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I've played a bit my Alchemists after Treasure Vault (a mid level Dexterity-based generalist with Chirurgeon Research Field and a low level Strength-based Mutagenist) and I feel I can now speak about the impact of Treasure Vault on the Alchemist as it has been, in my opinion, very important. I'll cover the classic builds from worse to best.
Toxicologist (red)
You always have a loser, and Treasure Vault just killed the Toxicologist. I've tried to see what could be done with Poison Concentrator and the Toxicologist's first and thirteenth level abilities and the only bonus I managed to find before level 17 and outside some crazy shenanigans using Uncommon/Rare options from APs is a +1 to poison DC at level 9. With the release of so many poisons, this Research Field is now mostly useless. If you want to play a Toxicologist, just take another Research Field.
Chirurgeon (yellow)
Well, there's a big change with Treasure Vault: Chirurgeon is now a thing. If you want to play a healing focused Alchemist, then it's possible: Sip a Choker-Arm Mutagen for reach and deliver a lot more healing elixirs than in the past. As Choker-Arm Mutagen kills your weapon ability, you need to find elsewhere your offensive potential: Wizard/Witch Dedication for spells or Summoner Dedication for the Eidolon (as you are nearly the only build able to get anything out of it). Unfortunately, your healing ability really starts at level 5 while healing is so strong at low level. Also, you won't feel that much of an Alchemist as half of the time you'll be casting Electric Arc on enemies. It's not a good build, but it's a playable one.
Generalist (green)
Before Treasure Vault, the generalist was in my opinion the best Alchemist build. With Treasure Vault, it has changed as specialization now pays. Still, the generalist is a solid choice. For Research Field, I feel that Chirurgeon is the best one if you intend to increase Crafting. Otherwise, you should take Mutagenist.
Bomber (green/blue)
I think everyone knows what is the biggest change for the Bomber: The Skunk Bomb. The single best item from Treasure Vault but also the most imbalancing as the Bomber has been completely rewritten because of it. The main drawback of the Bomber was that Bombs were dropping in efficiency past level 11, ending at the same level than a martial secondary attack at level 20. With the Skunk Bomb (as a Perpetual Infusion), the Bomber switches to a debuffer at high level and stays perfectly relevant.
Still, there are 2 pain points with the Bomber. The first one are the first 6 levels. These levels are hard for most Alchemists due to the lack of reagents, but bombing is especially costly. And it's also demanding in terms of feats preventing you to take Dedications like Wizard/Witch/Beastmaster to give you at will abilities during these tough levels. The second pain point is poison immunity at high level. It will prevent both your poisons and Skunk Bombs to work, greatly reducing your efficiency. These 2 issues can be alleviated with Free Archetype, allowing you to get more of a Bomber/generalist build and as such putting the Bomber among the best Alchemist builds.
As a side note, I only speak about the Skunk Bomb for the Bomber as one issue this Bomb has is to affect allies, debuffing them as much as enemies. If you find a way to immune your fellow party members to your Skunk Bombs, they become available to all Research Fields with Perpetual Breadth.
Mutagenist (blue)
And here's the great winner, mostly because of a single item: The Collar of the Shifting Spider. The Collar solves a lot of pain points for the Mutagenist: Even when surprised, you don't need any action to be under your Mutagen. It opens up all the weapon builds prior to level 11 (as Bestial Mutagen is really weak during the single digit levels). And it also opens up the ability to buff your party members with Mutagens, something that was much much harder before its release.
The Energy Mutagen is the second item I find important. First, you can imbibe a few of them every morning for Mutagenic Resurgence, so you can now exploit weaknesses or protect yourself against a specific energy type. Also, it's much easier to give it to teammates as its drawbacks are extremely manageable and its bonuses are super nice for melee martials. It should become a classic.
There are other Mutagens I find extremely solid choices, especially the Titanic Fury Mutagen that combines a great reach with a very nice offensive boost.
And the Weapon Siphon also helps the Mutagenist a lot at low level. During its first levels, mine was able to compete with other martials in terms of damage output thanks to the combination of Weapon Siphon, Poison and the occasional Energy Mutagen.
Overall, the Mutagenist is really the nicest Alchemist build to play: As a Strength-based martial it is quite efficient at low level. It also has a low reagent consumption and even when out of reagents it keeps most of its efficiency. And at high level if you switch to Bestial Mutagen you have both of your hands free so you can deliver Elixirs in the middle of the fight.
As a side note, I only speak about the Skunk Bomb for the Bomber as one issue this Bomb has is to affect allies, debuffing them as much as enemies. If you find a way to immune your fellow party members to your Skunk Bombs, they become available to all Research Fields with Perpetual Breadth.
Unless your opponent is completely surrounded by your allies. You can easily solve the friend fire with Directional Bombs. Your allies just need to know the minimum tactical to avoid stay at the wrong side of the opponent.
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Doesn't the toxicologist at least have going for it that it can bring its prepared skunk bombs up to class DC? With the bomber, you have to choose between using 2 actions plus getting the good DC and using 1 action, but only having a subpar DC. The item seems so strong, that's gotta count for something.
And you can still avoid debuffing your allies by getting directional bombs with any non-bomber field
That's only if you interpret "alchemical poison" as having the tags "alchemical" and "poison", as opposed to the item catagory "alchemical poisons". RAI seems to be the latter, but I wont complain if I'm wrong
Doesn't the toxicologist at least have going for it that it can bring its prepared skunk bombs up to class DC?
My point is not that you can't build a Toxicologist that is functional, but that the Research Field is outclassed by the others. What is the point in going Toxicologist if you can go Bomber, benefit from the Skunk Bomb as Perpetual but also have usable level 1 and 13 abilities?
The Toxicologist's issue is that its unique abilities are just not working (outside shenanigans, I must admit I've found some pretty juicy things when searching but I hardly see a GM allowing that).And you can still avoid debuffing your allies by getting directional bombs with any non-bomber field
Unless your opponent is completely surrounded by your allies. You can easily solve the friend fire with Directional Bombs. Your allies just need to know the minimum tactical to avoid stay at the wrong side of the opponent.
Definitely, all Research Fields can use the Skunk Bomb to some extent if they take the proper feats (and without feats, too). Its just that if you want to maximize the Skunk Bomb, you'll need it as Perpetual Infusion, with preferably Dual Weapon Thrower (so you can throw 2 of them with maximized efficiency), Sticky Bomb, and a way to avoid splashing your allies. Directional Bombs work, but if your allies are flanking you may need to move, which is strongly reducing the combo. Also, you need so many feats to make Skunk Bombs shine that I think it's better to go Bomber and reduce the feat need (and it's also quite natural for a choice).
I have to say "really" expected more alternatives in terms of "options" ( these are the alchemist "spells" they prepare during the daily preparations, like they were a spellcaster ) and "some sort of rewamp" for the whole class.
I disagree with you, but that's certainly because I like the Alchemist class and I'd be sad if the class got revamped into something I dislike.
Also, I've compared the Alchemist with itself. I must admit I have hard time comparing the Alchemist to other classes considering how unique its contribution is. As I'm playing, lately, a Strength-based Mutagenist which is very much operating like a melee martial with some Alchemy on the side, I feel it's very much on par with other martials. But I'd need to play it up to very high level to see if the comparison stays on point.Overall, I like my Alchemists and they are properly contributing. But I play them in PFS, which is also a very specific environment. I'd not play my Chirurgeon in an AP for example (but I think the Mutagenist would fit, if it's a 1-20 AP).
ps: I also don't get how making the class more "viable", "dynamic" and "likeable" might end up "necessarily" ruining the class rather than enhancing it ( for you I mean. There should be a chance that the new one could be as good as, if not better, the old one, shouldn't there? )
Call that resistance to change if you want. You always know what you can lose but you don't know what you will gain. Also, I've seen people liking the Alchemist and others disliking it, and in general the ones disliking it are calling for a more straightforward class, which trumps its actual design. So I'm cautious on any major change.
I also think there is no need for a major change. Treasure Vault brings the Alchemist to par, in my opinion. It may not be the best class out there, but it's fine. My main gripes would be that it is clunky with traps and tax feats. So the design is ugly compared to the other classes, but once you get it, it works fine.You may like the alchemist "the way it is now", but reading your posts seems that you always and only push towards effectiveness and meta, reasons why it's just normal not being bothered with having plentiful of items that you are never going to use ( because you found out that the 5% among the list is what is effificent and you are going to use regardless the alchemist you are going to make ).
Quite the contrary. If there's one class that can take advantage of absolutely any formula in its formula book, it's the Alchemist. My Chirurgeon has roughly half of the formulas up to her level in her formula book. The right item for the job properly defines the Alchemist class.
Now, I fully agree that I value effectiveness (but not meta at all, I'm more of an anti-meta guy, I don't play Bard, Fighter nor Cleric, I play Alchemist, Summoner and Superstition Barbarians among others). I like the tactical aspects the D&D and Pathfinder games bring to the table as much as I love to roleplay my characters. These are games I specifically enjoy.
I also think there is a "public" for conversations about effectiveness. When you want to build a character, having advice on how to properly play it and how effective you'll be is interesting, especially if you don't know the game much.
I disagree on the toxicologist.
Imo it gained quite substantial buffs. Albeit some of them are not in the Alchemy section.
First of all they can as well take skunk bomb as their Perpetual which by itself is really good, but also can prepare them, especially at early levels and be much better with them than even bombers.
The throwing weapons, especially the chakri, alongside the thrower pouch is a massive buff for them, enabling to have all of their attacks poisoned without spending actions (which is the case for melee) and without wasting poisons on misses (which is the case for bows).
That alongside the +1 to DCs
And the ability to get easy ranged flat-footed (the camouflage potion) is an easy way to proc the -2 to enemy DCs (which stacks with skunk for -3).
Lastly, the undead poison, while not ideal, at least gives them something to do vs a big poison immune family.
All together form a pretty good chassis.
But that has nothing to do with the Toxicologist itself. You can build a Mutagenist who will benefit from all these bonuses while benefiting also from the Mutagenist features. The issue I have with the Toxicologist is that its main abilities don't do anything anymore since the release of the new poisons. The only thing the Toxicologist Research Field does is giving 3 poisons for one reagent. That's not enough to justify an entire Research Field.
As a side note, I only speak about the Skunk Bomb for the Bomber as one issue this Bomb has is to affect allies, debuffing them as much as enemies. If you find a way to immune your fellow party members to your Skunk Bombs, they become available to all Research Fields with Perpetual Breadth.Unless your opponent is completely surrounded by your alliesit's the baseline bomber research field feat
When throwing an alchemical bomb with the splash trait, you can deal splash damage to only your primary target instead of the usual splash area.
I was forgetting about this.
Anyway players that play in a party with alchemists and use tactics to flank usually take the alchemist abilities into consideration. It's expected that the alchemist player talk with the rest of the party asking to avoid them to stay in the opposite sido of the opponents (they can flank by other sides) in order to able to splash another opponents too increasing the overall party effectiveness.
A) not nearly enough poisons to poison all attacks
That's the Toxicologist niche: You produce 3 poisons for 1 reagents.
let alone get the +1 DC which requires double the poisons
Read the Poison Concentrator. It is mostly unusable.
B) no skunk bomb
That's hardly a unique thing. If it's that important to you, then it's a Bomber that you need to play instead of a Mutagenist.
C) no scaling DC on the undead poison
You mean the 1d6 damage poison? Even at level 4 when you get it it's hardly strong. A few levels after, I'm not even sure it's worth the reagent cost.
I encourage you to take some time with the poison list from Treasure Vault to see what you'll get from the Toxicologist's level 1 and 13 abilities.
Mutagenist imo still the weakest spec. Only thing it gained (that not everyone gained) is energy Mutagen.
I can tell you from experience the Mutagenist has been completely revamped with Treasure Vault. I don't know why people consider the Collar of the Shifting Spider is helping as much the Research Field which is all about Mutagens as it is helping the other Research Fields.
Concentrator is usable just fine on the toxicologist
If you ever manage to use it, tell me what shenanigans allowed you to do so. Because the base item is not really usable. But if you have a real example to share, I'm all ears (or eyes).
Collar is amazing, but it's amazing for all alchemists.
And amazinger for the Mutagenist. Now, you may play in situations where you never get the benefit of it as a Mutagenist, if you are never surprised by a fight and can always prebuff beforehand. In my experience, it's rare, but experiences can differ.
Poisoning undead is good. Even if not a lot, free positive damage is good enough.
It's not free, it costs reagents. 1d6 damage are not worth the reagent cost very quickly.
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As a side note, I only speak about the Skunk Bomb for the Bomber as one issue this Bomb has is to affect allies, debuffing them as much as enemies. If you find a way to immune your fellow party members to your Skunk Bombs, they become available to all Research Fields with Perpetual Breadth.Unless your opponent is completely surrounded by your allies. You can easily solve the friend fire with Directional Bombs. Your allies just need to know the minimum tactical to avoid stay at the wrong side of the opponent.
given flanking and different movement speeds, that might be a big ask.
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On daily prep, you spend 2 poisons of the appropriate level and get a single with +1 DC.
First, you need to get a Concentrator. It's expensive, a lot.
Then, it only works for one single level: The level you get it. And sometimes even it doesn't (you definitely use Hunting Spider Venom over Leadenleg with +1 DC). Also, it costs time, 10 minutes, and double the reagent cost. So, no, it doesn't work, there's no real use out of it. The only use case I see is if the GM gives you a Poison Concentrator of a higher level than yours, but then it works for all Research Fields and not just Toxicologist.It's free on the toxicologist (the poison) you can have it as your second stage Perpetual.
You can take it as a Perpetual item at level 11 but +1d6 damage against undeads at level 11 is quite negligible.
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The alchemical poison definition isn't pretty clear. IMO probably any item with both traits are valid for toxicologist unless you'r limiting to only poisons that have Interact actions.
I had no issue at all using concentrator throuout and it was not a higher level.
I'd love to know in details what poisons you produced. Because I looked at all the possibilities and saw nothing of real interest.
I missed the Clown Monarch because I reflexively removed all the PFS illegal options. So, yes, I agree this one is really good and is worth the effort.
I also see at least one reason we don't agree: Your thrown weapon build allows you to choose your poison, where I'm using poison on "main weapons" and as such don't choose it (and go for the best one).
I'm still not 100% convinced (I need some time to move things in my head and see how it could fare) but I see what are our points of disagreement.
I also think you should give a second go to the Mutagenist. The new options are really expending its gameplay. In my opinion, you are stuck with the old close melee Mutagenist who was taking too much damage to stand for long.
I think the OP is focusing a bit too much on research fields as specialists, but if you look at the research builds they don't actually do that much.
Like there's no reason your chirurgeon can't go around throwing bombs, or your toxicologists using mutagens.
So while Mutagens are really good, Mutagens are already resource efficient compared to other alchemical items, which makes Flashback and reagent efficiency much lower value... which imo makes it hard to call it the best research field. I could instead use bombs as an easy to supply backup with adjustable splash and just make my mutagens normally and lose nothing over being a mutagenist (at least until 13, but that's so late it's more of a discussion point for retraining than anything else).
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For example, skunk bomb is great on paper, but you have to hit and the splash debuff has the incapacitation trait. To keep getting better at hitting you have to give up your Apex item bump, so you're giving up a higher DC, making it more likely the enemy saves against the effect. The combined likelihood of hitting and having one of the effects you want isn't great per throw (14-27% or 20% on average across all 20 levels against Average AC and Medium Save). So you'll get what you want after ~4-5 rounds, but you're going to be not getting the effect you want a lot (i.e., unfun math levels way below 70% success rates for sure!).
You are affecting enemies even on a successful save with Skunk Bombs. So you are at around 70% success rate. That's what makes them so good.
I think the OP is focusing a bit too much on research fields as specialists, but if you look at the research builds they don't actually do that much.
I fully agree on Research Fields, but with Treasure Vault what pushes you out of what I call the generalist path, the Alchemist who takes the best out of all worlds, are the Mutagens not the Research Field effects. If you are under Choker-Arm Mutagen as a Chirurgeon, you are bad with Bombs and weapons and as such need to do something else. Also, weapon builds (like the low level Mutagenist) have hard time using Alchemical Items as the action cost incurred is far too high. Specialized Bombers on the other hand can take a crazy amount of Bomb feats, pushing them away from the generalist path because they don't have feats devoted to anything else.
So there's really a notion of specialization now with Treasure Vault, which mostly existed only with Bomber in the past. And even if the Research Fields don't bring much to the table, it's a bit weird to choose a play style and take a Research Field that is not in line with this play style.So while Mutagens are really good, Mutagens are already resource efficient compared to other alchemical items, which makes Flashback and reagent efficiency much lower value...
Mutagenic Flashback is not about reagent efficiency but about adaptability. As a free action, you can get the good reagent for the job, for example to suddenly exploit an elemental weakness with Energy Mutagen. And as it's a class ability it is strong at counteracting Mutagens so you can also use it to switch Mutagen, for example if you are suddenly attracting too much attention while under Fury Mutagen it allows you to switch to Drakeheart in the blink of an eye. It's a much more important feature than it looks like, without it you are limited to the Mutagens you have already imbibed or that are in your Collar.
And reagent efficiency is a massive advantage for an Alchemist. First, at low level, as they are really painful to play through. But even at high level, as it means more reagents for Quick Alchemy, utility and support. Also, the Mutagenist is slightly less constrained when it comes to attributes as Intelligence is not that important to them, when other builds pushes you to 18 Intelligence and 16 in your attack attribute as they use Intelligence for Bomb damage, Poison saves and counteract checks. As such you may end up with slightly less reagents than other builds (I've chosen a 16 in Intelligence for my Mutagenist).
I could instead use bombs as an easy to supply backup with adjustable splash and just make my mutagens normally and lose nothing over being a mutagenist (at least until 13, but that's so late it's more of a discussion point for retraining than anything else).
The Mutagenist is a Strength-based build. At high level, Bestial Mutagen is really impressive damage wise once you grab Flurry of Blows.
Also, there's nothing pushing you to a Dexterity-based build: Finesse builds are weak without extra damage from class features and ranged builds pushes you to either Toxicologist or Bomber.So I don't see how you can switch to Bombs and end up with anything looking remotely like a Mutagenist. What you are describing is closer to what I call a generalist build.