Heated discussions on why Ninja's should be cha based basically boiled down to.. "cause rogues use cha as a dump stat."
Why do rogues use cha as a dumpstat?
First look at why people take stats
Str: Carrying capacity, attack power, damage
Con: HP, death saves, fortsaves
Dex: AC ranged Attack power, and reflex saves
Int: skill points
Wisdom: will saves
Cha: ...?
Cha bumps skills up to a maximum of usually 4-7 if you put everything you can into cha and pick a cha race You can squeeze out one more point if you are old.
But for the most part, Int is far more important in skills than Cha will be.
Regardless of what the ninja is, unless you make all super powers based off CHA and make these super powers important for the class.. you will continue to have classes that will use it as a dump stat.
There needs to be a non-skill based benifit to having a high cha, and it needs to be battle ready as well. Then and only then would you really see people not deciding as much to dump cha.
the problem is the benefits of charisma are something either hard to quantify or I'n the case of penalties often only applied to npc.
so a 7 charisma person with no skill points I'n any social skills probably has problems daily interacting with people socially. but depending on the player it can either be a big deal or never come up. ( if daily stuff is hand waved and he never speaks up I'n social rp situations )
I really don't know how to a dress it though . I'n previous threads like these some people expressed negative views of a dm going out of his way to push this stuff on a player.
In our last game one player took a 7 charsma when he was talking In character he swore profusely and had no compunctions speaking up In social situations. to the point where if it was important we made sure he didn't or couldn't speak.
it was a great way to rp it but more often younforget a character has a 7 charisma bevause the player doesn't .
Are we going to do this again? Hasn't this topic been beat to death?
Some people have no use for a thing. That shouldn't be enough to convince them that nobody does.
Are we going to do this again? Hasn't this topic been beat to death?
Some people have no use for a thing. That shouldn't be enough to convince them that nobody does.
No the topic hasn't been beaten to death. Otherwise it wouldn't keep rearing its head as justifications of making X run off cha because min/max characters dump cha. (Cha though is often followed by int as a dump.)
Are we going to do this again? Hasn't this topic been beat to death?
Some people have no use for a thing. That shouldn't be enough to convince them that nobody does.
it keeps coming up because the over riding problem hasn't been solved.
look at it this way. if I give my wizard a 7 str it should come up ALOT as an issue my max load is affected if I'm grappled I'm affected while it can be ignored a little bit my 7 str 98 lb weakling status can be reinforced without the dm going out of his way just by playing the game. the same is true of most of the other stats.
in the case of charisma the dm basically has to go out of his way to push a potentially subjective sociatal reaction to the low Cha char. which is where ALOT of the contention comes from.
CHA is a dump stat for characters who don't use CHA.
STR is a dump stat for characters who don't use STR.
DEX is a dump stat for characters who don't use DEX.
WIS is a dump stat for characters who don't use WIS.
INT is a dump stat for characters who don't use INT.
Nobody dumps CON.
Next thread please.
also:
Heated discussions on why Ninja's should be cha based basically boiled down to.. "cause rogues use cha as a dump stat."
No.
"cause rogues use CHA as a dump stat"
is the response to people claiming ninja should use WIS because:
"there's already a CHA based infiltrator, and that's rogue."
Rogue is not a CHA based infiltrator. Rogue is a DEX based infiltrator. Monk is a WIS based infiltrator. If Ninja is to be an infiltrator class and not overlap other class roles, CHA is the obvious choice.
Well how important CHA is is really up to how the GM runs the campaign. If its mostly hack and slash then yeah there isn't much incentive. If the GM runs a role play heavy campaign or even balanced then its still only a minor stat as parties will just send in there "face man". And then you have GM's starting threads like "why high diplomacy shouldn't get you what you want" or "why high charisma is not a charm spell" etc. This just reinforces to players to go ahead and dump charisma cause GM's wont give you any benefits for charisma based skills, there just going to have the NPC be nicer but not anything useful in game. I feel the reason CHA has little game effect is because it has so much potential that it couldn't be printed, it needs to be handled by the GM on a case by case basis. And that's why CHA is the ultimate dump stat, because GM's fail to actually reward high charisma so why bother!
Take my campaign for instance-
- a high diplomacy check or CHA check could get you 50% + 1% per point over the DC in selling goods (max 75%)or up to 75% the cost of a new item. while i don't DO this ALL the time i do it often. To prevent abuse i modify the DC's if it's taken advantage of, like buying/selling for everyone in the party.
- I've used gathering information to give secret side quests that otherwise would not have been known about. often these secret quests have unique/rare treasure or lots of treasure.
- I've had NPC's befriend party members and been beneficial to the party all because of high charisma not even requiring diplomacy checks.
- here's a good one. If there is one "party face" in the party and I have a high diplomacy encounter, like a royal meeting. I use the parties AVG charisma modifier counting the actual player doing the diplomacy check twice. This means if the party has say the beautiful elven bard doing the talking but in the background there is a slobbering barbarian with flies buzzing around, a xenophobic power hungry wizard nobody feels comfortable with, and a half drunk dwarf loaded with 10 different weapons who is intimidating, then that's gonna have social repercussions on the encounter.
- diplomacy takes time to do and its almost impossible to do in combat, but those who are extremely skilled at it and have a high charisma are more likely in my campaign to be able to buy that time. I allow the player to make a diplomacy check to basically halt combat and get it to engage in parley. of course this means the party can't take any actions either except allow the player to try to calm the the combatants. i then resolve a normal diplomacy check to see what happens, if they fail then combat starts a new.
when GM's plays charisma out like " no the shop keep is not gona cut any deals because your oh so suave". Or "no the orcs are not going to talk cause there blood thirsty brutes". and my ultimate favorite!!! "no i don't care if you rolled a 47 on diplomacy and maxed it out every level, this NPC is not going to do anything else or be more helpful!" while even BOB the parties barbarian half-orc with a 6 charisma could have gotten the same results. In this case the GM has just failed completely on handling CHA period! THIS is just punishing the player for maxing out a non combat useful ability and stat that only ever has curtain niche uses in the first place! and these things are COMMON in many campaigns. So why do players feel motivated to dump charisma? Hmmmmm i wonder maybe because a GM can't say no to +1 HP for high CON or +1 AC for high DEX.
i can understand the GM not wanting to have every NPC treated like there charmed because the player maxed diplomacy but there is OTHER ways to handle a high role then the NPC bending to the players will, have him be helpful in another way!
i keep side quests stored for high checks just for this kind of incident. i consider a high check double the DC or a preset DC i set. the still get the normal result for meeting the DC but if they also meet the higher DC they get a bonus result.
INSTEAD OF THIS: " you spend the night befriending the locals and gathering information (player rolls super high check cause he maxed out diplomacy and has a +17 bonus ). You find out that a lot of people and cattle have come up missing and its believed to be the work of a green dragon (false rumor, it's actually a couple eloped and the cattle were eaten by a forest drake-who has no treasure). Henry the local butcher is rumored to be cheating on his wife (with a super high role this is useful how?!). There is a Gang of bandits in the area and the local warden is offering a reward to route them out (fairly useful but the warden is going to ask the party for help anyway the next day as it's part of the quest!).
DO THIS: "after further investigating,persuasion, and because your character is so damn likeable you have managed to gain more of the locals trust and even befriended some. You deduce that the green dragon is probably not a dragon but a smaller lizard or minor dragon, that Henry cheating on his wife probably will not have much use and is just local gossip, And that the Warden will probably be seeking you great adventurers out to help with the local bandits.
BONUS!(for meeting a high DC check); "You find out that there is a traveler in town that no one knows much about, he just arrived tonight. After seeking him out you manage to earn his trust after much work and social interaction. He eventually divulges that he is just passing through on his way to what he believes is a forgotten tomb he found a map to. There could be anything in there. He asks you to accompany him as it could be wrought with danger and he will split the treasure with you 50/50!"
In this case i would keep track of the treasure from this bonus encounter. Since it's a bonus quest i actually let the players know that it is and i wont count the treasure towards there wealth per level!
This gives players incentives to not dump charisma but also doesn't punish them either. because of the way i run my campaign i have 1 player with a 10 CHA and the rest 12-18. I don't force them to pump charisma or punish them if they dont but it does effect curtain elements that they seem important enough not to dump charisma. It also provides "secrets" and allows the players to know that they are actually being rewarded for a high charisma.
No the topic hasn't been beaten to death. Otherwise it wouldn't keep rearing its head as justifications of making X run off cha because min/max characters dump cha.
it keeps coming up because the over riding problem hasn't been solved.
Seems to me the "problem" isn't Charisma, but rather the min/max playstyle.
No the topic hasn't been beaten to death. Otherwise it wouldn't keep rearing its head as justifications of making X run off cha because min/max characters dump cha. (Cha though is often followed by int as a dump.)Are we going to do this again? Hasn't this topic been beat to death?
Some people have no use for a thing. That shouldn't be enough to convince them that nobody does.
It has been beaten to death, and then was raised as an undead. And as well all know, "Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution"
So these threads, being composed of almost pure charisma, have hundreds of HP and a fortitude save off the charts. Therefore, don't expect to see them go away any time soon.
I changed saving throws to work off of all 6 ability scores. Instead of three, there are now six. Cha is the primary saving throw for fear effects.
It has been beaten to death, and then was raised as an undead. And as well all know, "Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution"So these threads, being composed of almost pure charisma, have hundreds of HP and a fortitude save off the charts. Therefore, don't expect to see them go away any time soon.
Would you please send that to all publishers who do dictionaries? I hear they're looking for an example for irrefutable logic!
You, sir, have won this thread! I hereby awards you two internets as well as absolute power over an imaginary nation of your choice. May I suggest Awesomnia?
Just one thing to add to your perfect argument: It seems that this topic is a ghost. It was beaten to death long before its time and rose again as a fell spectre. Whenever it is killed, it will just reform a short time later and repeat itself. The only way to put it to rest is fix the underlying issue. Unfortunately, this ghost has even less chance to see its undone issues resolved than Charlie the Goldfish, who found out that his lack of speech made it impossible for anyone to find out what it was he needed done, so they ignored him.
Seems to me the "problem" isn't Charisma, but rather the min/max playstyle.
Yeah, that's surely going to go away. People will definitely give up on optimizing their characters.
BTW, I do have a bridge for sale cheap.
CHA is a dump stat for characters who don't use CHA.
STR is a dump stat for characters who don't use STR.
DEX is a dump stat for characters who don't use DEX.
WIS is a dump stat for characters who don't use WIS.
INT is a dump stat for characters who don't use INT.
Nobody dumps CON.Next thread please.
also:
Heated discussions on why Ninja's should be cha based basically boiled down to.. "cause rogues use cha as a dump stat."No.
"cause rogues use CHA as a dump stat"
is the response to people claiming ninja should use WIS because:
"there's already a CHA based infiltrator, and that's rogue."
Rogue is not a CHA based infiltrator. Rogue is a DEX based infiltrator. Monk is a WIS based infiltrator. If Ninja is to be an infiltrator class and not overlap other class roles, CHA is the obvious choice.
Actually there is already a cha based infiltrator. Its called a bard.
I never see people dump Charisma in my games and I've never done it. I find taking a negative with it is too painful at 1st level. In our games skills get used a a lot. The most used skills tend to be Perception, Bluff, and Diplomacy.
As for Rogues they generally never dump Chr due to Use Magic Device. Taking a hit due to a negative Chr stat means getting access to magic items with no chance of failure happens a few levels later. So people don't dump it my game even on Rogues. They may leave it as 10 but never any lower except for the the fighter. Since they don't have enough skills to even make difference they usually don't bother with Chr.
Seems to me the "problem" isn't Charisma, but rather the min/max playstyle.
Yeah, that's surely going to go away. People will definitely give up on optimizing their characters.
No, they won't. Furthermore, "optimizing their characters" doesn't require Charisma be used as a dump stat. Sometimes, it requires Charisma be the opposite of a dump stat.
No, they won't. Furthermore, "optimizing their characters" doesn't require Charisma be used as a dump stat. Sometimes, it requires Charisma be the opposite of a dump stat.
I guess I better start using <sarcasm> tags because that one seems to have been a loss.
As the game stands, Charisma is the ideal dump stat as stated by the OP.
In the real world, there will always be people who enjoy character optimization, and will use the tools at hand to do it. A dump stat is one of those tools.
As such, charisma will remain a dump stat until something is done to make it mechanically of comparable value to the other attributes. Right now it is not by any means.
No, they won't. Furthermore, "optimizing their characters" doesn't require Charisma be used as a dump stat. Sometimes, it requires Charisma be the opposite of a dump stat.
I guess I better start using <sarcasm> tags because that one seems to have been a loss.
As the game stands, Charisma is the ideal dump stat as stated by the OP.
In the real world, there will always be people who enjoy character optimization, and will use the tools at hand to do it. A dump stat is one of those tools.
As such, charisma will remain a dump stat until something is done to make it mechanically of comparable value to the other attributes. Right now it is not by any means.
Exactly my point.
IT has to have a mechanically comparable value with in the ability itself. Making classes, feats, and racial features run off cha isn't going to make someone who has none of those even really think about using cha if he is wanting to min/max
Which said person wouldn't be a problem, if we didn't start trying to make design desicious based on that person min/maxing.
I think the thing about Charisma that makes so many people use it as a dump stat (I tend to dump wisdom myself, or possibly con) is that it's no use in a fight. And let's face it since 3.0, D&D and it's successors have been a set of skirmish wargame rules so if it's no use in a fight it's plausible to say it's of no use.
However, one thought I had (which, to be fair, I have yet to put into effect) is that, if you have a low charisma, every time you participate in a conversation with an npc, you should make an untrained diplomacy check. Score less than 5 and the npc attitude drops. This means low charisma characters will have to keep their mouths shut in all interesting role playing interactions and you won't find most players being so keen to save a few points by leaving their charisma at 8. Fighting may be fun, but if it's literally all you can do, you're not going to enjoy the game.
I think the thing about Charisma that makes so many people use it as a dump stat (I tend to dump wisdom myself, or possibly con) is that it's no use in a fight. And let's face it since 3.0, D&D and it's successors have been a set of skirmish wargame rules so if it's no use in a fight it's plausible to say it's of no use.However, one thought I had (which, to be fair, I have yet to put into effect) is that, if you have a low charisma, every time you participate in a conversation with an npc, you should make an untrained diplomacy check. Score less than 5 and the npc attitude drops. This means low charisma characters will have to keep their mouths shut in all interesting role playing interactions and you won't find most players being so keen to save a few points by leaving their charisma at 8. Fighting may be fun, but if it's literally all you can do, you're not going to enjoy the game.
If I am building a fighter, who will essentially have no access to social skills (except intimidate), why would I even try to have charisma? The deck is already stacked against me, so why reinforce failure?
Since Pathfinder is a team game, there is little consequence to dumping charisma and leaving the social interactions to the 'face' be that a bard, sorcerer, cleric, oracle, paladin, or rogue. Some do actually just play the game for the "kill things and take their stuff" angle, so your idea that it would be a massive penalty is not likely to be so once the rubber really meets the road.
But even if we did accept your policy, I can dump a whopping 1 skill point into diplomacy, and viola, the problem is gone, and I can assure you, the allocation is 1 skill point is not of comparable cost to the benefits provided by dump statting. Heck, dump statting charisma to move intelligence up by two will make up for that in a single level.
"dump stats" in general are easily fixed.
step 1:
Apply. All. Rules.
If some twit dumps Strength *make sure you are tracking encumbrance*. For everyone. Not just that person- but for the whole group. Coins are *heavy*. Clothes are heavy. That backpack with the tent, bedroll, and blanket in it? Yeah good luck with that 7 strength.
Know what else goes well with a 7 strength?
Shadows. Yup. They -suck-.
Not to say "murder someone because they dumped a stat!" but don't neglect the stat either. Dumping anything should involve penalties. Dude with a 7 strength is shaking in his *boots* when a shadow comes prowling around.
Step 2:
Apply. All. Rules.
Do NOT let the guy who dumps Cha get away with letting someone else do the talking for him. 3 Cha? Dude sleeps in the barn. He stinks and/or is rude and/or chews with his mouth open (with the food dropping out), slurps loudly burps during the main show of the night and thinks little of slapping the maids on the rump (or elsewhere) and is generally rude, crass, and worthless in *any* social situation.
How the person characterizes their super low Cha is really up to them but make sure they don't get away with "fluffing away" the penalty. "Well I just sit back and never talk to anyone" isn't going to cover a 3 charisma. A 9 maybe, an 8.. but the lower it gets the worse it gets.
When the mage dumps strength he does so with the knowledge of two things:
1) that there will be someone else to do the heavy lifting and
2) that sometimes he'll get screwed because he has a low str. climbing out of a pit? failed. Climbing up the cliff? failed. Carrying his share of the loot/cash out of the dungeon? failed.
When the fighter dumps cha he does so with the knowledge of two thigns:
1) that there will be someone else as the 'face' of the group
2) ARE YOU APPLYING the penalties or are you letting him slide? It is -your- job as DM to make sure the guy with the dump Cha isn't just standing back and letting it get ignored. Make the princess ask to sit beside him at the banquet table. (with the resulting "omg what is this thing I'm sitting beside! eww!"). Have the PC's invited to parties, etc.
The point is: No person should *always* be penalized for a dump stat- just like how much gear you are carrying isn't always an issue. It should be something they think about though and should be cognizant of. Cha is only an effective dump stat if you allow the player to get away with never, ever having to roll a charisma check/skill check/etc.
Make the situations appear where he has to occasionally fail those checks (or at least try- heck even a 20 rolled can pass a check if the guy has a 7 cha). The game doesn't need to "be fixed". It needs players to be aware of the consequences of dumping their stats.
-S
I think it's just fine as it is.
There are uses for Charisma. It is a casting key ability for some classes, and for everyone else is is a good way to earn basic competence in Cha-based skills. And Leadership. Even if charisma were removed altogether, the remaining skills would hardly be "balanced" (whatever that means in this case).
My players rarely dump Charisma because they don't want to play social rejects. Before somebody gets up in my grill about "penalizing low Cha characters" this isn't even something I reinforce, they just choose to not play low Cha characters unless it is a part of the character.
Some people are playing a different type of game, I suppose, where there is pressure to dump Cha so that they can have a mechanically optimal character. Why exactly should the rules be changed to further enable this? You're just moving the goal posts on "optimum".
If the issue, particularly, is why ROGUES use Charisma as a dump stat--yes, it is true, mechanically, they are going to get more out of the other stats, especially in a game where a GM does not pay attention to Charisma in how NPCs will initially react to a character.
UNLESS
They play a feint build, where every modifier to Bluff counts. Yes, you can rely on skill points etc. to boost bluff, but you really want it to be as high as possible, enough so that NOT dumping Cha is a good idea.
A handful of Rogue talents also are Cha-skill based. If you wanted Charisma to be more important, make more abilities based on them.
I consider Charisma a circumstantial dump stat. For a fighter, it is probably going to be low (though of course doesn't have to be). But of course it's not a dump stat for Sorcerers or Bards (as it should be). It's also important to some class features of Paladins and Clerics, and probably some APG classes I'm not remembering the mechanics for. Does it have to be important to every class? Even other stats that have mechanical bonuses for everyone still get dumped (not everyone takes a high Wisdom just because it modifies Will and Perception. And I recall having great fun making a low-strength archeologist who made everyone else carry all of her expedition gear for her ((with the players' consent, of course))).
In addition to Charisma-based skills, Charisma also modifies what you can get out of the leadership feat.
Charisma *is* important to some classes or character concepts. I am not really seeing *why* it has to be important to everybody. If anything, giving it a universal mechanic that made everyone want to have it would just make prioritizing stat arrays even harder. And as others have noted, party-face is a valued role. High Charisma characters have their niche and it's a valued one in the right kind of campaign. It's not going to be valued in a Monty Haul Dungeon Crawl... but should it be?
The more important thing, IMHO, is that players are to be expected to play up their dump stats (and their strong stats) to the best of their ability (in the name of fun and roleplaying). GMs are to be expected to also keep these in mind as much as they are able to, within their individual capabilities. (And YMMV I'm sure, but I personally have tremendous fun playing up both my dump stats and my strong ones... and likewise I'm not sure when I got annoyed more--when I played an extremely Charismatic cleric and she got treated like she was just Joe Cardboard (could be my roleplaying, to be fair--I'm not exactly high Charisma), or when I played a low-Charisma tiefling rogue, really worked on making her creepy and off-putting, only to have everyone want to be her best friend for some reason.)
Disclaimer: I haven't really paid attention to the ninja playtest so am unaware of how this evolved from the ninja discussion. But I don't consider ninjas really Charismatic types, FWIW.
When the fighter dumps cha he does so with the knowledge of two thigns:
1) that there will be someone else as the 'face' of the group
2) ARE YOU APPLYING the penalties or are you letting him slide? It is -your- job as DM to make sure the guy with the dump Cha isn't just standing back and letting it get ignored. Make the princess ask to sit...
I will respond again as I mentioned before, a dump statted charisma is easily worked around.
Say I have a 20 point buy. I dump stat my charisma to 8 and take a 12 intelligence in return. I can easily just pay for that dump stat by allocating 1 skill point (which the intelligence gives me at every level) to diplomacy. Viola problem solved. I may not be the face, but I am at least neutral in social situations for pretty much no cost whatsoever. In fact I will more than make up for it in the future with all those skill points.
Heck, I would be better off as a social focusing fighter doing this move since over a career that charisma is a whole point, while at every level I can put that extra skill point into diplomacy and become a smooth talker.
The fact that you even consider equating strength dumped vs. charisma dumped means you are ignoring the mechanics or glossing over the drastic difference in consequences.
If I dump strength I:
A) can't fight in melee worth a damn (can take a feat to fix accuracy)
B) gimp my CMD (not much you can do here)
C) can't carry enough equipment (can fix with a magic item)
If I dump charisma I:
A) slightly lack in social situations which can be made up for with skill allocation
B) ????
You can't really make up for a dumped Charisma with only one skill point, or even 8.
If you're only interested in 1-3 Charisma based skills, yeah, you're probably going to be able to work with Int. (Please note that this means I agree with your basic premise, just not that it totally replaces all need for Cha)
If you really want to be charming and glib and intimidating as all hell, then you actually don't dump Charisma. You also might want to choose a class that gives you more for your high Charisma, but it's not strictly necessary.
A lot of the above arguments presume a combat-rich environment. There certainly exist campaigns (and segments of campaigns) that benefit from having a few classy individuals around. Not just diplomacy, but bluff, too, and other options.
You know what though, it is fine that the game forces us to choose between rogues who thug people and rogues who have dashing-glib-fast-talk. Thugs are not known for their multifarious people-skills.
Actually there is already a cha based infiltrator. Its called a bard.
How does that Order of the Stick comic go again?
Elan: "MAKE MAKE MAKE (sings w/ banjo) .. MAKE THAT SNEAK ROLL!"
Someone's got to have a link to that comic.
Viola? problem solved?
Great- you have diplomacy. *golf clap*.
You can't: bluff, disguise, UMD.. at least not without blowing *alot more* skill points.
You are better off trading your int for your cha if your intent is to use those things. Keeping in mind also that Diplomacy doesn't make your character any more attractive (socially not necessarily physically). Someone can be friendly towards you and still find you abhorrent to be around. "You, to the barn, now! you aren't staying in my fine establishment!" because diplomacy doesn't change your eating/grooming/hygiene habits.
Your argument is like saying I can dump str and take climb skill and that makes up for it. huh? wut? Not hardly.
This isn't to say the two stats are identical: but my point still stands. If You Enforce the rules as they are written and force the folks who dump *any* stat to use them occasionally then their purpose is served. The cha-dumper will get dumped on sometimes just like the guy who builds around a 7 str will get dumped on occasionally.
Charisma is only a useful dumpstat if your DM allows it to be. Social interactions should be as "challenging" as the combat encounters, in their respective ways. If you let them ignore it, they will. So don't let them and the problem resolves itself.
-S
Not every rogue uses Cha as a dump stat, one of my rogues was a tiefling conman who preferred to fast talk people out of their money than have sticky fingers.
I'm no fan of dump stats in the sense that a player takes points from one stat to bump up another that's more mechanically advantageous. But then, that's one of the reason I have my players roll their stats.
With that in mind, I don't have a problem with putting your best rolled scores where you think they'll do the most good for your character concept. And if that means a character doesn't have good interpersonal skills, so be it. I'll still have them roll their intimidation, bluff, and diplomacy checks. If they don't have the charisma to get the results they want, so be it again.
I will say that I think D&D could do a better job of including more balanced multiple attribute dependency. And I'd still encourage a DM to hang a player by the choices he's made in an effort to run a balanced game (balanced by situation and opportunity as opposed to merely mechanics).
I housruled a long time ago that Will saves were based on Charisma, as I've always felt charisma was as much being about one's personal magnetism, likability, persuasion, as it was about personal confidence and sense of self and conviction...essentially one's ego. Which to me and my player's is more closely related to Willpower than Wisdom. Which my group has always made it more about being common sense and awareness of one's environment - perception.
SO all in all my group doesn't have any dump stats.
An interesting idea. I'd probably go the opposite route though, Charisma for offense (including as the basis for cleric/druid spells), Wisdom for defense. But I can definitely see where you're coming from.
Actually there is already a cha based infiltrator. Its called a bard.How does that Order of the Stick comic go again?
Elan: "MAKE MAKE MAKE (sings w/ banjo) .. MAKE THAT SNEAK ROLL!"
Someone's got to have a link to that comic.
Thats a lack of wisdom. But if you notice there are other parts of the comic where he does things like create silent image in order to fool people.
If you think the only thing a bard can do is jam a mad tune on a lute for his performance, you are dead wrong. Preform: Acting is the ultimate preform skill. You can preform both visual and/or audio elements for it. However you only need to be visible if you want to give the bonuses to other people. You do not need to see yourself.
Sandman makes the best archtype for infiltrators. You get much of the rogue stuff with it.. +1/2 your level on stealth checks? That's another +10 stealth right there, nevermind any spellcasting you might do as well for it.
You can totally act like James bond, and use the visual element of your preform acting to steal a spell. The enemy doesn't have to see you if you don't want them to. Just you have to see you.
Sure, you can't inspire competence without being vocal.. but seriously, the time when you will best use your cha is when you are talking to the bad guy(s). Again, acting like james bond, you can both make checks against the foe and inspire competence with someone else. Course not as a sandman. Instead you gain trapsense like a rogue at third level and every three levels later. But due to Dramatic Subtext ability, you can easily cast spells under the radar while preforming.
You've been caught! People are coming after you.. You quickly start preforming for a fascination effect, followed by slumber song. Dispite its name, it doesn't have to be a song.
You've got spellcasting covered and can do things like blood biography, create tresure map, sift, and even use magic to disguise yourself.
Viola? problem solved?
Yes, mechanically it is.
Great- you have diplomacy. *golf clap*.
You can't: bluff, disguise, UMD.. at least not without blowing *alot more* skill points.
I hate to break it to you, but a fighter has 2 skill points per level, and a dearth of class skills. They will be focusing on those. None of your social skills(save intimidate) are class skills, so the odds of your charismatic fighter spending any effort on those is about nil. Thus you raise a red herring.
Say we are talking a rogue instead, well since they get 8 skill points per level, they will wash out any charisma penalty in short order with levels. Assuming they even allocate 1 point to each charisma skill, they will have positive modifiers on all of them even at first level.
You are better off trading your int for your cha if your intent is to use those things. Keeping in mind also that Diplomacy doesn't make your character any more attractive (socially not necessarily physically). Someone can be friendly towards you and still find you abhorrent to be around. "You, to the barn, now! you aren't staying in my fine establishment!" because diplomacy doesn't change your eating/grooming/hygiene habits.
So you have a fighter using skills he would likely never use, and you are tossing out the actual reaction rules as written.
Sure, I guess GM fiat can get you a long way.
Your argument is like saying I can dump str and take climb skill and that makes up for it. huh? wut? Not hardly.
If the only thing I ever had to do was climb, then sure it would be valid. But we're not talking a comparable case here. Your imagined penalty for charisma as a dump stat was that people would treat you poorly. Take a bit of diplomacy and RAW that problem goes away. Viola.
For strength, sure you can climb now. You still can't carry anything. You still can't hurt anything in a melee fight. Your CMD still sucks.
Fix all that with one skill point.
This isn't to say the two stats are identical: but my point still stands. If You Enforce the rules as they are written and force the folks who dump *any* stat to use them occasionally then their purpose is served. The cha-dumper will get dumped on sometimes just like the guy who builds around a 7 str will get dumped on occasionally.
The charisma dump can be essentially ignored with minimal intervention. A strength dump cannot.
There a exactly seven charisma based skills. Charisma has no other effect in the game (beyond charisma based classes). Hence by level 7 someone who dumps charisma to 8, and boosts intelligence to 12 will be able to cover every bit of that pain, and everything past that is gravy. Given that many of those skills are very unlikely to be taken in the first place, it's moot.
Diplomacy is pretty much the generic interaction one. Make that a wash, and leave dedicated social situations to the face, and you're golden.
Charisma is only a useful dumpstat if your DM allows it to be. Social interactions should be as "challenging" as the combat encounters, in their respective ways. If you let them ignore it, they will. So don't let them and the problem resolves itself.-S
Charisma is a dump stat because the rules allow it to be. If you manage to specifically twist things to be otherwise, then you are not playing the game as written and we are in the area of house rules.
I housruled a long time ago that Will saves were based on Charisma, as I've always felt charisma was as much being about one's personal magnetism, likability, persuasion, as it was about personal confidence and sense of self and conviction...essentially one's ego. Which to me and my player's is more closely related to Willpower than Wisdom. Which my group has always made it more about being common sense and awareness of one's environment - perception.
SO all in all my group doesn't have any dump stats.
I'm curious, since you've not disconnected wisdom from will saves, why isn't it a dump stat now for non clerics and druids?
Sounds like you've just shifted the problem over a stat.
Where before anyone could hire help, and just use their money and charisma to get good results, now everything was collapsed into one feat
You can't hire mercenaries and other personnel with 3e rules? Oh my god! I've been playing the game all wrong for 10 years now!
Unless, of course, you're wrong.
Yes, yes I think you are. :P
Leadership is basically you building a cult of personality, become a hero others look up to and will follow - not because of a contract you drew up and the payment they receive, but out of adoration, respect, worship, loyalty, fear, etc.
You can still tell some random blokes that you want to pay them gold for running around with you fighting against something. You can make charisma-based skill checks to make them honour the contract. It's not the same as leadership, but it's possible.
You can also have underlings because you have reached a position of power or made a claim of rulership - and defended that claim.
That's totally, absolutely possible. The game might not devote two whole chapters to the concept, but that doesn't mean the rules forbid it or make it impossible.
Otherwise, stuff like Kingmaker would not be possible.
Every creature, by RAW, just keep gnawing and hacking away until they are all dead.
Tell me where it says that. In fact, don't bother: The rules don't say it anywhere.
Just because the game doesn't have rules that dictate behaviour doesn't mean the rules say everyone fights to the death. The game just remains silent. The game remains silent on a lot of things. They're just assumed to work like you'd expect them to work. Stuff like bowel movements, preservation instinct, whipped cream, the sniffles.
Of course, it requires the GM to think a little bit, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
The Fighter in old D&D was in many ways supposed to be the most charismatic because it was baked into the class the idea that you'd eventually run your own kingdom.
Let's find out whoever changed that and give him a huge medal.
Having a good Charisma at high levels really helped when you had small armies to direct.
But kings don't do that. Generals do. Kings sit on thrones, sawing cows in half, exercising their droit the seigneur (though maybe not while literally sitting on their throne), laughing at the court jester, and going to the toilet on foot.
Say we are talking a rogue instead, well since they get 8 skill points per level, they will wash out any charisma penalty in short order with levels. Assuming they even allocate 1 point to each charisma skill, they will have positive modifiers on all of them even at first level.
In principle, you are correct. If you are only looking to replace a very small number of skills, you can ignore the key ability and compensate with extra int and it turns out sort of okay.
However, even a rogue, with his 8 skill points and let's say for the case of argument a +3 int: if you want to replace 5 Cha-based skills (Buff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, UMD), and the difference is a +3 Cha vs a -1 cha, that's 20 points difference PLUS the missing ranks you were going to throw at the problem. You will never close that gap.
It is good and right and awesome to compensate for one or two skills against a low ability score. It is incorrect to say that even a rogue can completely close the gap with skill points.
the problem is the benefits of charisma are something either hard to quantify or I'n the case of penalties often only applied to npc.
so a 7 charisma person with no skill points I'n any social skills probably has problems daily interacting with people socially. but depending on the player it can either be a big deal or never come up. ( if daily stuff is hand waved and he never speaks up I'n social rp situations )
I really don't know how to a dress it though . I'n previous threads like these some people expressed negative views of a dm going out of his way to push this stuff on a player.
In our last game one player took a 7 charsma when he was talking In character he swore profusely and had no compunctions speaking up In social situations. to the point where if it was important we made sure he didn't or couldn't speak.
it was a great way to rp it but more often younforget a character has a 7 charisma bevause the player doesn't .
Moreover, even if you ARE taking social skills, dumping Charisma won't hurt you notably. Your penalty from even a 7 Charisma is going to be outweighed by putting ranks into the skill. Unless you actually need Charisma and advance it, the number of ranks in any skill is vastly going to outpace any bonus from Charisma.
Charisma is just not a necessary stat. Or even a notable tertiary stat. As the game is written, short of unimaginative DMs trying to shaft people for it, Charisma is nothing more than a place to pull point-buy points from.
Maybe if you allowed Will saves to use Charisma instead of Wisdom there might actually be a difference between any two characters built basically the same way, but most DM's first idea upon being told their players are dumping a useless stat is to arbitrarily stick it to them.
Moreover, even if you ARE taking social skills, dumping Charisma won't hurt you notably. Your penalty from even a 7 Charisma is going to be outweighed by putting ranks into the skill. Unless you actually need Charisma and advance it, the number of ranks in any skill is vastly going to outpace any bonus from Charisma.
True, but it will be rare that you actually overtake the guy who started 4 ranks ahead of you if he's also got the skill points to invest.
Moreover, even if you ARE taking social skills, dumping Charisma won't hurt you notably. Your penalty from even a 7 Charisma is going to be outweighed by putting ranks into the skill. Unless you actually need Charisma and advance it, the number of ranks in any skill is vastly going to outpace any bonus from Charisma.True, but it will be rare that you actually overtake the guy who started 4 ranks ahead of you if he's also got the skill points to invest.
The only people trying to be Diplomancers have Charisma as a necessary stat.
Awesome stuff
Wow! That is so cool!
Viola? problem solved?
Yes, mechanically it is.
Great- you have diplomacy. *golf clap*.
You can't: bluff, disguise, UMD.. at least not without blowing *alot more* skill points.
I hate to break it to you, but a fighter has 2 skill points per level, and a dearth of class skills. They will be focusing on those. None of your social skills(save intimidate) are class skills, so the odds of your charismatic fighter spending any effort on those is about nil. Thus you raise a red herring.
Say we are talking a rogue instead, well since they get 8 skill points per level, they will wash out any charisma penalty in short order with levels. Assuming they even allocate 1 point to each charisma skill, they will have positive modifiers on all of them even at first level.
You are better off trading your int for your cha if your intent is to use those things. Keeping in mind also that Diplomacy doesn't make your character any more attractive (socially not necessarily physically). Someone can be friendly towards you and still find you abhorrent to be around. "You, to the barn, now! you aren't staying in my fine establishment!" because diplomacy doesn't change your eating/grooming/hygiene habits.
So you have a fighter using skills he would likely never use, and you are tossing out the actual reaction rules as written.
Sure, I guess GM fiat can get you a long way.
Your argument is like saying I can dump str and take climb skill and that makes up for it. huh? wut? Not hardly.
If the only thing I ever had to do was climb, then sure it would be valid. But we're not talking a comparable case here. Your imagined penalty for charisma as a dump stat was that people would treat you poorly. Take a bit of diplomacy and RAW that problem goes away. Viola.
For strength, sure you can climb now. You still can't carry anything. You still can't hurt anything in a melee fight. Your CMD still sucks.
Fix all that with one skill...
You say "I can fix charisma with 1 skill point per level" and then wash away any and all things involving charisma except for one skill that is used to raise someone's friendlyness level with you.
If Charisma= Diplomacy roll then there would be no diplomacy skill. It would just be a Charisma check. It isn't. It is a skill.
Diplomacy does what it does and nothing else. If you want to houserule it to include "everything I would use Charisma for" then of course your folks are dumping the stat! You are elevating a skill to the power of an entire attribute. I'd jump on that too, it is awesome.
CHARISMA(CHA)
Charisma (Cha)
Charisma measures a character's personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance. It is the most important ability for paladins, sorcerers, and bards. It is also important for clerics, since it affects their ability to channel energy. For undead creatures, Charisma is a measure of their unnatural “lifeforce.” Every creature has a Charisma score. A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious.
You apply your character's Charisma modifier to:
* Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks.
* Checks that represent attempts to influence others.
* Channel energy DCs for clerics and paladins attempting to harm undead foes.
Bards, paladins, and sorcerers gain a number of bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a bard, paladin, or sorcerer spell is 10 + the spell's level.
Skill: DIPLOMACY(CHA)
You can use this skill to persuade others to agree with your arguments, to resolve differences, and to gather valuable information or rumors from people. This skill is also used to negotiate conflicts by using the proper etiquette and manners suitable to the problem.
Check: You can change the initial attitudes of nonplayer characters with a successful check.
Gather Information: You can also use Diplomacy to gather information about a specific topic or individual.
(edited out the tables and and of the language describing them since the boards don't translate them well and they aren't particularly relevant to the discussion.. if you disagree, feel free to quote them)
So how would it work in game?
Someone sees you, comes up, talkes to you, you make a diplomacy check, you raise their initial attitude towards you (assuming success- and lets assume success otherwise the conversation devolves).
So what are the buzz words? Initial. initial attitude. Lasts 1d4 hours - longer or shorter at DM discretion.
So what would make it longer? To me- longer would be.. a low CHA person keeping their mouth shut and not showing just how far they can cram their foot, leg, hip, and upper torso into the gaping hole that is there inability to do anything in a social situation.
What would be shorter? The person sits down and you win the initial check and then proceed to eat a meal with them and try to talk to them and they realize you have the charisma (the noun here not the specific ability) of a rock that's been buried in an active sewer for a century.
Diplomacy lets you alter their basic reaction but doesn't let you change their permanent outlook on you. This isn't Charm Person we're talking about it is a skill used to make a good first impression.
making a good first impression and a good lasting impression are not the same things. At any rate even just going by strict raw and leaving out the "DM interpretation" language you can still only pass yourself off as "not terrible charisma" for 4 hours out of 24 unless you are investing some other skill/magical ability/whatever into doing so. I'm not adverse to someone using magic to over come low ability scores (see- ant haul, bulls strength cats grace, etc..).
If you have the Diplomacy skill acting as their charisma score when they dump it and spend 1 skill point to "balance it" then it is you who are using houserules and then complaining that the game is broken.
The fighter, the rogue, the whoever is using Diplomacy to cover a low charisma is still- even under your system- blowing game resources to do so. So let them. The system is completely full of ways to do that.
Dump wis and take a feat to bolster will saves, dump dex and take a feat, dump con (erm and die? i dunno) there are feats to help with that too. (two actually- toughness and the fort feat).
Do they actually "make up for it"? No.> you are spending feats to counteract one bad thing about an attribute. Even if you let someone do the same with diplomacy you are still just using one area of your character to cover another.
Personally- here is how I could see it working out.
Guy has 7 Cha. 7 = -2.
If the gy has Dip as a class skill then he can be at +2 at level 1 (1 pt for rank +3 for CS). If CCS then its -1.
So what actually happens in game?
Here is the problem:
RAW; Using Diplomacy to influence a creature's attitude takes 1 minute of continuous interaction.
You walk into a tavern with your 7 charisma. You have explained it using.. whatever way you explain it. Ugly or uncouth or whatever. Doesn't really matter.
What matters is: you walk in, the innkeep looks at you and says "Get out, We don't take your kind in here, we run a clean establishment".
Now: You have to figure out how to fit in 1 minute before he has you bounced. See- diplomacy isn't "but I'm a nice guy!" it is 60 seconds of trying to convince him otherwise. You may get it, you may not. He may not want to listen to whatever you have to say.
So he's unfriendly.. you have to move him 1 step to get any shot at "but i want a room" and you have to move him two steps if you want a sure shot at a room. "I stink but I'll pay for a bath too, I promise"
Your DC is at least 20 for 2 steps. This is assuming the innkeep has 10 charisma. The more he has the worse it gets for you. As is you have to roll an 18 to get a room at the inn assuming you can get him to let you talk to him for 1 minute. (may I advise a bribe?).
Diplomacy is a skill. Charisma is an attribute. You can try to offset it but in actual game play you just can't. Your attributes control too many things- like what that initial attitude is from that stranger. Yanno- the guy you want to try and spend 1 minute with to use Diplomacy on. You walk in some place with a 7, a 6, a 5 Charisma.. and you are stuck before you ever get started.
If you follow the RAW.
Charisma is fine. It doesn't need adjusting. It doesn't need saving throws attached or more things stuck to it. It does its job just fine if you apply it as it is written and work skills the way the skill descriptions say to. Houserule part of the rules away and of course the framework will change.. but keep in mind that it is your altering of the rules that is the problem and not the rules themselves.
-S
CHA has many uses based on class abilities, mostly spellcasting and Paladin stuff. Most classes using CHA for class abilities are purposely that way because they either make great magnetic and/or inspiring leaders, silver-tongued manipulators and such.
But that doesn't seem enough. What I read here is a statement saying it isn't as useful or vital for every character classes. Which is true, the same way a wizard doesn't value STR much. This said on another topic, using CHA for the ki pool of the ninja won't help solve the problem.
The problem appears even more when you see Pathfinder as a game where you only pound stuff. CHA because far too useful on Roleplay heavy session. There's an area in between that brings some kind of balance and fun, and more uses to CHA than simply a bonus.
This said, I must admit CHA isn't THAT vital if we only look at the RAW and play RAW with limited RolePlay actions. I think Paizo should work on optional rules for "social combat", placing more importance on CHA and all mental stats. Maybe CHA would be what constitutes the "Social HP" of someone, and when this Social HP is down due to being intimidated or simply outwitted, a character falls prey to reasonable requests more easily, cannot take sense motive checks for a while because they trust someone, and such.
Though all that is possible with a good DM, I think if they printed something in a book that makes it so that a high CHA (and other mental stats) gives more chance for forcing leadership and ideas, people might stop complaining that CHA is a "Variable-intensity" stat.
The only people trying to be Diplomancers have Charisma as a necessary stat.
Not true. The classes based around Charisma have a natural advantage over other classes in doing so, but they aren't the only ones doing it.
In principle, you are correct. If you are only looking to replace a very small number of skills, you can ignore the key ability and compensate with extra int and it turns out sort of okay.
However, even a rogue, with his 8 skill points and let's say for the case of argument a +3 int: if you want to replace 5 Cha-based skills (Buff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, UMD), and the difference is a +3 Cha vs a -1 cha, that's 20 points difference PLUS the missing ranks you were going to throw at the problem. You will never close that gap.
It is good and right and awesome to compensate for one or two skills against a low ability score. It is incorrect to say that even a rogue can completely close the gap with skill points.
Certainly if you are going to make a 'face' rogue, you don't want to dump charisma. However, for a more generalist approach, it won't hurt you too much.
For most classes the charisma dumping penalty is mostly minimal, and can be worked around.
Now personally, I don't really see this as that big a deal. Pathfinder is about specialization, and dump stats just end up being an aspect of that. Now the fact that charisma is such an outlier might be worth of consideration, but it certainly isn't a game breaking issue.
Moreover, even if you ARE taking social skills, dumping Charisma won't hurt you notably. Your penalty from even a 7 Charisma is going to be outweighed by putting ranks into the skill. Unless you actually need Charisma and advance it, the number of ranks in any skill is vastly going to outpace any bonus from Charisma.
This is as it should be. There should be multiple routes to get similar results - in this case investment of skills vs natural talent. It'll fall behind a character with both, but that's as it should be too.
A few thoughts:
1. Having a dump stat isn't the worst thing in the world. Over the course of a typical campaign, just about every character will take damage, make skill checks, make will saves, make fort saves, make reflex saves, make attack rolls, carry gear, etc. etc. etc. Further every character needs to do whatever his party-role does especially well. Having a stat that isn't completely useless, but is generally not vital, just helps give some cushion to characters who want to be really good at what they're good at, but not completely suck at everything else. Charisma is generally great for this because player's who have a high charisma know they (generally) aren't optimizing for combat and usually enjoy being the party face, and socially interacting with NPC's.
2. If excessive stat dumping bothers you, you can always use good old fashion dice rolling over point buy(heresy! heresy!). If you use the standard 4d6 drop the lowest and let people assign their stats, you reduce the likelihood of over-specialized characters, but still provide enough flexibility for people to be good at what they're good at.
3. Charisma is only as useless as the GM makes it(yay for giving the GM flexibility with the kind of game he runs). However, I agree that 3.x/pathfinder has done very few favors for DM's who want to run a social interaction heavy game, in terms of smoothly flowing rules structures. The leadership feat follower table is no substitute for an integrated system of capabilities and challenges for campaigns that focus on politics and organization building. Sure this stuff usually gets adressed, but usually as an after-thought in a supplement with some wacky rules mechanics that don't blend in well with the core rules. So DM's who want charisma to matter usually wind up having to resort to all sorts of homebrew, which I admit can be a pain, and makes player's nervous.
Edit: It occurs to me I didn't weigh in on the rogue/ninja thing.
Rogue needs cha to feint. Diplomacy will generally handle most cha situations its true, but 1 skill point a level doesn't make you good at something if you have a negative stat modifier. If you have a 10-13 cha, then sure your 1 skill point per level will make you an adequate social skill monkey compared to most fighters, wizards, etc. but 10-13 isn't really dump stat territory, its a minor investment when you're min-maxing. Plus intimidate is actually useful in battle(especially with dazling display), so a rogue can spend some of his massive piles of skill points to actually get a useful combat ability, and diversify his limited bag of combat tricks. The truth is Rogues don't dump stats. They Mediocrize them. You want great dex(for everything), good int(for skills), and average everything else. You're better off with 4 twelves than a pair of 8s and a pair of 16s and a pair of 8s.
I haven't looked at the PF ninja's mechanics in detail, but in terms of pure fluff Ninja's are the opposite of charisma. If a ninja is doing his job right he should never have to speak. He sneaks in and kills people in the surprise round. In a proper melee, he's a skirmishing glass cannon. He is not a versatile trouble shooter skill monkey. If they want to give him a primary mental stat, it should be wisdom. Not that he's especially enlightened, but he clings to a difficult lifestyle with Willpower and self discipline, and finely hones his senses. Who plays a ninja with the desire to talk a lot?
A few thoughts:
1. Having a dump stat isn't the worst thing in the world. Over the course of a typical campaign, just about every character will take damage, make skill checks, make will saves, make fort saves, make reflex saves, make attack rolls, carry gear, etc. etc. etc. Further every character needs to do whatever his party-role does especially well. Having a stat that isn't completely useless, but is generally not vital, just helps give some cushion to characters who want to be really good at what they're good at, but not completely suck at everything else. Charisma is generally great for this because player's who have a high charisma know they (generally) aren't optimizing for combat and usually enjoy being the party face, and socially interacting with NPC's.
2. If excessive stat dumping bothers you, you can always use good old fashion dice rolling over point buy(heresy! heresy!). If you use the standard 4d6 drop the lowest and let people assign their stats, you reduce the likelihood of over-specialized characters, but still provide enough flexibility for people to be good at what they're good at.
3. Charisma is only as useless as the GM makes it(yay for giving the GM flexibility with the kind of game he runs). However, I agree that 3.x/pathfinder has done very few favors for DM's who want to run a social interaction heavy game, in terms of smoothly flowing rules structures. The leadership feat follower table is no substitute for an integrated system of capabilities and challenges for campaigns that focus on politics and organization building. Sure this stuff usually gets adressed, but usually as an after-thought in a supplement with some wacky rules mechanics that don't blend in well with the core rules. So DM's who want charisma to matter usually wind up having to resort to all sorts of homebrew, which I admit can be a pain, and makes player's nervous.
the problem isn't so much dumpstating itself.
Its when you start trying to "compensate" for the problem by making lots of new class features start running off cha because the old classes don't use it, while never actually fixing that problem.
Its like if you have a car with square wheels and it won't move.(Cause the wheels are square) so instead of replacing the wheels with round ones, you attach a jet engine on a different car.