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I took minor issue with the implementation of the simplified ancestries optional system in this thread Here.
With 2R on the horizon, these issues have a chance to be addressed in one of a few ways:
1.) Ensuring every ancestry has a level 1 ancestry feat called "Ancestry Lore". Like Elf Lore or Goblin Lore.
This is my preferred solution, though it butts had with the consistent stance that Humans are so varied and widespread on Golarion that no one more feat could/ should cover the entirety of humanity.
2.) Make a general exception in the subsystem for ancestries without an appropriate feat. Massive like a *If the ancestry you selected doesn't have an appropriate feat, work with your GM to find a replacement".
This feels like the most likely solution, to me.
3.) Make specific exceptions for all the ancestries without appropriate feats. Like "A gnome PC receives Gnome Obsession in lieu of an ancestral Lore feat".
This seems bad for future- proofing reasons.
4.) Larger changes. Rework or removal of the subsystem entirely.
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I think it sucks you are forced to take a feat to know about your own kind
Can’t a dm rule my ELF knows stuff about ELVES without the need of a lore feat?
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I think it sucks you are forced to take a feat to know about your own kind
Can’t a dm rule my ELF knows stuff about ELVES without the need of a lore feat?
... just take Elf Lore. Like, the skill. It's a skill. You don't need the feat to take it.
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I think it sucks you are forced to take a feat to know about your own kind
Can’t a dm rule my ELF knows stuff about ELVES without the need of a lore feat?
You're not forced to take a feat to know about your own kind, but you do need lore to specialize in such knowledge. If you don't have elven lore, you still know things, but growing up around elves doesn't necessarily teach you things like "elves were originally aliens from another world". You can make society rolls for that if you don't have elven lore, same as everyone else, and that can be done untrained.
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I think it sucks you are forced to take a feat to know about your own kind
Can’t a dm rule my ELF knows stuff about ELVES without the need of a lore feat?
Does that include elves not raised by elves and have never even seen another elf? Remember, that the ancestry includes elves of every possible background and education: default knowledge shouldn't be assumed. For instance, not every American recognizes the former vice president's picture: 'I'm an American so I should know' doesn't jive with the facts in the real world any more than 'I'm an elf so I should know elf stuff' does.
Secondly, not having the lore doesn't mean your elf doesn't know about elves: the Dm, for instance, could allow rolls for such characters that they wouldn't give non-elves or allow lower rolls because of it. What Lore Elf does is give you extensive knowledge about elves: so if you're looking for some kind of ancient or esoteric elf stuff, your character might know and anything about elves should be at a lower DC for you too.
You're not forced to take a feat to know about your own kind, but you do need lore to specialize in such knowledge. If you don't have elven lore, you still know things, but growing up around elves doesn't necessarily teach you things like "elves were originally aliens from another world". You can make society rolls for that if you don't have elven lore, same as everyone else, and that can be done untrained.I think it sucks you are forced to take a feat to know about your own kind
Can’t a dm rule my ELF knows stuff about ELVES without the need of a lore feat?
So like kind of like IRL where someone can know about their society and culture and stuff like that but otherwise might not know the gritty details of their history
Like how most Americans know about the revolutionary war and George Washington, but not the specific battles or details about George?
You're not forced to take a feat to know about your own kind, but you do need lore to specialize in such knowledge. If you don't have elven lore, you still know things, but growing up around elves doesn't necessarily teach you things like "elves were originally aliens from another world". You can make society rolls for that if you don't have elven lore, same as everyone else, and that can be done untrained.I think it sucks you are forced to take a feat to know about your own kind
Can’t a dm rule my ELF knows stuff about ELVES without the need of a lore feat?
So like kind of like IRL where someone can know about their society and culture and stuff like that but otherwise might not know the gritty details of their history
Like how most Americans know about the revolutionary war and George Washington, but not the specific battles or details about George?
Yeah, and how I as an American still know about the French Revolution to a similar degree. There's a lot of stuff that even an untrained society check can cover.
You're not forced to take a feat to know about your own kind, but you do need lore to specialize in such knowledge. If you don't have elven lore, you still know things, but growing up around elves doesn't necessarily teach you things like "elves were originally aliens from another world". You can make society rolls for that if you don't have elven lore, same as everyone else, and that can be done untrained.I think it sucks you are forced to take a feat to know about your own kind
Can’t a dm rule my ELF knows stuff about ELVES without the need of a lore feat?
So like kind of like IRL where someone can know about their society and culture and stuff like that but otherwise might not know the gritty details of their history
Like how most Americans know about the revolutionary war and George Washington, but not the specific battles or details about George?
It's like the difference between your average person's knowledge about their own country and someone majoring in that country's studies, like American Studies, as their major in college: you can expect the later to know more and have a greater grasp of the material. You could also compare it to someone Global Studies, which would be like someone with Society, that has studied about every humanoid culture.
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Instead of Human Lore, perhaps humans could get a lore related to their nationality or the terrain they grew up in?
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Instead of Human Lore, perhaps humans could get a lore related to their nationality or the terrain they grew up in?
This seems a potential viable solution. I'd hope for examples to clarify designer intent.
Like would a human from Sandpoint get Sandpoint Lore? Magnimar Lore? Could they take Varisia Lore? Saga Lands Lore?I think probably one of the middle two make the most sense, as far as scope is concerned, with the foremost being too make and the lattermost being too broad.
Hence the desire for clarification.
Instead of Human Lore, perhaps humans could get a lore related to their nationality or the terrain they grew up in?
Though I feel like that could be something any ancestry could get
Elves may have their own culture but they are still spread out
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Anyone can take any Lore skill, yes.
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Just like; a fun lil fact; if you don't want to spend that skill point on elf lore because you're short on skills, Society has your back for being good at knowing stuff about culture.
Aside from that, the DC for "common knowledge" facets of culture probably uses the trained simple DC; probably even with the easy or very easy adjustment depending on just how common that is; making the DC 10 for most stuff, and like 8 or 5 for things likes "what kind of entertainment is really popular now", so even untrained, you won't really struggle; and this is assuming your DM even makes you roll at all. I've personally never been in a game where the DM made me roll to know basic etiquette and history of the culture my character was raise in
I would also like to see a greater selection of Ancestry lore feats. It is not quite so simple as taking a skill increase to learn your specific ancestry lore. From a more mechanical view, it is spending an Ancestry feat to get trained in two skills and trained in one lore. More ancestries should have it as an option. It may feel a little narrow to say every member of an Ancestry knows three particular skills, but I think the optional nature of feats keeps that in balance. Fortunately this is pretty easy to address at table level with your GM.
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I would also like to see a greater selection of Ancestry lore feats. It is not quite so simple as taking a skill increase to learn your specific ancestry lore. From a more mechanical view, it is spending an Ancestry feat to get trained in two skills and trained in one lore. More ancestries should have it as an option. It may feel a little narrow to say every member of an Ancestry knows three particular skills, but I think the optional nature of feats keeps that in balance. Fortunately this is pretty easy to address at table level with your GM.
The solid majority of ancestries have an appropriate feat to become trained in two skills and a lore skill*.
Only Human, Gnome, Fleshwarp, Kashrishi, Poppet, Skeleton, Sprite ancestries don't have an "Ancestry Lore" feat.
Most of the versatile heritages have one as well, except for Beastkin and Ganzi.
*(Shisk Lore grants training in 3 Lore skills of your choice plus Shisk Lore, instead of 2 skills and a lore skill)
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I think it sucks you are forced to take a feat to know about your own kind
Can’t a dm rule my ELF knows stuff about ELVES without the need of a lore feat?
Does that include elves not raised by elves and have never even seen another elf? Remember, that the ancestry includes elves of every possible background and education: default knowledge shouldn't be assumed. For instance, not every American recognizes the former vice president's picture: 'I'm an American so I should know' doesn't jive with the facts in the real world any more than 'I'm an elf so I should know elf stuff' does.
Secondly, not having the lore doesn't mean your elf doesn't know about elves: the Dm, for instance, could allow rolls for such characters that they wouldn't give non-elves or allow lower rolls because of it. What Lore Elf does is give you extensive knowledge about elves: so if you're looking for some kind of ancient or esoteric elf stuff, your character might know and anything about elves should be at a lower DC for you too.
That led to a funny moment in my Ironfang Invasion campaign.
The elf ranger Zinfandel was introduced as a trainee studying under retired human Chernasardo Ranger Aubrin the Green in Phaendar. The player checked a map and selected Radya's Hollow, a village 50 miles away and just outside the Fangwood Forest, as Zinfandel's home village. Zinfandel did not train in Society nor Elf Lore. He did train in Cooking Lore, claiming that his parents grew grapes and made wine and other food products. And he gained Forest Lore from his homebrew background as a ranger trainee.
Two modules later, the party visited Radya's Hollow, a mining town of humans and dwarves. I worked with Zinfandel's player to add Zinfandel's parents and brother to the village, the only three elves there. This explained why Zinfandel knew no elf lore.
Two more modules later, the party was talking with some NPCs and a question came up about elven history. All the NPCs looked toward Zinfandel, the only elf in the group. Zinfandel shrugged his shoulders and said, "Don't ask me. I'm from Radya's Hollow and don't know a thing about elven history."
On the other hand, Zinfandel is a great cook.