finder, Tumble Behind, Quick Draw, Battle Assessment, Poison Wepaon, Far Throw, Subtle Shank, Fantastic Leap, SPring From Shadows, Implausible Infiltration
Monk: Ki-Rush, Dancing Leaf, Abundant Step, Water Step, Wall Run, Wind Jump, Sense KiThats already a good choice that makes one very ninja-y but we need a few custom ones
in no particular order with levels not attached and possible in for a balance change:Hail of stars:
Flourish, 1 Action, attack twice with ShurikenShuriken Expert:
Shurken gain the concealable trait and +5ft rangeStrike from Shadows:
Needs hail of stars, flourish, 3 actions while concealed
Attack two enemies, one with a shuriken at -2 penalty, if it hits you can make one melee strike without penalty, you dont break concealmentFulu Mastery: You learn the crafting recipes of 3 lvl 3 Fulus
during your daily preperations you can prepare 2 fulus of your level or lower for freeDeep Cover: you gain the Additional Lore general feat with a Lore of a craft of your choice (agriculture, sailor, smith, etc) You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to deception to appear as someone practicing that craft, the skillbonus increases to +2 when you are master in stealth
You increase that bonus by further +1 if you have been working in that profession for at least a week in the same general areaTook a wrong turn:
Once per day when you were caught by someone in a place you should not be, treat the outcome of your deception check to get out of the situation as one degree betterRags for Silk
needs
Honestly, with this probably overpowered archetype (that you can only use in home Games with GM permission) you can turn virtually any character into a decent enough Ninja, although it leans to the Martial side of things
Yeah I'm only in Organized Play right now so I cant do your archtype. OP doesn't allow Free Archtype at all.
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Yeah I'm only in Organized Play right now so I cant do your archtype. OP doesn't allow Free Archtype at all.
This is the sort of infromation that really is a bit more helpful up front. You can still use what I suggested up thread, but if you want to go with uncommon Minkaian weapons, make sure your Home Region is set to Jinin, Minkai, or Shokuro. Beyond that, I don't see anything that would stop you from fulfilling your ninja dreams.
Assuming you know what those are.
It's funny people keep saying "Oh there is no meta build" then proceed to say why the ninja class sucked because of what it didn't have in its build.
Who are you talking to?
Ninja/Rogue in Pathfinder First Edition was not that good.
You’ve been given advice on how to build a ninja character in Pathfinder SECOND Edition.
There’s not an overlap.
YOU think it wasn't that good.
I'm talking to Dancing Wind. Do you need quotes to tell who I'm talking to?| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"There is no meta, yet you say the ninja is bad. Curious."
As others have said, PF1 is a different game from PF2. It's like saying that Boardwalk is the strongest property in Clue.
And there isn't a ninja class in PF2, but we've given you every tool to make something like it in the system, even without knowing what it is you want. I'm not even sure that you know what game you're playing and strongly suggest just... I don't know, man - reading the Core book before joining a PFS game. There's just so much more you need to know in Organized Play.
EDIT: As a follow-up, Shadowdancer is a fine archetype to aim for, but a lot of work to get in PFS. The archetype is only available at level 8, which will take about 21 normal sessions to reach with a single character. A singular dedication, as well, isn't exactly "a build" but it does give you a good outline to aim for, sure.
President
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I've removed a post that was a veiled personal attack, as well as another that quoted it. Please don't call people names, either directly or in general.
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-Jim