It's strange for me that learning uncommon weapon is easier than learning common weapon.

[Garrise]

Why doesn't Paizo design a common weapon version of Unconventional Weapon.

[graystone]

Garrise wrote:

Why doesn't Paizo design a common weapon version of Unconventional Weapon.

Conventional Weapon?

[Unicore]

Isn’t this feat just the regular, general weapon proficiency feat?

[gesalt]

Unicore wrote:

Isn’t this feat just the regular, general weapon proficiency feat?

Presumably it would include scaling.

[Errenor]

gesalt wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Isn’t this feat just the regular, general weapon proficiency feat?

Presumably it would include scaling.

What I don't understand is how Unconventional Weaponry doesn't. I says not 'you are trained in this weapon', it says 'for the purpose of determining your proficiency, that weapon is a simple/martial weapon'. For me it automatically means that if you get expert/master/legendary in simple/martial weapons, you get it for this weapon too. That's what proficiency means. And yet we have Unconventional Expertise. Bizarre. Am I not seeing something?

[HumbleGamer]

Errenor wrote:

gesalt wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Isn’t this feat just the regular, general weapon proficiency feat?

Presumably it would include scaling.

What I don't understand is how Unconventional Weaponry doesn't. I says not 'you are trained in this weapon', it says 'for the purpose of determining your proficiency, that weapon is a simple/martial weapon'. For me it automatically means that if you get expert/master/legendary in simple/martial weapons, you get it for this weapon too. That's what proficiency means. And yet we have Unconventional Expertise. Bizarre. Am I not seeing something?

I suppose it's there for the wizard class.

not being trained in simple weapons but just in

Quote:

Trained in the club, crossbow, dagger, heavy crossbow, and staff
Trained in unarmed attacks

wouldn't allow them to increase their proficiency past trained, unless unconventional expertise.

[PossibleCabbage]

So the issue is "if I have simple, but not martial, weapon proficiency then I can use unconventional weaponry to get scaling proficiency with a martial uncommon weapon but not a martial common one"?

Since yeah, that's kind of weird. But if you wanted to make the case that you could use unconventional weaponry with a common weapon, I wouldn't object too much. The point of rarity is not to restrict the GM, after all.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

You'd think there would be a Weapon Expertise General feat that lets your Weapon Training in Simple/Martial Weapons (or Advanced weapon) scale based on your base proficiencies.

[Squiggit]

As for why, I think it just wasn't something Paizo considered. They wanted to give humans a weapon feat without having human weapons, so they decided that playing into themes of 'adaptability', they could cherry pick weird weapons.

The idea is sound, but the weird side effect that it suddenly becomes much harder to wield a weapon if it's not weird enough is probably just that.

Plus for better or for worse, Paizo has made upgrading your weapon options in PF2 extremely painful to do, so options being limited and specific falls somewhat in line with that philosophy.

Errenor wrote:

gesalt wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Isn’t this feat just the regular, general weapon proficiency feat?

Presumably it would include scaling.

What I don't understand is how Unconventional Weaponry doesn't. I says not 'you are trained in this weapon', it says 'for the purpose of determining your proficiency, that weapon is a simple/martial weapon'. For me it automatically means that if you get expert/master/legendary in simple/martial weapons, you get it for this weapon too. That's what proficiency means. And yet we have Unconventional Expertise. Bizarre. Am I not seeing something?

Unconventional Expertise is useful for characters that only get partial proficiency. Wizards, Rogues, Bards, and Fighters all have weapon-specific proficiency, rather than general proficiency, so Unconventional Expertise can be useful to them.

[nicholas storm]

I think what's missing is a higher level feat that scales proficiency for weapons. If you look at all the ancestry weapon feats, they only scale the ancestry name weapons for free at level 1. The other weapons require you to buy the level 13 feat to scale (such as short bow for elvish weapon proficiency). They could fix this issue by adding a higher level general feat that scaled weapon proficiency.

[PossibleCabbage]

I don't think there's a problem letting people get "their class's scaling proficiency" with a minor cost in whatever weapon tickles the player's fancy.

I think the only line we really need to hold is that the scaling for when you get bumps is specific to the class. Since the whole "casters get expert at 11", "martials get expert at 5 and master at 13" and "fighters are on a different scaling" is supposed to model how some BAB worked in the previous edition and the fact that the fighter had weapon training for even more accuracy.

[Errenor]

Squiggit wrote:

Unconventional Expertise is useful for characters that only get partial proficiency. Wizards, Rogues, Bards, and Fighters all have weapon-specific proficiency, rather than general proficiency, so Unconventional Expertise can be useful to them.

HumbleGamer wrote:

I suppose it's there for the wizard class. not being trained in simple weapons but just in
wouldn't allow them to increase their proficiency past trained, unless unconventional expertise.

Uh. Well. So for Wizard Unconventional Weaponry is absolutely useless either until lvl 13 and Unconventional Expertise, or until they take Weapon Proficiency (because again Unconventional Weaponry doesn't give trained).

For Fighters it's mostly only access. If they choose uncommon advanced weapon in their group they already get legendary in it with Unconventional Weaponry (because it's martial for them). So only if they take uncommon advanced weapon not from their chosen group, they need Unconventional Expertise, if they want to get legendary (master they have already).
Well, only if 'certain weapons' from Unconventional Expertise means any variant in class features. So specific list of weapons and Fighter's group too, not only big categories simple-martial-advanced.
That really involved...