Lethal unarmed attacks with no penalty?


Advice


Quick question: is there any way (other than being a monk or investing in a multiclass/archetype dedication feat like monk or martial artist) to be able to do lethal damage with non-lethal unarmed attacks without penalty?

Just wondering if there is a rune, or an ancestry feat, or an item... anything that could save me the feat investment.

Thanks in advance!


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Many ancestries and heritages have unarmed lethal attacks. Mostly via ancestry feats.
Some examples:

  • Amurruns have the Clawed Catfolk heritage that gives them claw unarmed attacks that deals 1d6 slashing damage and have the agile, finesse, and unarmed traits (so no nonlethal trait).
  • Goblins have the Razortooth Goblin heritage that gives them jaws unarmed attacks that deals 1d6 piercing damage and have the finesse and unarmed traits (so no nonlethal trait) or can take Tailed Goblin and take the Hard Tail feat that gives them tail unarmed attack that deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage (no traits so no nonlethal trait).
  • Kobolds have the Strongjaw Kobold heritage that gives them jaws unarmed attacks that deals 1d6 piercing damage and have the finesse and unarmed traits (so no nonlethal trait).
  • Leshys have the Cactus Leshy heritage that gives them spine unarmed attacks that deals 1d6 piercing damage and have the finesse and unarmed traits (so no nonlethal trait) and/or can take Seedpod feat that gives them seedpod ranged unarmed attack with a range increment of 10 feet that deals 1d4 bludgeoning damage and gives them some kind of critical specialization effect that on a critical hit, a seedpod bursts, issuing forth a tangle of vegetation that imposes a –10-foot circumstance penalty on the target's Speed for 1 round (again no nonlethal trait).
  • Iruxis have claw unarmed attacks by default that deals 1d4 slashing damage and has the agile and finesse traits (so no nonlethal trait) and have a prety good "arsenal" of unarmed attacks via feats. Sharp Fangs feat gives them fangs unarmed attacks that deals 1d8 piercing damage (no traits so no nonlethal trait) and/or Tail Whip gives them tail unarmed attacks that deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage and has the sweep trait (so no nonlethal trait).
  • Orcs and Half-Orc can take Iron Fists that make your fist unarmed attacks no longer have the nonlethal trait and gain the shove weapon trait and/or take Tusks feat that gives them tusks unarmed attacks that deals 1d6 piercing damage and have the finesse and unarmed traits (so no nonlethal trait).
  • Ysokis can take Vicious Incisors feat that gives them jaws unarmed attacks that deals 1d6 piercing damage and have the finesse and unarmed traits (so no nonlethal trait).
  • Tengus have by default beak unarmed attacks that deals 1d6 piercing damage and has the finesse and unarmed traits (so no nonlethal trait) and if take the Taloned Tengu heritage also takes talons unarmed attacks that deals 1d4 slashing damage and have the agile, finesse, unarmed, and versatile piercing traits (so no nonlethal trait).
  • Changeling versatile heritage can take Slag May or Hag Claws thats gives them claw unarmed attacks that deals 1d6 slashing damage and have the unarmed and grapple traits, and are cold iron or claw unarmed attacks that deals 1d4 slashing damage and have the agile, finesse, and unarmed traits respectively (so no nonlethal trait for both).
  • Dhampir versatile heritage can take Fangs feat that gives them fangs unarmed attacks that deals 1d6 piercing damage and have the grapple and unarmed traits (so no nonlethal trait).
  • Tiefling versatile heritage can take Form of the Fiend that gives your 4 alternative unarmed attacks without nonlethal trait (click on the link to see I'm tired to write).

    These are "just" some examples. There are many more ancestries, heritages and feats that gives unarmed strikes most of them without nonlethal trait.

    But after all that said. You don't need to really worry about nonlethal trait in 99% of cases it doesn't do a real difference. The main difference of lethal and nonlethal Strikes is that if that damage that take the opponent HP to 0 is nonlethal it won't enter in dying condition it will only become unconscious for about 10 minutes or more. So if you really want to kill it you can just do this after it falls, probably after the combat ends, giving it any kind of lethal damage. Usually nonlethal damage are better than lethal in many cases once it allows you to take some alive prisoners easier or to use in a situation where the use of lethal attacks are damnable. The only situation I can remember that nonlethal damage is a problem is vs objects and constructs.


  • 1 person marked this as a favorite.
    YuriP wrote:
    The only situation I can remember that nonlethal damage is a problem is vs objects and constructs.

    Yeah. To be more specific, it doesn't work at all, you won't do any damage.


    Nadlor wrote:
    Just wondering if there is a rune, or an ancestry feat, or an item... anything that could save me the feat investment.

    If there was, then everyone would use that instead of spending feats for it.


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    This remember me that there's itens too. Basically all Free-Hand trait weapons.


    Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

    Wouldn't the damage from, say, a Flaming property rune be lethal? Demolishing would potentially help with the issue of constructs.


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    Per RAW, all the damage of your attack is nonlethal. Also, nonlethal fire damage is perfectly possible (there's nonlethal mental damage with Daze for example).

    And having only part of the attack dealing nonlethal damage would be a big problem as it would be hard to determine which part, from the lethal and the nonlethal one, is the one that reduced the target to 0 hp.

    Radiant Oath

    I've done nonlethal fire bombs before with an oil from treasure vault.

    OP, I don't know what you need to accomplish. Would gauntlets help?


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    I was going to also suggest gauntlets, bladed gauntlets, knuckle duster, or spiked gauntlet all as options. Basically of the weapons with the free-hand trait.

    That will probably accomplish what the OP is looking for. Or at least it does lethal damage instead of non-lethal. It's a pitiful damage die, but it's there.


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    The cool thing with things like gauntlets is that you can wear a single one and get to choose whether you want lethal or nonlethal depending on which hand you use. Or, hell, just using other body parts like your legs or your head for unarmed (nonlethal) attacks works too.


    Hi, all!

    Many thanks for the answers. I'm trying to use the Sky and Heaven Stance from Jalmeri Heavenseeker Archetype, but I managed to get there without monk class/dedication. So I was not looking for other ways to get lethal unarmed attacks, but rather for a way to make unarmed non-lethal attacks lethal in a generic way (sorry for not specifying properly in my post).

    But I learnt from Yurip that dealing non-lethal damage barely matters from a mechanic point of view (apart from niche situations like fighting constructs), so I guess I was overthinking this and my build should be perfectly viable dealing non-lethal damage as it is. I really thought being unable to deal lethal damage without penalties would have more of an impact, so this has been very useful!


    Well be default there aren't really penalties for having a non-lethal attack aside from certain enemies being immune to non-lethal damage. The penalty that you might be thinking of is -2 to attack rolls for trying to deal lethal damage with a non-lethal weapon.

    But assuming you aren't fighting something that is immune to non-lethal then you don't need to worry about that either.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Claxon wrote:

    Well be default there aren't really penalties for having a non-lethal attack aside from certain enemies being immune to non-lethal damage. The penalty that you might be thinking of is -2 to attack rolls for trying to deal lethal damage with a non-lethal weapon.

    But assuming you aren't fighting something that is immune to non-lethal then you don't need to worry about that either.

    Yes, that was the penalty I wanted to avoid. But if it's barely going to come up (if at all), I'd rather assume that I'll be suboptimal in the rare fight against constructs than change my build around the need for a monk dedication feat!


    The main benefit for monk is the ability to get flurry of blows. I like to take monk at level 9 with multitalented and flurry at 10.

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