I'll nominate the Fascinated condition. I still have absolutely no idea how it should work. If a fight is already going, does it prevent someone from fighting or affect their targeting choices? If a fight hasn't started yet, but starts nearby after the condition is imposed, what does the Fascinated creature do?
You are compelled to focus your attention on something, distracting you from whatever else is going on around you. You take a –2 status penalty to Perception and skill checks, and you can't use actions with the concentrate trait unless they or their intended consequences are related to the subject of your fascination (as determined by the GM). For instance, you might be able to Seek and Recall Knowledge about the subject, but you likely couldn't cast a spell targeting a different creature. This condition ends if a creature uses hostile actions against you or any of your allies.
I think everything beyond that is gamemaster and context dependent
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If a fight is already going, does it prevent someone from fighting or affect their targeting choices?
I have always found the fascinated condition to be quite useless during combat because of that last sentence.
This condition ends if a creature uses hostile actions against you or any of your allies.
So whatever it does, it is going to do it for so short of a period of time that it isn't worth stressing over.
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Yeah one of your allies who isn't affected can slap you in the face and that's enough.
In PF1 fascinated was somewhat strong because you didn't get to act. It was easy to break then too, but it made for a tactical "puzzle" because it meant some of your teammates should make it a high priority to get you back into the fight, instead of whatever else they had planned for next round.
In PF2 the value of the condition is a lot lower and it's even easier to break. It's become a bit pointless.
Knowing the initiative order, fascinate is good against spellcasters.
For example, let's say that there's an enemy healer.
You can delay your initiative just before their turn.
On your turn you strike one or two times, then make them fascinated to you.
On their turn,or until you or an ally use an hostile action against them or one of their allies, the healer has no choices but to cast on you.
Ofc they can delay their initiative, but you and your allies can do the same, pushing the spellcaster to the bottom.
That is such an edge case. IF they fail their save they drop once in initiative.
Of course there is nothing stopping them from throwing something at you breaking their own fascination then having two actions to Heal anyway.Fascination is so bad it is a waste of space. Fix it or delete it.
Fascinate has always felt like a dedicated out of combat condition for me for the reasons stated above. It works great when you want your Bard to create a distraction for the party in a social encounter or something like that but falls apart entirely once a combat starts up due to the hostile actions clause. One reasonable homebrew fix is to nix the bit about hostile actions against your allies breaking it. Turns it into "Dominate Person Lite".
I also see it as an out-of-combat utility, though for a low-level Condition, the chance to steal an action (or more if lucky) can make it worthwhile. It's a matter of adjusted one's expectations because "Fascinated" does sound rather potent, when it's more like "intrigued", rather mild.
"Fascinated" does sound rather potent, when it's more like "intrigued", rather mild.
Agreed. But a combat effective fascinated should exist just like the old Hypnotic Pattern. It is part of the game that is gone.
I mean perhaps previous versions of the spell are too strong for PF2, but can we please have some magic in this space?
Even if the spellcaster would hit the one that put the fascinated condition in them they'd still be fascinated..
Of course there is nothing stopping them from throwing something at you breaking their own fascination then having two actions to Heal anyway.
True.
Fascinated condition breaks only if the enemies of the fascinated target do something harmful to the fascinated target or their allies.
False.
Any creature is hostile to you or one of your allies. You can just slap your allies and that breaks you out. A Strike does not have the concentrate tag - so you can hit whoever you like. It just has to be histile to someone on your side to break the condition. In fact you can hit your self.So it is only useful against a caster, who isn't happy to wait for anyone else (from either side) to go in the initiative order.
Terribly inefficient.
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Worth noting that in PF1 simply having someone draw a sword or cast any spell would break fascinated. So it's not like the condition being not really well suited for combat is a new phenomena either.
Of course there is nothing stopping them from throwing something at you breaking their own fascination then having two actions to Heal anyway.
I don't believe you can break your own fascination in such a way.
That's like saying "I don't get burned by the fireball because I sidestepped it." Sorry, but if you didn't crit succeed on your save, that isn't happening.
This isn't kids playing cowboys and Indians where everyone shouts "I got you!" and "no you didn't!" This is adults playing wizards and warriors. There are rules to be followed. A creature is not you. The structure of the paragraph under the Fascinated condition makes it clear that when it is referring to you, it says "you" and "a creature" when it is referring to something that is not you.
Trying to argue whether you can or cannot break your own fascination is not going to be an easy argument from either side. That is because, like so many other things, the GM is the final arbiter on what does and does not constitute a hostile action.
It is entirely possible for a GM to rule that you can spend an action to slap yourself or an ally to break the condition. A slap could do damage, even if that doesn't translate to "HP" damage. Maybe they even make you perform an unarmed attack, dealing damage. That qualifies as a Hostile action most of the time.
It is entirely possible that the GM decides instead that, due to your slap acting as a treatment for a condition, it does NOT qualify as a hostile action so does not end the fascination. See Risky Surgery, an obviously non-hostile action which always deals damage to the recipient. Would Risky Surgery constitute a hostile action?
Expect table variation.
Worth noting that in PF1 simply having someone draw a sword or cast any spell would break fascinated. So it's not like the condition being not really well suited for combat is a new phenomena either.
You do know that drawing a sword can be interpreted as a hostile action in PF2?
I mean it is GM dependant, but that could still be enough to break fascinated.
Trying to argue whether you can or cannot break your own fascination is not going to be an easy argument from either side. That is because, like so many other things, the GM is the final arbiter on what does and does not constitute a hostile action.
It is entirely possible for a GM to rule that you can spend an action to slap yourself or an ally to break the condition. A slap could do damage, even if that doesn't translate to "HP" damage. Maybe they even make you perform an unarmed attack, dealing damage. That qualifies as a Hostile action most of the time.
It is entirely possible that the GM decides instead that, due to your slap acting as a treatment for a condition, it does NOT qualify as a hostile action so does not end the fascination. See Risky Surgery, an obviously non-hostile action which always deals damage to the recipient. Would Risky Surgery constitute a hostile action?
Expect table variation.
Absolutely it is all over the place and just not fit for purpose as useful rules. Fascinated and the definition of hostile are a mess in PF2.
Even in the worst case where the GM makes fascinated stick, the victims of fascination are still allowed to attack - they just can't cast spells until someone else strikes them back. If they really want they can just delay slightly. Is that really going to be so long? Not enough to be useful.
"Fascinated" does sound rather potent, when it's more like "intrigued", rather mild.Agreed. But a combat effective fascinated should exist just like the old Hypnotic Pattern. It is part of the game that is gone.
I mean perhaps previous versions of the spell are too strong for PF2, but can we please have some magic in this space?
Between stunned, slowed, paralyzed, petrified, fleeing, and whatever you call Calm Emotions, the game doesn't really feel lacking for ways to make someone waste their actions.
If anything, I'd rather they lean further into the out of combat uses for Fascinate by increasing the perception penalty to -4, and maybe making spells like Hypnotic Pattern less obviously offensive tool that isn't as limited by proximity. Having to cast it directly onthe guards to distract them undercuts the point.
The other thing you could do is make the condition treat all other creatures and objects as concealed. That could give it some modest combat applications, but would more importantly allow people to Hide and Sneak by.
Between stunned, slowed, paralyzed, petrified, fleeing, and whatever you call Calm Emotions, the game doesn't really feel lacking for ways to make someone waste their actions.
There is nothing in the illusion/enchantment space on the arcane list. Calm Emotions being a mental effect.
I'd like to see something like on a failure unable to concentrate or attack, till the round after fascinated breaks.If anything, I'd rather they lean further into the out of combat uses for Fascinate by increasing the perception penalty to -4, and maybe making spells like Hypnotic Pattern less obviously offensive tool that isn't as limited by proximity. Having to cast it directly onthe guards to distract them undercuts the point.
The other thing you could do is make the condition treat all other creatures and objects as concealed. That could give it some modest combat applications, but would more importantly allow people to Hide and Sneak by.
I like these too.