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Telekinetic Strikes
School evocation [force]; Level magus 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/ wizard 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)DESCRIPTION
The touched creature’s limbs are charged with telekinetic force.
For the duration of the spell, the target’s unarmed attacks or natural weapons deal an additional 1d4 points of force damage on each successful unarmed melee attack.
Toppling Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells with the force descriptor knock the affected creatures prone.
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, the target cannot attempt to trip you or the force effect in response.
A toppling spell only affects spells with the force descriptor.
Level Increase: +1 (a toppling spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.)
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Is Telekinetic Strikes a valid target for the metamagic Toppling Spell?
Yes, you may prepare a Toppling Telekinetic Strikes spell.
If it is, how does it interact with making multiple natural attacks?
You can make a Trip attempt every time you cause force damage with unarmed attacks or natural weapons.
My perfect world involves multiple trips in a turn (similar but different circumstances to the question asked about MM and the same metamagic)
Perfectly kosher, provided multiple attacks that round are successful, you could have multiple trip attempts. I'm sure you already know this but I'm going to say it for the benefit of those who might not, but you can't trip a target that is already prone. So, you would have multiple trip attempts per round, but you'd stop making trip attempts once you have your first successful trip attempt and knock the target prone.
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Telekinetic Strikes
School evocation [force]; Level magus 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/ wizard 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)DESCRIPTION
The touched creature’s limbs are charged with telekinetic force.
For the duration of the spell, the target’s unarmed attacks or natural weapons deal an additional 1d4 points of force damage on each successful unarmed melee attack.
Toppling Spell (Metamagic)
Your spells with the force descriptor knock the affected creatures prone.
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell , make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, the target cannot attempt to trip you or the force effect in response.
A toppling spell only affects spells with the force descriptor.
Level Increase: +1 (a toppling spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.)
The target of Telekinetic Strikes is the guy whose limbs are charged with telekinetic force. Not the target of that guy's unarmed or natural attacks.
Your force spell doesn't damage your target, doesn't require any saving throw, nor move your target, it gives your target limbs an enhancement.
I’m gonna side with Ryze Kuja on this… it is metamagic is intended to provide a rider effect for force damage spells, and TK Strikes is still a force damage spell. While yes, the spell initially targets a creature with a “harmless” effect, that doesn’t immediately disqualify it. The spell continues on to deal force damage to new targets as the initially affected creature attacks. Toppling Spell wouldn’t have an effect on the initial target, but it would still affect later targets. Sure RAW it might not work but clearly RAI it does and its rather pedantic to force hard RAW on this one given how limited its valid spellpool even is to begin with.
@ Diego and Azothath
Do you think that Frostbite is a valid spell for Rime Metamagic?
Frostbite
School transmutation [cold]; Level bloodrager 1, druid 1, magus 1, shaman 1, witch 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Targets creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
Your melee touch attack deals 1d6 points of nonlethal cold damage + 1 point per level, and the target is fatigued. The fatigued condition ends when the target recovers from the nonlethal damage. This spell cannot make a creature exhausted even if it is already fatigued. You can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level.
Rime Spell (Metamagic)
Creatures damaged by your spells with the cold descriptor become entangled.
Benefit: The frost of your cold spell clings to the target, impeding it for a short time. A rime spell causes creatures that takes cold damage from the spell to become entangled for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell.
This feat only affects spells with the cold descriptor.
Level Increase: +1 (a rime spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.)
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@ Diego and Azothath
Do you think that Frostbite is a valid spell for Rime Metamagic?
Rime spell works with Frostbite.
It is a completely different spell. It is instantaneous and damages the target. A touch B, B is damaged.Telekinetic Strikes: A touch B, B hands, or natural attacks, are enhanced. B strikes C with the enhanced hands and damages it.
Toppling spells requirement: A spell targets B and damages it is not fulfilled.
Sure RAW it might not work but clearly RAI it does and its rather pedantic to force hard RAW on this one given how limited its valid spellpool even is to begin with.
If we speak of RAI, as interpreted by the single GM, any metamagic or any feat can do whatever the GM wants. A rule forum question, if RAW exists, should be first of all replied to with RAW.
Then you can argue what you think metamagic was intended to do.
@ Diego and Azothath
Do you think that Frostbite is a valid spell for Rime Metamagic?
Rime spell works with Frostbite.
It is a completely different spell. It is instantaneous and damages the target. A touch B, B is damaged.Telekinetic Strikes: A touch B, B hands, or natural attacks, are enhanced. B strikes C with the enhanced hands and damages it.
Toppling spells requirement: A spell targets B and damages it is not fulfilled.
Does Toppling Spell say that only instantaneous Force spells are affected?
Or does it say any spell with the Force Descriptor?
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@ Diego and Azothath
Do you think that Frostbite is a valid spell for Rime Metamagic?
Rime spell works with Frostbite.
It is a completely different spell. It is instantaneous and damages the target. A touch B, B is damaged.Telekinetic Strikes: A touch B, B hands, or natural attacks, are enhanced. B strikes C with the enhanced hands and damages it.
Toppling spells requirement: A spell targets B and damages it is not fulfilled.
Does Toppling Spell say that only instantaneous Force spells are affected?
Or does it say any spell with the Force Descriptor?
No, I am saying that it is an instantaneous spell that directly damages its target.
Toppling metamagic requires you to damage the target of the Toppling spell, or have it fail a save against the spell, or move it with the force spell.An unarmed or natural attack enhanced by Telekinetic Strikes doesn't do any of those things, as the target of the attack isn't the target of the spell.
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Would you say it works on Blade Barrier RAW? It also doesn't target an enemy and has multiple hit opportunities. A/B/C with B being the area you cast it on.
RAW, no. It hasn't a target.
Maybe it is an intended limitation, maybe it is an oversight, but, as written, Toppling Spell works only with spells with a target line and affects only the targets.
Technically a caster can apply Toppling Metamagic to Blade Barrier:K[force]6 and then the spell will fail when cast as it cannot complete/fulfill its conditions.
I don't think the spell will fail. Simply the metamagic will do nothing, as it has nothing to affect.
Hargleblargh, you're thinking procedurally to the point of satisfaction. Meaning you're doing a "this function waits until it can be satisfied, then activates."
Pathfinder metamagic doesn't work that way. The metamagic feat modifies the cast spell. Meaning that "the target" is the target of the metamagic spell. Which is the creature with all the natural attacks. That's who you - the caster of the metamagic spell - are targeting when you cast it. That's the definition of "the target". That's the person who's going to get tripped.
Metamagic won't just sit, waiting until an interpretation of its rules makes it applicable. It either is applicable when cast, or not.
Imagine a metamagic that changes the target line of a spell to apply to undead. Imagine a spell that only lets you cast it on living creatures, but it lasts for hours. You can't cast a metamagic version of that spell on a living ally and expect the spell to wait for them to turn undead and suddenly trigger. The initial casting isn't valid so the metamagic spell doesn't do what you want it to do.
That's kind of what's happening here. The effect of the metamagic applies to the target of the spell, which is not the target of the target of the spell. Read that again. The target of the target of the spell.
Makes sense now?
I mean, what you describe is awesome... but not RAW legal.
^----- Here's some people saying that Toppling Spell works with Spiritual Weapon and Spiritual Ally, and Toppling makes Floating Disk cause a Trip with the Force Check CMB check to bull rush.
There are Metamagic Feats that specifically only work with spells that are Instantaneous, and it calls that out as a specific rule in the Metamagic Feat. Toppling Spell doesn't make this designation for instantaneous spells. It just says any spell with the [force] descriptor.
In the case of Telekinetic Strikes, the spell causes force damage, not bludgeoning damage. So the spell is definitely causing damage, and therefore satisfies this clause: "If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell".
what I think will work (or not as some are maybe) Zero to Third level wizard spells. The acceptable RAW list is quite short.
Magic Missile:K1 {one magic missile}
Shock Shield:K1 {technically NO but GM may allow you to select adjacent opponent when you dismiss spell, very iffy}Admonishing Ray:K2
Force Sword:K2 & Instant Weapon:K2 {technically NO but GM may throw you a bone on first hit}
Force Wave:K2
Pilfering Hand:K2 Abrupt Maneuver CMB disarm/steal {technically NO as target doesn't move or trip but Dirty Trick might offer options}.Battering Blast:K3 {one ball of force}
Chain of Perdition:K3 {technically NO but GM may allow first successful hit a chance to topple}
Force Punch:K3
Twilight Knife:K3 {technically NO but GM may allow first successful hit a chance to topple}
Unflappable Mien:K3 {technically NO but a real maybe for your GM}=== comment ===
ask your home GM to add creation spells like Grease, Stumble Gap, Create Pit to the acceptable spells for a first attempt on a target by the spell. That would also bring in some of the "technically NO" [force] spells. It's no guarantee but worth asking & considering.
Where are you coming to this “only the one hit” conclusion from? Are you mistakenly applying the precision damage rules by chance? Because nowhere in the rules for metamagic or toppling spell does it limit the metamagic effects to only one hit for multihit spells. The handful of metamagics that do have such a limitation either specifically call it out or had their limitation expressly added via an FAQ. It is NOT a general rule, it is a specific rule applied to specific effects.
Seems to me that the underlying question is: when a metamagic feat references a "target" is that required to be the target of the spell being modified? The answer to this decides this discussion. To my knowledge there is not an explicit answer in The Book, but many/most folk around here have an answer they support based on their understanding of the patterns and principles in The Rules.
This isn't a very convincing example. You didn't provide a relevant spell to the current issue, you provided one with no context between it and Toppling Strikes other than your statement about metamagic. Your metamagic changes creatures affected, mine has a triggered effect when your spell does one of the listed requirements. I know the metamagic happens at casting. What you seem to think is that it ends after casting and not when the spell is over.
You say "that's how metamagic works" I'm asking where in RAW books it describes metamagic inherently requiring a target from the affected spell. I can't find...
Okay. Let's try this again a different way.
I assume you subscribe to the understanding that with Pathfinder the rules tell you what you can do (and how to do it). You are assumed to not be able to do a thing unless a rule says you can. Because if you don't accept that's the PF model, nothing we can say can explain this.
If you do, let's look at the text.
Toppling Spell
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target...
Telekinetic Strikes
Target: one creature
The touched creature’s limbs are charged with telekinetic force.
For the duration of the spell, the target’s unarmed attacks or natural weapons deal an additional 1d4 points of force damage on each successful unarmed melee attack.
Who is the target of a toppling telekinetic strikes spell? Well, the Toppling Spell feat doesn't contain text that says anything about modifying the target line of the spell it applies to.
Contrast against this:
Threnodic Spell
Benefit: This feat only works on mind-affecting spells. A threnodic spell affects undead creatures (even mindless undead) as if they weren’t immune to mind-affecting effects, but has no effect on living creatures.
Pretty clear that modifies a spell so its target line makes it valid on mindless undead. You can do things like a threnodic charm person. Because while charm person targets "one humanoid creature", the metamagic feat overrides that.
Now you see how target-line alteration is worded. There's zero hint of that in Toppling Spell. It's telling you the target is who gets tripped. And telekinetic strikes tells you who the target is, and it's one creature. The creature you're targeting.
I think it's a lot of mental gymnastics to try to imagine these words mean something differently. And this isn't a case where "show me a dev saying this is how it works" is meaningful. Devs answered (some) questions about ambiguous things. This isn't. While a} some GMs may allow exceptions and b} some people may misread this at first, I don't think it's remotely ambiguous. Again, I'm reducing this down to "the rules say what they do" as the authority. Don't need a dev quote saying that.
It's all about the target
Target or Targets
You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
The metamagic doesnt specify initial spell target. It simply states target. In the case of telekinetic strikes there are actually multiple targets. There is the initial spell target (harmless), and then there is the target of the spell effect (creature attacked). The way I read it, a toppling spell would apply to ALL targets of the spell and spell effect. As there is no damage, save, or forced movement applied to the initial spell target they are not affected by the trip, but all targets of the spell effect thereafter do infact take damage from the spell, and as such would be subject to the trip.
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The metamagic doesnt specify initial spell target. It simply states target. In the case of telekinetic strikes there are actually multiple targets. There is the initial spell target (harmless), and then there is the target of the spell effect (creature attacked). The way I read it, a toppling spell would apply to ALL targets of the spell and spell effect. As there is no damage, save, or forced movement applied to the initial spell target they are not affected by the trip, but all targets of the spell effect thereafter do infact take damage from the spell, and as such would be subject to the trip.It's all about the target
Target or Targets
You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
No. That's like saying someone under the effects of bulls str is targeting opponents with it by making attack rolls. Or someone under the effects of a spell like stoke the inner fire (grants weapons the flaming ability) is targeting the enemy with it everytime they attack, despite the range of personal.
The spell doesn't target the enemy. The spell may cause an effect that does damage to the enemy, but the spell it's self doesn't target the enemy.That's not how the system works
I appreciate the work put into this post, wow.
You using "Who is the target of a toppling etc..." is confusing, as that doesn't address the question and it's assuming your description of metamagic is correct. If it's ambiguous or not to you is all and well, but please bear in mind even your potentially larger understanding of the game is just as arbitrary as mine.
You're not really putting anything forward other than unrelated metamagic. Every line or so I read here, it's like the cycle begins anew.
Threnodic and charm person don't work as examples either, for the record. Your post is well worded, but you revert right back to "this isn't ambiguous" or more familiarly, "that's not how this works". You neglect to interact with any of my, or any other opposing points and try to create your own that don't seem to work. Maybe if nothing you say can explain it, it's wrong?
Thanks for putting in the effort you have, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't use any more. I asked for consensus and appreciate you giving some.
It's a shame you're so polite. You keep making me want to help. <Grin>
Fine, let's rewind a bit and look for the bit where I neglect to interact with the opposing points.
You: "The feat itself doesn't interact with a target until it makes a trip attempt."
Okay, let's unpack that a bit and see what we can find.
Metamagic Feats
As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. Metamagic feats do not affect spell-like abilities.
Also...
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot.
See, metamagic feats modify a spell. The spell then acts normally in all ways. I mean... with the modifications the feat applies.
What I'm saying is that "the feat itself doesn't interact with a target until" is IMHO leading the witness, to admit to something they're not guilty of. The feat doesn't interact with a target ever. It interacts with the spell. Because that's what metamagic feats say they do. Quoted above.
What I think needs to be looked at to evaluate this is "how does Toppling Spell modify telekinetic strikes?"
The answer is that the target might get tripped.
This is where the question "who is 'the target'" comes up, again. But again, you've got to come back to the definition of what metamagic does... as quoted above. It modifies the spell. Thus the target of a metamagic-modified spell is the target of a metamagic-modified spell. I know that's a tautology, and that's precisely why I say this is IMHO not ambiguous.
Metamagic feats modify spells. Spells target who they target. This metamagic feat doesn't say anything suggesting that it modifies the spell so that the target of the spell gets to perform trip attempts. It says that they get a trip attack against them.
There is only one target. The target of the metamagic spell.
It references the appropriate creature being potentially affected by your spell, and how to trigger the trip, but it doesn't mention selecting or making a target until then. It only references "the target", which could be pointing to who is potentially being affected by the list of triggering effects and not "target of the spell" - which it doesn't say.
It doesn't say that because the documentation on what metamagic feats do explains. Metamagic feats modify spells. The target remains the target because there is no text saying otherwise... per the text about what metamagic feats do.
If there are other differing opinion points in this thread I should/could reply to, please point them out. I do see Ryze Kuja's post, but it's basically "this spell qualifies for this metamagic feat" (which I agree it does) and "the target's natural attacks pass on the joy", which has zero supporting reasoning. I also see Chell's post, which literally references the intention of the feat and literally admits that rules-as-written it doesn't work.
If your question is actually "would it be reasonable to allow this?" Shrug. Sure, whatever. I'd allow it at my table, because of the rule of cool. If your question is "do the rules allow this?" Nope.
I've quoted metamagic. I've quoted the feat. I've quoted the spell. Put the three together and it doesn't work.
I know I'm putting a lot of time into saying "no" to you, and I absolutely don't mean to be a Debbie Downer. But this is a rules question in the rules forum and that triggers... precision, even if the rules aren't in our favor.
Ask your DM for permission. You're not going to get a smoking gun saying this is allowed, to argue them in your favor. You need to invoke the cool factor. And if you're the DM trying to make a decision about a player... I can only offer the suggestion... offer to allow it until it proves to be a balance problem at your table.
Good luck.
WAIT... let's try one more thing; let's write down what this really looks like...
Toppling Telekinetic Strikes
School evocation [force]; Level arcanist 3, magus 3, psychic 3, sorcerer 3, wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)
The touched creature’s limbs are charged with telekinetic force. For the duration of the spell, the target’s unarmed attacks or natural weapons deal an additional 1d4 points of force damage on each successful unarmed melee attack.
The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target, using your caster level plus your casting ability score bonus (Wisdom for clerics, Intelligence for wizards, and so on). This does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the check fails, the target cannot attempt to trip you or the force effect in response.
Literally apply the feat to the spell. Right after it does something good to the target, it does something bad to the target. That's what you get when you mix beneficial buff spells with damaging/debuffing metamagic. It's like putting and using a cure light wounds in a +1 flaming spell-storing greatsword. Sure, sure, you're going to heal 1d8+CL on a hit. But you're inflicting 2d6+1+1d6+(Str x 1.5) in damage at the same time. It's a choice. It's valid. But it's a poor one. In the case of this spell, it's a poor one because you're going to trip the person you're trying to help.
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Please, be honest with yourself, you are refusing to listen.
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target,
As explained several times, the target of a spell is what is written under the Target row of the spell description.
To target something different you need permission to change that row in the feat description.Aiming a Spell
You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is to originate, depending on a spell’s type. The next entry in a spell description defines the spell’s target (or targets), its effect, or its area, as appropriate.Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
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You don't cast a Touch spell on others, you cast it on yourself, and then go touch something later.
For example, if I cast Rime Frostbite and attempt to touch a target and roll a nat 1 and miss, what happens? Does the spell get expended or does the spell stay active on the wizard until he touches a target? Answer: The Touch Spell stays active on the Wizard until he successfully touches something. Right? So, you cast a Touch spell on yourself, not on another target. And then you go touch another target to discharge the spell.
You could cast a touch spell on yourself at 8:00am and not touch anything until Noon, and the touch spell would still be active until you touched something at Noon. A touch spell stays active on you INDEFINITELY until you touch something. So, you cast Touch spells on YOURSELF, and then go touch something later.
If I'm a level 20 wizard and I cast a Rime Frostbite, the next 20 targets that I touch get Entangled from the Rime Metamagic whenever I cause Cold damage. It's a touch spell that stays active on the wizard for a total of 20 different touch attacks.
In the exact same way, I'm casting a Toppling Telekinetic Strikes spell on myself, and it would cause the next 20 minutes-worth of unarmed strikes to cause a Trip whenever I cause force damage.
If Toppling Metamagic was meant to only affect instantaneous spells, then it would say so.
Apocalyptic Spell (Metamagic)Your spell becomes infused with the devastating horror personified by the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, temporarily transforming reality into a treacherous ruin.
Benefit(s): You can alter a spell with an area of effect and a duration of instantaneous to become an apocalyptic spell.
When you cast the spell, the area affected by the spell’s instantaneous effect becomes ruined and devastated in appearance. All surfaces in the area are treated as difficult terrain, and Climb, Fly, and Swim checks attempted in the area take a penalty equal to the spell’s original spell level.
The difficult terrain and skill penalties last for a number of rounds equal to the spell’s original spell level. An apocalyptic spell gains the evil descriptor.
An apocalyptic spell uses a spell slot 1 level higher than the spell’s normal spell level. Spells with the good descriptor can’t be apocalyptic spells.
Centered Spell (Metamagic)
You can make a spell explode around you, leaving a safe zone for yourself at the center of the blast.
Prerequisite(s): Spellcraft 3 ranks.
Benefit(s): You can center the area of a spell with an area effect and duration of instantaneous on you, and exclude yourself from the effects of the spell. Your familiar (if any) is also excluded from the effect, provided that it is in your square and at least one size category smaller than you.
A centered spell does not use up a higher-level spell slot than the spell’s actual level.
Lingering Spell (Metamagic)
Your spell clings to existence, slowly fading from the world.
Benefit: You may cause an instantaneous spell that affects an area to persist until the beginning of your next turn. Those already in the area suffer no additional harm, but other creatures or objects entering the area are subject to its effects. A lingering spell with a visual manifestation obscures vision, providing concealment (20% miss chance) beyond 5 feet and total concealment (50% miss chance) beyond 20 feet.
Level Increase: +1 (a lingering spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spell’s actual level.)
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You don't cast a Touch spell on others, you cast it on yourself, and then go touch something later.
For example, if I cast Rime Frostbite and attempt to touch a target and roll a nat 1 and miss, what happens? Does the spell get expended or does the spell stay active on the wizard until he touches a target? Answer: The Touch Spell stays active on the Wizard until he successfully touches something. Right? So, you cast a Touch spell on yourself, not on another target. And then you go touch another target to discharge the spell.
You could cast a touch spell on yourself at 8:00am and not touch anything until Noon, and the touch spell would still be active until you touched something at Noon. A touch spell stays active on you INDEFINITELY until you touch something. So, you cast Touch spells on YOURSELF, and then go touch something later.
If I'm a level 20 wizard and I cast a Rime Frostbite, the next 20 targets that I touch get Entangled from the Rime Metamagic whenever I cause Cold damage. It's a touch spell that stays active on the wizard for a total of 20 different touch attacks.
In the exact same way, I'm casting a Toppling Telekinetic Strikes spell on myself, and it would cause the next 20 minutes-worth of unarmed strikes to cause a Trip whenever I cause force damage.
thats disingenuous. thats not how the distinction of target works, and you know it.
the target is the person the spell takes effect on. if the spell targets you and gives you a buff, thats one thing
if the spell targets someone else and does damage, thats another thing
you dont target the person you're striking with the spell, your targeting them with an unarmed attack
same way weapon focus (touch attack) wouldnt apply to that unarmed attack, because its not an attack with a touch attack, toppling spell wont works because the spell isnt targeting the opponent. TOppling spell only TARGERTED you (in this instance), the bonus damage from the spell isnt targeting, its (basically) a rider effect
You've outlined here that the target is the person it takes effect on, but the spell can potentially affect multiple targets. Tele strikes targets you and affects creatures successfully attacked by you. Being affected is enough to be referred to as "Target" from the section I mentioned in my last post. Check out the outline of an attack spell I mentioned too.
That's an interesting take.
So... when the creature who has telekinetic strikes cast on them hits someone with their natural attack, do you remember to roll against Spell Resistance?
I mean... the spell says its harmless, but it very clearly isn't. It does damage. Also, do you remember to have the creature getting hit by those natural attacks roll their Will save? Because again, not harmless.
If you want to play the game that the spell is targeting someone other than who it is cast upon, then you need to let them use their defenses.
The save/SR line is written as it is because the spell doesn't harm the target of the spell. Which is one creature.
I maintain that just like applying a metamagic feat to change the Range from touch to Close, nothing else in the spell changes. With Toppling Spell, the target - as defined by spells - doesn't change, because nothing in the text of the feat says it does.
Just make sure if you're insisting on changing the target line, and doing damage, it's time to change the Save/SR line too.