So I'm a long-time player of DnD 5e who started off with Pathfinder 1e, and who is now giving PF2e a shot. My group and I are all newbies to the system, but we love how open-ended it seems as far as character creation is concerned. We're more than a little lost as far as party composition goes.
I've done some research and it seems like party optimization is more important than character optimization, as in it's more important to choose actions and classes that mesh rather than building up numbers like in 5e. That's the point where we seem to be drawing a bit of a blank. Like I said, we come from 5e where being a little selfish with your build and actions is pretty standard, but it seems like that might not be the best way to go in this edition.
My group seems to be pretty interested in running with a Swashbuckler, a Summoner, and a Gunslinger. I think the Summoner might be a little iffy just because of how intricate the class is, but the Gunslinger is 100% set. I was leaning toward Thaumaturge because I love the base class, but I'm not fully invested at this point just yet. I also like the idea of some sort of gish-like class that relies on buffing myself and my allies, but I haven't seen anything like that in this edition.
It seems like having a caster and some method of buffing/debuffing is really important in this game, and we don't have anyone for that role at this point. What do you guys think about that party comp? Is there something I should look into playing that might provide a bit of a buffer/debuffer?
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One dedicated character doing buffing/debuffing is a hard task. Same with healing. It is often better to spread that role around to the entire party. That is where the teamwork and synergy comes into play. Gunslinger could pick up and use Cover Fire or Fake Out for example. And Swashbuckler could use One for All, Antagonize (coupled with the Swashbuckler's high speed), or Guardian's Deflection.
Pretty much every class has something that they can use to support the team.
One dedicated character doing buffing/debuffing is a hard task. Same with healing. It is often better to spread that role around to the entire party. That is where the teamwork and synergy comes into play. Gunslinger could pick up and use Cover Fire or Fake Out for example. And Swashbuckler could use One for All, Antagonize (coupled with the Swashbuckler's high speed), or Guardian's Deflection.
Pretty much every class has something that they can use to support the team.
That's a fair point...I was kinda trying to think how one person would be able to take that role on by themselves lol we're meeting up some time soon to build our characters together and try to work some synergies in, so I'll bring that up for sure!
What would you recommend I look for in a class if the other three stick with Swashbuckler, Summoner, and Gunslinger?
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One dedicated character doing buffing/debuffing is a hard task. Same with healing. It is often better to spread that role around to the entire party. That is where the teamwork and synergy comes into play. Gunslinger could pick up and use Cover Fire or Fake Out for example. And Swashbuckler could use One for All, Antagonize (coupled with the Swashbuckler's high speed), or Guardian's Deflection.
Pretty much every class has something that they can use to support the team.
That's a fair point...I was kinda trying to think how one person would be able to take that role on by themselves lol we're meeting up some time soon to build our characters together and try to work some synergies in, so I'll bring that up for sure!
What would you recommend I look for in a class if the other three stick with Swashbuckler, Summoner, and Gunslinger?
Maestro Bard is your all in one support caster and can do most of your party's support by itself.
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First, if you can talk to them, I would advise you try talking the person who thinks Swashbuckler is neat out of choosing that Class, it is extremely RNG dependent and also essentially requires the group to always run near optimum tactical coordination for them to be able to pull off Precise Strikes even once per combat... it is something of an "advanced" Martial Class that, for newbies, is essentially a giant trap unless they're all really on board with tactical coordination to ensure they can shine. I suggest a Fighter, Rogue, or Ranger instead.
As for YOUR Class, I second the suggestion to take Bard. Literally, any time someone asks "What should I play?" and they list what the other players are if they don't already have a Bard then Bard is almost certainly going to be the best choice 99 out of 100 times, it is easy to learn, fun to play, and arguably the best all-around Spellcaster in the system despite it being in the Core Rulebook.
Also, one thing to keep in mind during all this, if you don't have a Divine or Primal Spellcaster, even if you do choose Bard, you'll want to be sure SOMEBODY is well trained in Medicine and maybe even looks into grabbing the Battle Medicine Skill Feat for supplemental in and out of Combat healing, otherwise you may end up feeling a bit harried after two, or even one encounter and feel pressured to rest for the day which is not such a great first impression of things, esp at early levels.
First, if you can talk to them, I would advise you try talking the person who thinks Swashbuckler is neat out of choosing that Class, it is extremely RNG dependent and also essentially requires the group to always run near optimum tactical coordination for them to be able to pull off Precise Strikes even once per combat... it is something of an "advanced" Martial Class that, for newbies, is essentially a giant trap unless they're all really on board with tactical coordination to ensure they can shine. I suggest a Fighter, Rogue, or Ranger instead.
As for YOUR Class, I second the suggestion to take Bard. Literally, any time someone asks "What should I play?" and they list what the other players are if they don't already have a Bard then Bard is almost certainly going to be the best choice 99 out of 100 times, it is easy to learn, fun to play, and arguably the best all-around Spellcaster in the system despite it being in the Core Rulebook.
Also, one thing to keep in mind during all this, if you don't have a Divine or Primal Spellcaster, even if you do choose Bard, you'll want to be sure SOMEBODY is well trained in Medicine and maybe even looks into grabbing the Battle Medicine Skill Feat for supplemental in and out of Combat healing, otherwise you may end up feeling a bit harried after two, or even one encounter and feel pressured to rest for the day which is not such a great first impression of things, esp at early levels.
Huh I hadn't heard of it being RNG-heavy, but that makes sense now that I think of it since it's all based on skill checks...that's definitely something to keep in mind
I was kinda thinking that, but I do want to play some sort of martial class with support capabilities if possible. Is there a way to make a decently serviceable melee Bard? Anything I build will likely run with the Battle Medicine feat just because it seems so useful lol
I was considering Cleric, but the spell preparation system kinda messes with my head...needing to prepare each individual spell slot feels like way too much to think of at the beginning of the day!
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Martial with Support capabilities would be Champion most suited
They have a great reaction to take off pressure from Allied, a decent healing spell that can nicely Supplement out of Combat healing and are the class that easieat gets the highest AC in the Game
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Huh I hadn't heard of it being RNG-heavy, but that makes sense now that I think of it since it's all based on skill checks...that's definitely something to keep in mind
Swashbuckler is a bit fiddly.
For two actions, any character can attack twice. If they succeed at both rolls, they will do their attack damage twice. If they only succeed at one, they will do their attack damage once. And if they fail at both checks, they will do effectively nothing.
For two actions, a Swashbuckler can do a skill action to gain panache, then a finisher to spend it. If they succeed at both rolls they will do above normal damage - generally more than twice their normal attack damage. If they only succeed at the attack, it will be a normal attack damage. If they only succeed at the skill check, they will only get the benefits of that skill action - which for Feint is going to be a temporary bonus that is already gone by the end of their turn, but for Demoralize or Grapple/Trip it could actually be a tangible benefit to the rest of the team. And if they are using Confident Finisher, they will do less than normal damage. Other finishers don't have that effect though, so Bleeding Finisher won't do anything on a miss.
So if we assume 50% odds for all of the checks and no crits - just to make the math easier: a generic martial doing two attacks will have a 25% chance of doing double damage, a 50% chance of doing one hit worth of damage, and a 25% chance of doing nothing. A Swashbuckler with a combat routine of gaining and immediately spending panache will have a 25% chance of doing above average damage, a 25% chance of doing normal damage (with a lower damage agile or finesse weapon and likely low STR bonus), a 25% chance of doing trivial damage and a skill effect, and a 25% chance of doing nothing.
So yeah, Swashbuckler has a 25% chance of doing better than a generic martial, and a 75% chance of doing worse.
They do have some other things going for them. Most types benefit from high CHA, and CHA is a good skill to have. They also have extra skill feats (though skill feats are generally meant for role-play and out-of-combat stuff). They generally have good defenses, though nothing more than other characters could get - it is just easier to get it on Swashbuckler. And Opportune Riposte can train the enemies to not swing for the fences against the party.
But unless the player and the party in general is good with having fun with misses and failures, Swashbuckler should be avoided. Though if the group isn't at least somewhat accepting of misses and failures, PF2 as a whole may not be a good choice of RPG system.
I guess Champion with Marshal archetype could be good too.
Champion with Marshall archetype really thrives when in very close quarters with allied martials who like being in close quarters. In a more spread-out group, it winds up beign pretty disappointing.
A lot of the mesh thing is in finding two-player combos. Like, one character is good at exploiting a certain condition and another character is good at handing it out. If you have one character who does a lot with snares, you want another one who's good at force d movement. If you This is all stuff that you maybe dont' want to demand of yourselves first thing. Honestly, my suggestion would be to look at a few pieces of advice, throw together characters who you think might be fun, and play... while *also* spending some off-time looking into the available synergies.
Don't worry about putting together a huge amount of party op until you've had at least a bit of table time. Anyway, the tactics game is honestly more important than the chargen part. Make sure that you have something useful to do with your actions that doesn't increase your Multiple Attack Penalty, and keep an eye out for ways you can set things up to make life easier for your buddies. Consider letting everyone have a full rebuild after a few sessions (like, say, once everyone hits level 2) so that you can pick up some understanding in the first few, and then adjust accordingly.
Archetypes may not be on the table yet. Assuming level one … a Swash may be a decent support martial in and of themself. But it’s in the Advanced Player’s Guide for a reason.
Most martials will have a way of supporting tho. Guisarmes and bo staves are reach trip weapons so anyone within ten feet risks going prone in front of another party member. There are support barbarian builds out there!
The only other worry I have is spellcasting, since Summoners don’t have a deep,well for it. So … how’s that singing voice?
I've done some research and it seems like party optimization is more important than character optimization, as in it's more important to choose actions and classes that mesh rather than building up numbers like in 5e. That's the point where we seem to be drawing a bit of a blank. Like I said, we come from 5e where being a little selfish with your build and actions is pretty standard, but it seems like that might not be the best way to go in this edition.
Have you played any MMOs?
Think of it like queuing for a dungeon in an MMO. You want a tank, a healer, and two DPS for that.
A lot of people on here will keep saying you don't need tanks and healers, then you'll see they're playing soft fights with easier challenges.
If your GM is will to take a light hand you can just have out of combat healing and be any old 4 random DPS.
But if your GM starts using tactics against you and if you're playing in any of the published adventures the challenges will be brutal and it will be common to see at least 1 PC go from max to zero in one to two hits unless you're playing with team coordinated tactics and builds that can distribute things around, stop damage, recover damage, and coordinate dealing it.
I regularly see the same PC ping pong from max to zero to max to zero more than once in a fight - until dying 4 hits and that player is rolling out a new PC. And that's 'rules as written' in something like the beginner box or abomination vaults.
When I played Plaguestone - the entire party would go through that every single fight because that module is overtuned.
I've done a series of one-shots, and was in 2 campaigns by different GMs (one of whom just quit to focus on a new relationship) - and while they each GM'd with very different styles and levels of 'how tactical are my NPCs going to be' the results were the same over and over: any weakpoint in our builds and/or tactics would cause PC deaths. And sometimes pure random chance was all it took.
Not only do you need builds where you can offset the damage, prevent an enemy from reaching the backline, and more... you need to play with that in mind also. You need to develop fighting formations, move with coordination, not run out ahead and leave other exposed, work in flanking, work to help people that get knocked prone or flanked, and more.
What would you recommend I look for in a class if the other three stick with Swashbuckler, Summoner, and Gunslinger?
That really depends on what kind of build the summoner goes for. They could make that into a front line tank, or a backline 'healer'.
The class is built for meleeing with the eidolon, but some might look at it and see a sorcerer with an overgrown familiar.
Assuming they build it as a frontliner then you have the summoner as your "tank", the swashbuckler is your flanking DPS (and may eventually regret not going rogue), and the gunslinger is ranged DPS.
If your summoner builds to stand back and not send in their eidolon - hope that PC gets replaced soon. I've not seen this done yet so I wouldn't expect it. But it was my own assumption for the class before I saw someone make one. Based on the art for the iconic I assumed it was a ranged support, when it's actually a melee tanking or DPS class.
If your gunslinger decides to get a scatter weapon, or a weapon that is unstable so they need a tripod or to take a steady action, or they're a sniper... then you're probably screwed because that PC is going to be acting slow, falling behind, getting on the wrong side of a door, wall, or corner, and more - or if scatter they will be damaging your own team.
They could also go combination weapon or gun + melee weapon and then they're in melee so you can just build with the assumption that that player will be making a new character after session 2 because a melee gunslinger sounds cool but you don't have the armor and defensives to survive someone hitting back. Especially at level 1 when you just spent all 15gp buying only 1 gun and a single stick of chewing gum, you didn't even make it out of the store with a cowboy hat yet. Gotta come back at level 2 for that.
But if they make a fast and highly mobile ranged then they will be your top damage dealer and full of tricks to help line things up if they take the time to master the class.
then you just need to cover support / healing. And make sure somebody in this group has detect magic, and a skill that can identify magic items.
Sorry I haven’t responded today, I’ve been busy taking care of some things, and actually met with the group! A few people asked if we’re running a premade adventure or homebrew…we are gonna be playing a homebrew campaign, but the DM may or may not pull from published adventures.
The common reply was that the classes the rest of the group chose are all difficult and relatively advanced. The Summoner saw how difficult the class would be to run and swapped to Rogue, the Swashbuckler actually looked at Fighter and decided to swap to that (after seeing some of the math that was thrown around in here!), and the Gunslinger decided that he wanted to stick with it lol
With that new party comp in mind, I’m still undecided but leaning toward either Cleric, Druid, or Bard to add some healing and utility. I’ve heard some really negative things about the Warpriest’s spellcasting ability, but is it really that bad? And do you think Bard, Cleric, or Druid would be a better fit?
With that new party comp in mind, I’m still undecided but leaning toward either Cleric, Druid, or Bard to add some healing and utility. I’ve heard some really negative things about the Warpriest’s spellcasting ability, but is it really that bad? And do you think Bard, Cleric, or Druid would be a better fit?
Warpriest might suffer as a caster but it still has healing font, which scales off of your charisma. So you can make an effective martial healer by keeping Charisma as a decently high enough stat.
At level 2, get the blessed one devotion feat for lay on hands. That will give you one more heal in combat, and a near unlimited supply out of combat (once per 10 minutes).
Note that while you will be a martial, your attack proficiency won't scale as well as a true martial.
People often say PF2E lacks a martial caster, but it has two. Magus and Warpriest. They're just balanced, and when people look for this concept they want someone who is as strong as a fighter in martial AND as strong as a wizard in casting - both at the same time. That is not balanced... But Warpriest and Magus are.
Bard vs Cleric vs Druid. This is really about Occult vs Primal vs Divine caster.
Lots of undead? Go cleric.
Lots of things that will be susceptible to mental effects? Go Bard.
Lots of physical / elemental things, or an unknown balance? Go Druid.
Want to melee on the side? Animal or Wild druid.
Want to spam a silly number of in-combat heals? Cleric.
Want to buff your allies pretty much 24/7? Go Bard.
Note that only Druid addresses out of combat healing if you go Leaf Druid. And then ONLY if your GM allows for a supply of ripe berries - which some GMs might let you pick off of your familiar...
For the others, you will want to get medicine plus the assurance skill feat, OR take Blessed One at level 2 for endless out of combat healing with no chance of failure.
On the gunslinger... As long as they make a mobile option like pistolero the gunslinger will be decently easy to play and extremely high damage. But they will feel very low damage until the player gets a crit. The class is based on fishing for crits so the player needs to do things to line those up (use abilities to increase your attack roll). A fast moving mobile gunslinger can rip through enemies with ease. Any gunslinger can - but the others will get blocked by walls or moving fights too often. I've seen too many players want to play 'the guy with the super big heavy shotgun' get stuck outside of where the battle is and by the time they arrive they only get one turn of action before somebody else finishes things. Right now I'm seeing that problem with an alchemist of all things, because he went for a tripod mounted bomb launcher angle in a dungeon crawl...
Note that if your GM decides to use the 'level without proficiency bonus' variant rule... that rule absolutely destroys any class that relies on crits, which is both fighter and gunslinger. It's a variant designed to make PF2E feel more like D&D 5E - but because it only patches one thing, it breaks much of the rest of the game. So if your GM ever hints at that variant - talk them down or anyone who's character relies on rolling a dice or having their target roll a dice should be allowed to make new character to one that involves no dice rolls. ;)
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With 3 hitters, I would go Bard. The opponents that die faster will not inflict damage that needs healing.
Someone should max Medicine and take the relevant feats. Or go the Blessed One way. Or stack healing potions and keep one hand free.
In fact, there should be 2 in-combat healers (though not necessarily dedicated healers) in case one goes down.
If you build a fragile Bard, you can take the Reach spell feat to stay away from the frontline. Note that it completely changes the way you will play your Bard.
You can use Ancestry feats or Arcane/Primal caster dedication to get Electric Arc, which greatly benefits from Reach spell.
With 3 hitters, I would go Bard. The opponents that die faster will not inflict damage that needs healing.
Someone should max Medicine and take the relevant feats. Or go the Blessed One way. Or stack healing potions and keep one hand free.
In fact, there should be 2 in-combat healers (though not necessarily dedicated healers) in case one goes down.
If you build a fragile Bard, you can take the Reach spell feat to stay away from the frontline. Note that it completely changes the way you will play your Bard.
You can use Ancestry feats or Arcane/Primal caster dedication to get Electric Arc, which greatly benefits from Reach spell.
If they don't want to play a caster, they shouldn't have to play a caster. They've already said they want to play a martial with support abilities.
Realistically? I'm thinking that's a Thaumaturge. It's a bit on the complicated side for a martial, but not terrible, and you can absoltuely get some support in there with the right implements. Something like Chalice->Regalia->Mirror could work well if you take an ancestry with a decent unarmed attack. Chalice gets you immediate access to some useful heal/fortify and a useful thing to do with spare actions. Regalia starts handing out buffs to your allies. Mirror swaps back and forth usefully with chalice so that you never have to worry about being caught with regalia in your pockets and not being able to swap it in easily. Look into taking Marshall archetype, if it looks like you can leverage it well. Clearly a martial, clearly has some support abilities, and should work pretty well with the group you've got.
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With 3 hitters, I would go Bard. The opponents that die faster will not inflict damage that needs healing.
Someone should max Medicine and take the relevant feats. Or go the Blessed One way. Or stack healing potions and keep one hand free.
In fact, there should be 2 in-combat healers (though not necessarily dedicated healers) in case one goes down.
If you build a fragile Bard, you can take the Reach spell feat to stay away from the frontline. Note that it completely changes the way you will play your Bard.
You can use Ancestry feats or Arcane/Primal caster dedication to get Electric Arc, which greatly benefits from Reach spell.
If they don't want to play a caster, they shouldn't have to play a caster. They've already said they want to play a martial with support abilities.
Realistically? I'm thinking that's a Thaumaturge. It's a bit on the complicated side for a martial, but not terrible, and you can absoltuely get some support in there with the right implements. Something like Chalice->Regalia->Mirror could work well if you take an ancestry with a decent unarmed attack. Chalice gets you immediate access to some useful heal/fortify and a useful thing to do with spare actions. Regalia starts handing out buffs to your allies. Mirror swaps back and forth usefully with chalice so that you never have to worry about being caught with regalia in your pockets and not being able to swap it in easily. Look into taking Marshall archetype, if it looks like you can leverage it well. Clearly a martial, clearly has some support abilities, and should work pretty well with the group you've got.
The OP changed their mind and were actually considering Bard.
With that new party comp in mind, I’m still undecided but leaning toward either Cleric, Druid, or Bard to add some healing and utility
@Arcady:
I definitely see where you're coming from as far as the differences and strengths between the three casters go. Definitely agree as far as the perception of the Warpriest. While they have more interesting options in combat than the Cloistered Cleric does early on (no real good damaging Divine cantrips) I would agree with the popular opinion that they're probably too weak compared to the Cloistered due to the need for multiple ability scores (Str, Con, Wis, and Cha vs Cloistered only needing Dex, Wis, and Cha). Hopefully the Revision gives them more than just Master proficiency in their weapon at level 19...
As for the Gunslinger, I definitely want to support him and help him get as many crits as possible. I'm mostly concerned about Bard because of the amount of Charisma users in the party, as well as the repetitive action loop (composition cantrip, rinse, repeat). It seems like most of the interesting actions in PF2 are attributed to the martial classes to the exclusion of the casters.
@The Raven Black:
The same that I said to Arcady applies here; I'm a bit concerned about the repetitive nature of the Bard (and casters in general).
@Sanityfaerie:
I would definitely prefer a martial with some sort of support and healing ability, but I'm open to trying something else if it's going to help everyone have fun! Tryna be a team player :)
I love the design of the Thaumaturge...Esoteric Lore with Diverse Lore is so cool, and the Implements all seem fun. I am a little disenchanted with the Chalice at low levels just because of the low amount of THP and healing it grants, but it does get steadily better which is nice. Regalia and Mirror have to be my favorites by far though! I had been putting together a Mirror Thaumaturge with the Champion archetype when we were originally going to have a Cleric, but he swapped to the Gunslinger which made it a bit harder to justify haha
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I guess I just... don't feel like OP should have to pick a caster class (which he expects to not enjoy) just because everyone else has already grabbed martials. There are other ways to get healing (mostly archetypes). There are other ways to do ally-buffing.
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The Maestro Bard is not rinse and repeat thanks to Lingering Composition. Once you succeed at your Performance check, you get 2 or 3 rounds of full actions. Since a fight usually lasts only 4 to 5 rounds, that's plenty of time to shine.
Now, if they want to play a somewhat martial class, I would go with Investigator (Forensic Medicine) with the Medic dedication : lots of good things for out of combat situations and exceptional healing capacities.
I do not know enough about Thaumaturge to properly assess its efficiency in such a party.
I'd avoid investigator for your starting character. It's generally a bit weak in combat (it gets out-of-combat bennies instead) and actually leveraging what it has to offer requires both a particular kind fo player skill and a GM who's willing to support you in playing that way. I understand that it also has some overlap with the rogue.
Thaumaturge is a decent enough martial support. Tome+weapon with flickmace and champion archetype is a swiss army knife of offense, knowledge, healing (lay on hands) and mitigation (champion reaction). Champion itself is free to go into marshal or bard archetype for buffing.
Or, you just play a 2nd fighter. Same as the above two, you can option for champion, marshal, and/or bard archetypes while your innate +2 attack offsets some of the pain of not having a dedicated de/buff caster.
After looking over the Bard class, I decided that it’s the best option for the group but the least fun option for me. It would help them a lot, but I’m not gonna stick myself with something that I think is gonna be really constraining. It’s unfortunate that it’s the strongest option, but fun > power for sure!
At this point I’m between a Thaumaturge, a Sun Domain Cloistered Cleric, or a Champion taking Deity’s Domain for Sun Domain. The Champion sounds a lot more powerful since we got the errata that says it grants a focus point, and my DM is using the announced rule revision that anyone can regain more than one focus point using the same refocus activity…meaning I would have around the same number of Lay on Hands available each fight that a Cleric would have Heal spells from Healing Font for the whole day. I think any of the three could be powerful and fun, realistically
@Arcady:
It seems like most of the interesting actions in PF2 are attributed to the martial classes to the exclusion of the casters.
This is one reason I currently like the Druid and the Cloistered Cleric.
Druid: animal and wild open up more tactical angles for me. However as you noted on reddit - if you do this as a healer you're giving up most of your higher ranked spells for heal, and then you're stock-piling staves and wands... However if you play it more offensively or in between you keep a wide set of play options.
Cleric: if you've got a lot of undead enemies your heal font suddenly becomes a massive AoE attack spell. If not - picking the right domain can open up play options. BUT not as many as you'll get from druid.
The cleric argument I just gave... really only works for me. It has the same flaws as any other caster, I just happen to like that particular set of limitations. But the druid with an animal or wildshape does objectively open up more tactics.
and my DM is using the announced rule revision that anyone can regain more than one focus point using the same refocus activity…meaning I would have around the same number of Lay on Hands available each fight that a Cleric would have Heal spells from Healing Font for the whole day. I think any of the three could be powerful and fun, realistically
Yes, I'm eagerly awaiting that rule change becoming official as it will dramatically alter the good options for some choices.
Arguably if that change goes out as stated, Champion suddenly becomes the best healer in the game, over cleric. The cleric's healing font recovers with daily preparations. The Champion's focus points for lay on hands recovers with points spent x 10 minutes of refocus.
Lay on hands does NOT hit as hard... but it should hit hard enough to keep people alive through a fight if you master picking when to use it, and also get battle medicine and the assurance skill feat (my current game has a guy with medicine and assorted feats for it, but no assurance. Last session he kept failing the roll, locking us out for out of combat healing for hours. That's the same game were we lost a PC to broken glass on the floor... and one of our medic's failed rolls had been earlier in that fight on the guy who's PC died a few turns later. I've seen enough failed medicine checks in the games I've played that for me assurance is the top pick to get first).
I've seen a couple youtubers claim Champion is boring to play. It doesn't have all the gimmicks that a rogue, ranger, or fighter does. It's cool thing depends on someone else doing something and then reacting to that. BUT it is still a melee combatant and if you pick a weapon that has some cool traits you will have cool tactical options.
At level 3 you get a feat to boost the hit points of your shield, and then if you later also buy a sturdy shield - you're shield is suddenly near invincible and you can start spamming shield block reactions.
I've been itching to play one myself. If my group had had one last session, we would not have lost that one PC to the room full of broken glass.
@Arcady:
Really fair point on the wild shape Druid, it does sorta open other avenues of play up in a sense.
I know that this campaign isn’t going to have a very heavy leaning on undead, but might include quite a bit of demons and devils along with other outsiders.
That point about the Champion is exactly what I mean! They suddenly become absolutely crazy as healers which my DM seems ok with. The focus point change is a weird one because it does change a lot of balance, but it’s undeniably a huge buff to Psychics and Champions which I’m all for!
I hadn’t thought about Assurance on Medicine at all, but it makes sense for sure! I might have to do that as well. I can see the point about Champions being kinda boring because of how reactive they can be which can definitely be a concern. Then again, like you said, being in melee inherently gives more options; I would be using a Khopesh for the option to trip.
Huh I might have to look into that…is that a feat, or the Shield Ally? I was definitely looking at the shield ally because the blocking is 100% a great use of reaction if I’m not near an ally to protect.
@Arcady:
Huh I might have to look into that…is that a feat, or the Shield Ally? I was definitely looking at the shield ally because the blocking is 100% a great use of reaction if I’m not near an ally to protect.
Yeah shield ally.
On druid. My druid is animal, so I get my tactics with my animal companion at the cost of losing one of my actions to give my wolf 2. The wolf has the hitpoints of a flanker (like a rogue more or less). So I can't tank with it, but with a 40 speed I can run around and help the others set up flanking.
Back to Champion - kopesh for tripping would be very potent. Tripping people makes them easy to hit AND they lose actions standing back up AND they have a penalty to attacking you while prone AND they move slower while prone... so... it's a very powerful move to be good at trips and knockdowns.
The guy who lost his PC last session in our game is coming back with a summoner who's plant eodilon will specialize in tripping. Being knocked prone is what got his character so... it's basically turn-about on tactics,
@Arcady:
Huh I might have to look into that…is that a feat, or the Shield Ally? I was definitely looking at the shield ally because the blocking is 100% a great use of reaction if I’m not near an ally to protect.
Yeah shield ally.
On druid. My druid is animal, so I get my tactics with my animal companion at the cost of losing one of my actions to give my wolf 2. The wolf has the hitpoints of a flanker (like a rogue more or less). So I can't tank with it, but with a 40 speed I can run around and help the others set up flanking.
Back to Champion - kopesh for tripping would be very potent. Tripping people makes them easy to hit AND they lose actions standing back up AND they have a penalty to attacking you while prone AND they move slower while prone... so... it's a very powerful move to be good at trips and knockdowns.
The guy who lost his PC last session in our game is coming back with a summoner who's plant eodilon will specialize in tripping. Being knocked prone is what got his character so... it's basically turn-about on tactics,
Ahh yeah, that makes sense. Shield Ally looks phenomenal
Oooh that’s a good strategy, I had been looking at Bear for a companion if I did that but a mobile Wolf does sound really nice to help out with flanks
That’s what I thought, yeah. Using the khopesh to trip sounds like it would be fun to throw into the rotation; move in->trip-> move out could deny up to two actions from an enemy if there’s no one else within their reach
Ahhhh I actually love that he’s taking what killed him as his new main strat! That’s really fitting lol
Bard.
@Arcady:
It seems like most of the interesting actions in PF2 are attributed to the martial classes to the exclusion of the casters.
This is one reason I currently like the Druid and the Cloistered Cleric.
Druid: animal and wild open up more tactical angles for me. However as you noted on reddit - if you do this as a healer you're giving up most of your higher ranked spells for heal, and then you're stock-piling staves and wands... However if you play it more offensively or in between you keep a wide set of play options.
Cleric: if you've got a lot of undead enemies your heal font suddenly becomes a massive AoE attack spell. If not - picking the right domain can open up play options. BUT not as many as you'll get from druid.
The cleric argument I just gave... really only works for me. It has the same flaws as any other caster, I just happen to like that particular set of limitations. But the druid with an animal or wildshape does objectively open up more tactics.
Bard is not fun as a main character unless you enjoy playing the ultimate support class. Your eyes will glaze over from doing the same thing round after round.
Since it is your first foray into PF2, I would keep it simple.
Make a Maul fighter with Champion or cleric dedication.
Cleric to heal, buff, and debuff. Warpriest with a ranged weapon is usually nice.
The last guy as a gunslinger will probably be fine.
The extra cleric heals make things easier as you learn the game as the 2 action heal is a mistake or bad round reset in PF2.
@Ched Greyfell
I was looking at Bard, but it seems…frightfully repetitive. Any ways to make it less so?
@Deriven Firelion
That’s kinda what I thought when I looked at it, yeah. The power is evident for sure, but it seems so repetitive and cyclical.
I was thinking of a second Fighter, but I don’t want to step on our Fighter’s toes too much. What do you mean by the 2-action Heal being a mistake or bad round reset?
And as an aside, how much would a party suffer if it didn’t have a caster at all? Having never played PF2 before it’s kinda hard to judge, but stuff like Detect Magic and Read Aura look really important
@Ched Greyfell
I was looking at Bard, but it seems…frightfully repetitive. Any ways to make it less so?
I typically see bards just spaming inspire courage and a cantrip.
Make your lingering composition check and get yourself a ranged weapon and some skills.
@Ched Greyfell
I was looking at Bard, but it seems…frightfully repetitive. Any ways to make it less so?
@Deriven Firelion
That’s kinda what I thought when I looked at it, yeah. The power is evident for sure, but it seems so repetitive and cyclical.
I was thinking of a second Fighter, but I don’t want to step on our Fighter’s toes too much. What do you mean by the 2-action Heal being a mistake or bad round reset?
And as an aside, how much would a party suffer if it didn’t have a caster at all? Having never played PF2 before it’s kinda hard to judge, but stuff like Detect Magic and Read Aura look really important
2 action heal heals a d8+8 per level. If you get rocked in combat which is going to happen at low level for sure, it can get you back up and ready to go. Since the cleric has the most raw healing power, it can get you back on your feet as you get a feel for how PF2 works and it's level of difficulty.
@Gortle:
That’s where my mind went to immediately as well, yeah. It looks powerful support for the martials, but I feel like it could get kinda boring. Then again, it would probably be better at higher levels once there are more spell slots to throw around
@Deriven Firelion:
Ahhhh that makes a lot of sense when you put it that way! That is a lot of healing, especially at level 1. Would you recommend going along with the conventional recommendation of Cloistered Cleric, or more in line with what Arcady recommended (Warpriest with the Blessed One archetype)?
@Gortle:
That’s where my mind went to immediately as well, yeah. It looks powerful support for the martials, but I feel like it could get kinda boring. Then again, it would probably be better at higher levels once there are more spell slots to throw around
@Deriven Firelion:
Ahhhh that makes a lot of sense when you put it that way! That is a lot of healing, especially at level 1. Would you recommend going along with the conventional recommendation of Cloistered Cleric, or more in line with what Arcady recommended (Warpriest with the Blessed One archetype)?
Given you're a newer group, war priest would be fine. More armor and defense with some combat ability along with the healing.
Once you get a feel for game math and play to higher levels, Cloistered Cleric becomes a better option. But both start with Trained in casting and Cloistered doesn't boost to expert until level 7. By that time you'll have a feel for how things go and can adjust accordingly.
A warpriest focused on buffing and healing keep the group going fine with a fighter and gunslinger.
@Gortle:
That’s where my mind went to immediately as well, yeah. It looks powerful support for the martials, but I feel like it could get kinda boring. Then again, it would probably be better at higher levels once there are more spell slots to throw around
@Deriven Firelion:
Ahhhh that makes a lot of sense when you put it that way! That is a lot of healing, especially at level 1. Would you recommend going along with the conventional recommendation of Cloistered Cleric, or more in line with what Arcady recommended (Warpriest with the Blessed One archetype)?
Given you're a newer group, war priest would be fine. More armor and defense with some combat ability along with the healing.
Once you get a feel for game math and play to higher levels, Cloistered Cleric becomes a better option. But both start with Trained in casting and Cloistered doesn't boost to expert until level 7. By that time you'll have a feel for how things go and can adjust accordingly.
A warpriest focused on buffing and healing keep the group going fine with a fighter and gunslinger.
That makes a lot of sense when you put it that way, yeah. Warpriest really does seem better than Cloistered up until level 7 when you really get down to it.
I think that really does put my choices down to either Warpriest or Champion
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I think that really does put my choices down to either Warpriest or Champion
Open up pathbuilder and make both of them. Then pick their abilities for several levels. I personally do this to level 10.
That will help you get an idea of whether or not you like what you can get out of the choice.
If your group are all new - hopefully your GM is also open to letting people redesign their PC up to a certain point (like say, for the first month or so), or swap to a different one if a choice isn't working out.
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Assurance on Medicine and raising it to Expert is quite sufficient for a long time.
Champion using Blade Ally to put Shifting on your weapon is awesome because of all the traits you can then access.
My current setup with my Champion of Torag (MC Giant Barbarian) is a +1 Striking Returning Thrower's Bandolier with a Large silver dagger and a Large cold iron dagger in it. During his daily preparations, my Paladin prays to Torag and shifts the most useful dagger into a warhammer.
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At this point I’m between a Thaumaturge, a Sun Domain Cloistered Cleric, or a Champion taking Deity’s Domain for Sun Domain.
I'd split the difference and build a Cleric with the Champion multiclass archetype, with high STR for better armor. Cast bless to buff your allies, fear to debuff foes, and use Trip to debuff foes even more (requiresd Athletics).
I also recommend any Champion take the Wrestler archetype, to debuff foes and to force them to attack you.
I also recommend any Champion take the Wrestler archetype, to debuff foes and to force them to attack you.
With what free hands? As a champion, you're already struggling between a desire for a shield and a desire for a two-handed weapon. You could go two-hander and temporarily release for your grabs, but that's starting to impose a very serious cost in actions.
...and going wrestler is also eating up feats, when Champion is already pretty feat-hungry
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I also recommend any Champion take the Wrestler archetype, to debuff foes and to force them to attack you.With what free hands? As a champion, you're already struggling between a desire for a shield and a desire for a two-handed weapon. You could go two-hander and temporarily release for your grabs, but that's starting to impose a very serious cost in actions.
...and going wrestler is also eating up feats, when Champion is already pretty feat-hungry
Free hand + Shield. You won't out-damage any other martial anyways, so it doesn't make sense to try. It helps to have a decent unarmed attack, d6 or d8, especially one that leaves open
The Champion is not at all feat hungry. I can't think of a single must-have feat, and the only champion class feat I took is desperate prayer. But I would also never use a two-handed weapon, so YMMV.
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Free hand + Shield. You won't out-damage any other martial anyways, so it doesn't make sense to try. It helps to have a decent unarmed attack, d6 or d8, especially one that leaves open
The Champion is not at all feat hungry. I can't think of a single must-have feat, and the only champion class feat I took is desperate prayer. But I would also never use a two-handed weapon, so YMMV.
Yeah... going through all of the reasons I disagree with you here would involve a massive derail, and I don't want to do that. I'm just going to say "I disagree profoundly" and leave it at that.
I will say that my preferred variety of Champion is Paladin. I acknowledge that some of the weapon selection incentives are different for Redeemers and Liberators, and that I haven't looked into those as deeply.
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Not sure why people think a bard is boring or a one trick pony. Lingering composition means you need to use you Inspire once or twice in a combat. Get swashbuckler dedication and get one for all, antagonize if you feel you want some action, guardians deflection if you want to help your martials. Don't be afraid to stand close to the martials. With this you have a lot of possible actions you can choose from (composition, one for all, intimidate, attack) with some spells on top of that. Occult list is super for combat effectiveness. Command, invis, hideous laughter, roaring applause, dispel magic, synesthesia etc. Or just use damage spells if that is more your thing.