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Alchemists have Smoke Bomb as a 2nd level feat, for what it's worth.
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I think the point that he/she is talking about is that smoking bombs are one of the most common thing in pop culture when you have things like alchemy/chemical in stories and games and that in PF2 we don't have such thing without it be a spell/magical item or a feat.
I understand the point of Smoke Bomb as an Additive to allow alchemist to do smoke clouds with any bomb and that's fun but not only requires a lvl 2 class feat but also restrict it too much to alchemist.
So I also think that Paizo designers forgot to do some simple throwable smoke grenades. Maybe the can add this in some future book.
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I would allow throwable smokesticks as a GM if asked.
Wont help at early levels too much, but Horn of Fog is probably one of the best items in the game for being a way to reliably and often get visual obfuscation effects relatively early. Depending on your definition of early level.
Once you get one, I think it's hard to beat in terms of effectiveness and cost.
Wont help at early levels too much, but Horn of Fog is probably one of the best items in the game for being a way to reliably and often get visual obfuscation effects relatively early. Depending on your definition of early level.
Once you get one, I think it's hard to beat in terms of effectiveness and cost.
Yes, but it is not a throwable item. Nor is it an alchemical item. Which is what I am referring to. Not something you can re-flavor
And early level would be level 1 in this case. [Not level 6 which is that magic item's level]
While I can understand wanting access at a lower level, I think demanding a throwable alchemical item is being too picky.
If that's how you're going to limit yourself then as far as I know there's nothing. And I wouldn't expect that there will be something published that will satisfy you. Honestly cheap obfuscation creating items and a problematic thing to balance. To be honest the Horn of Fog isn't a balanced item. Especially if you are a fighter with blindfight. A party that is prepared to deal with the consequences of fog vs enemies who are not are at a huge advantage. Making that even easier with cheap and easily available consumables isn't a great idea.
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I've always found it weird that we don't have smoke grenades, especially since the smoke bomb discovery chain was honestly one of the most interesting in pf 1.
Not to mention that making a powder bomb that belches out thick smoke is WAY easier, chemistry wise, than, say, flesh melting poison
While I can understand wanting access at a lower level, I think demanding a throwable alchemical item is being too picky.
If that's how you're going to limit yourself then as far as I know there's nothing. And I wouldn't expect that there will be something published that will satisfy you. Honestly cheap obfuscation creating items and a problematic thing to balance. To be honest the Horn of Fog isn't a balanced item. Especially if you are a fighter with blindfight. A party that is prepared to deal with the consequences of fog vs enemies who are not are at a huge advantage. Making that even easier with cheap and easily available consumables isn't a great idea.
You do realize that smokesticks are a thing, yes? The only issue is that you can't throw it. [And a lesser smokestick is a lvl 1 item]
This whole thread is talking about the lack of such item.
I know smokesticks are a thing, but the low level version you're referring to doesn't have a big area that it covers. It covers 4 squares, which is pretty easy for enemies to avoid.
If you want a throwable version, just rule (within your group) that the item can be thrown. You can make up whatever throw increment and other rules make sense for your group.
Claxon, I think you are missing the whole point of this thread.
Anyway:
If the enemy has to move to get away from the smoke then not only do they have to waste an action to do so but also potentially move away from a strategic position. Which is the whole point of "smoking someone out."
I don't think that I am. You want something that doesn't exist. You could easily implement rules for your house game that let you throw a smoke stick. Otherwise you can wait and hope that someday they'll introduce something that does what you want.
If the enemy is in a position where they are defending something, the smokescreen is probably more of a benefit for them than it is for you.
Given the small area of smoke sticks, it's unlikely the enemy will find it necessary to move. Remember in most situations your are impeded from making or being the target of attacks. Unless you have a situation where you are assaulting a position where they have superior numbers (more than twice the size of the party) and overwhelming ranged focus it's unlikely that the obfuscation hurts one side too much more than the other (unless your party doesn't take the penalties from concealment).
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I will say that after originally taking Smoke Bomb at Level 6 I soon had my Bomber retrain it. I really like the concept, and I agree there should be a simple Smoke Bomb item... but I found smoke messed up my party more than the enemy.
If the enemy is in a position where they are defending something, the smokescreen is probably more of a benefit for them than it is for you.Or, you know, where they are is giving them cover? Forcing them to move could remove said cover.
You could also use more than one you know.
If I'm taking cover and you throw a smoke bomb at me, chances are I'm still not going to move. The only way I'm moving is if I'm trying to make ranged attacks, and even then maybe I don't.
Like ottdmk, I think you overestimate the value unless you have a means of ignoring the concealment caused. Of course, it will depend highly on how your GM plays characters in reaction to concealment and what the goal of the enemy is. Generally speaking though, players are the aggressors. They are the ones coming into a place and seeking out others. Generally speaking, I think concealment helps defenders not aggressors.
The one scenario I can think of where it isn't the case is approaching a fortified/defended place with lots of ranged attackers and the party approaches throwing down multiple obfuscations affects so that they can't be targeted during their approach. However, you can actually do that just with regular smoke sticks. Assuming some starting point, you drop a smoke stick. 1st player moves twice (up to twice the slowest creatures movement) and activates another smoke stick. Keep repeating until you reach the destination. Might have to only move once depending on how many smoke stick one can hold and be able to activate, to allow for drawing additional smoke sticks.