Hargleblargh's page

You bloody legends. Thanks guys. We've worked out the alignment thing.

Hey guys, how would a juju zombie druid interact with wild shape? Beast Shape targets "yourself" and not "living creature" although polymorph does. The subschool page for polymorph doesn't mention living targets or even the spell "polymorph". Would the druid keep their original template(s) things (+4 Str, etc) aside from special attacks and abilities ((ex), (su)) relying on form? The polymorph rules prevent changing into a creature with a template, but is that a valid restriction if you already had the template to begin with? If you're curious, they got the Juju Zombie template through Onyx Spear.

Hargleblargh wrote:

You've outlined here that the target is the person it takes effect on, but the spell can potentially affect multiple targets. Tele strikes targets you and affects creatures successfully attacked by you. Being affected is enough to be referred to as "Target" from the section I mentioned in my last post. Check out the outline of an attack spell I mentioned too.

That's an interesting take.

So... when the creature who has telekinetic strikes cast on them hits someone with their natural attack, do you remember to roll against Spell Resistance?

I mean... the spell says its harmless, but it very clearly isn't. It does damage. Also, do you remember to have the creature getting hit by those natural attacks roll their Will save? Because again, not harmless.

If you want to play the game that the spell is targeting someone other than who it is cast upon, then you need to let them use their defenses.

The save/SR line is written as it is because the spell doesn't harm the target of the spell. Which is one creature.

I maintain that just like applying a metamagic feat to change the Range from touch to Close, nothing else in the spell changes. With Toppling Spell, the target - as defined by spells - doesn't change, because nothing in the text of the feat says it does.

Just make sure if you're insisting on changing the target line, and doing damage, it's time to change the Save/SR line too.

They would absolutely get spell resist and I'd maintain you'd have to roll for it if you want the force damage and feat effect. The saving throw is for the initial target (you) and a will save to avoid force damage doesn't make sense.

Ryze Kuja wrote:

You don't cast a Touch spell on others, you cast it on yourself, and then go touch something later.

For example, if I cast Rime Frostbite and attempt to touch a target and roll a nat 1 and miss, what happens? Does the spell get expended or does the spell stay active on the wizard until he touches a target? Answer: The Touch Spell stays active on the Wizard until he successfully touches something. Right? So, you cast a Touch spell on yourself, not on another target. And then you go touch another target to discharge the spell.

You could cast a touch spell on yourself at 8:00am and not touch anything until Noon, and the touch spell would still be active until you touched something at Noon. A touch spell stays active on you INDEFINITELY until you touch something. So, you cast Touch spells on YOURSELF, and then go touch something later.

If I'm a level 20 wizard and I cast a Rime Frostbite, the next 20 targets that I touch get Entangled from the Rime Metamagic whenever I cause Cold damage. It's a touch spell that stays active on the wizard for a total of 20 different touch attacks.

In the exact same way, I'm casting a Toppling Telekinetic Strikes spell on myself, and it would cause the next 20 minutes-worth of unarmed strikes to cause a Trip whenever I cause force damage.

thats disingenuous. thats not how the distinction of target works, and you know it.

the target is the person the spell takes effect on. if the spell targets you and gives you a buff, thats one thing

if the spell targets someone else and does damage, thats another thing

you dont target the person you're striking with the spell, your targeting them with an unarmed attack

same way weapon focus (touch attack) wouldnt apply to that unarmed attack, because its not an attack with a touch attack, toppling spell wont works because the spell isnt targeting the opponent. TOppling spell only TARGERTED you (in this instance), the bonus damage from the spell isnt...

You've outlined here that the target is the person it takes effect on, but the spell can potentially affect multiple targets. Tele strikes targets you and affects creatures successfully attacked by you. Being affected is enough to be referred to as "Target" from the section I mentioned in my last post. Check out the outline of an attack spell I mentioned too.

Please, be honest with yourself, you are refusing to listen.

Quote:

Aiming a Spell

You must make choices about whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is
Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

They use "whom a spell is to affect or where an effect is" here. The VERY next line uses shorter terminology "targets or areas" in the same place. The author clearly makes an understanding of "whom a spell is to affect" = "targets" and "where an effect is" = "area". Even if the spell targets yourself, it still counts as an attack spell, as the effect mentions both making attacks and dealing damage. The spell walks you through who it affects RAW in the order of the spell description. Check this out:

Special Spell Effects
Many special spell effects are handled according to the school of the spells in question. Certain other special spell features are found across spell schools.

Attacks
Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone ---(they don't mention attacks, damage, or saving throws).

It targets you and RAW its effect is changed. It even says harmless, but that is only in reference to the initial effect of the spell. The spell says your unarmed deal an additional d4 on a successful unarmed attack.
That's the spell effect. Your successful unarmed attacks dealing an additional d4 is the spell in effect. Every time you meet that requirement, your spell takes effect and your unarmed attack deals 1d4 force. The d4 and requirement of an unarmed or natural attack in the spell description classify it into an attack, which is often paired with "target" or more accurately "affected creature(s)" terminology.
Now the damage dice described and introduced in the spell is always considered weapon damage AND this spell's damage effect. I never argued the feat was changing the target line mind you. I don't think it applies at all, as the spell takes care of that by describing it RAW, as an attack. Metamagic changes how you cast the spell, but you're getting that confused with an instantaneous effect, which was described wonderfully in another post.

Hargleblargh wrote:

I appreciate the work put into this post, wow.

You using "Who is the target of a toppling etc..." is confusing, as that doesn't address the question and it's assuming your description of metamagic is correct. If it's ambiguous or not to you is all and well, but please bear in mind even your potentially larger understanding of the game is just as arbitrary as mine.
You're not really putting anything forward other than unrelated metamagic. Every line or so I read here, it's like the cycle begins anew.
Threnodic and charm person don't work as examples either, for the record. Your post is well worded, but you revert right back to "this isn't ambiguous" or more familiarly, "that's not how this works". You neglect to interact with any of my, or any other opposing points and try to create your own that don't seem to work. Maybe if nothing you say can explain it, it's wrong?
Thanks for putting in the effort you have, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't use any more. I asked for consensus and appreciate you giving some.

It's a shame you're so polite. You keep making me want to help. <Grin>

Fine, let's rewind a bit and look for the bit where I neglect to interact with the opposing points.

You: "The feat itself doesn't interact with a target until it makes a trip attempt."

Okay, let's unpack that a bit and see what we can find.

Metamagic Feats
As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. Metamagic feats do not affect spell-like abilities.

Also...

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and...

The "metamagic affects the spell" isn't correlative to your point. I haven't been making points contingent on whether or not metamagic makes a target, it was an example of the use of the feat. I know metamagic affects the spell. That isn't a revelation to our problem. And great use of the term "leading the witness"! It's interesting you chose that phrase after I've been ever so polite about deterring you from doing the same, intentional or no.

Hargleblargh wrote:

This isn't a very convincing example. You didn't provide a relevant spell to the current issue, you provided one with no context between it and Toppling Strikes other than your statement about metamagic. Your metamagic changes creatures affected, mine has a triggered effect when your spell does one of the listed requirements. I know the metamagic happens at casting. What you seem to think is that it ends after casting and not when the spell is over.

You say "that's how metamagic works" I'm asking where in RAW books it describes metamagic inherently requiring a target from the affected spell. I can't find...

Okay. Let's try this again a different way.

I assume you subscribe to the understanding that with Pathfinder the rules tell you what you can do (and how to do it). You are assumed to not be able to do a thing unless a rule says you can. Because if you don't accept that's the PF model, nothing we can say can explain this.

If you do, let's look at the text.

Toppling Spell
Benefit: The impact of your force spell is strong enough to knock the target prone. If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or is moved by your force spell, make a trip check against the target...

Telekinetic Strikes
Target: one creature
The touched creature’s limbs are charged with telekinetic force.
For the duration of the spell, the target’s unarmed attacks or natural weapons deal an additional 1d4 points of force damage on each successful unarmed melee attack.

Who is the target of a toppling telekinetic strikes spell? Well, the Toppling Spell feat doesn't contain text that says anything about modifying the target line of the spell it applies to.

Contrast against this:

Threnodic Spell
Benefit: This feat only works on mind-affecting spells. A threnodic spell affects undead creatures (even mindless undead) as if they weren’t immune to mind-affecting effects, but has no effect on living creatures.

Pretty clear that modifies a spell...

I appreciate the work put into this post, wow.

You using "Who is the target of a toppling etc..." is confusing, as that doesn't address the question and it's assuming your description of metamagic is correct. If it's ambiguous or not to you is all and well, but please bear in mind even your potentially larger understanding of the game is just as arbitrary as mine.
You're not really putting anything forward other than unrelated metamagic. Every line or so I read here, it's like the cycle begins anew.
Threnodic and charm person don't work as examples either, for the record. Your post is well worded, but you revert right back to "this isn't ambiguous" or more familiarly, "that's not how this works". You neglect to interact with any of my, or any other opposing points and try to create your own that don't seem to work. Maybe if nothing you say can explain it, it's wrong?
Thanks for putting in the effort you have, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't use any more. I asked for consensus and appreciate you giving some.

Hargleblargh, you're thinking procedurally to the point of satisfaction. Meaning you're doing a "this function waits until it can be satisfied, then activates."

Pathfinder metamagic doesn't work that way. The metamagic feat modifies the cast spell. Meaning that "the target" is the target of the metamagic spell. Which is the creature with all the natural attacks. That's who you - the caster of the metamagic spell - are targeting when you cast it. That's the definition of "the target". That's the person who's going to get tripped.

Metamagic won't just sit, waiting until an interpretation of its rules makes it applicable. It either is applicable when cast, or not.

Imagine a metamagic that changes the target line of a spell to apply to undead. Imagine a spell that only lets you cast it on living creatures, but it lasts for hours. You can't cast a metamagic version of that spell on a living ally and expect the spell to wait for them to turn undead and suddenly trigger. The initial casting isn't valid so the metamagic spell doesn't do what you want it to do.

That's kind of what's happening here. The effect of the metamagic applies to the target of the spell, which is not the target of the target of the spell. Read that again. The target of the target of the spell.

Makes sense now?

I mean, what you describe is awesome... but not RAW legal.

This isn't a very convincing example. You didn't provide a relevant spell to the current issue, you provided one with no context between it and Toppling Strikes other than your statement about metamagic. Your metamagic changes creatures affected, mine has a triggered effect when your spell does one of the listed requirements. I know the metamagic happens at casting. What you seem to think is that it ends after casting and not when the spell is over.

Hargleblargh wrote:

Would you say it{Toppling Spell metamagic} works on Blade Barrier RAW? It also doesn't target an enemy and has multiple hit opportunities. A/B/C with B being the area you cast it on.

Technically a caster can apply Toppling Metamagic to Blade Barrier:K[force]6 and then the spell will fail when cast as it cannot complete/fulfill its conditions.

Most GMs don't want to watch a player waste his spells that way and your Spellcraft skill will help you (via your GM) avoid those kind of common mistakes.

The persistent problem is that Toppling requires the target of the spell to be affected "If the target takes damage, fails its saving throw, or ...".
Blade Barrier creates an Area of Effect which essentially IS the TARGET of the SPELL. You could also argue that the Blade Barrier spell has no "Target: ..." entry. Either works and leads to a NO.
I understand it is disappointing but RAW is what it is.

=== Advice ===
Using metamagics can be tricky(as they always take the worst option), the spells are a bit quirky, and when it comes to Magic some GMs can get prickly. Most GMs want to follow RAW or close to their home game version as they feel it is Fair and keeps the game from going to Crazy Town.
If you really want to understand how a wizard works you should play/chat with an experienced player as it generally takes hours and hours to figure out most of the ins & outs of the spell system as a whole. I'd say it takes about an hour per wizard level via tutoring for the basics (so 1hr@First Level, 2hrs@Second, 3hrs@Third, ...). There's also learning what's effective and efficient at a given level.
My suggestion is to go to the Advice forum with your character design and spell list and ask for advice on Feats and spell usage... you'll get a ton of advice.

Let me first say it was my first post, not my first foray into being a wizard, or even using metamagic for that matter. I came here to learn, and I can see you two are experienced users of the forum, so thanks for your time! I disagree though. Give this a read and see if you don't see it through my eyes afterward.

Ryze Kuja wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Ryze Kuja wrote:

@ Diego and Azothath

Do you think that Frostbite is a valid spell for Rime Metamagic?

Rime spell works with Frostbite.

It is a completely different spell. It is instantaneous and damages the target. A touch B, B is damaged.

Telekinetic Strikes: A touch B, B hands, or natural attacks, are enhanced. B strikes C with the enhanced hands and damages it.
Toppling spells requirement: A spell targets B and damages it is not fulfilled.

Does Toppling Spell say that only instantaneous Force spells are affected?

Or does it say any spell with the Force Descriptor?

No, I am saying that it is an instantaneous spell that directly damages its target.

Toppling metamagic requires you to damage the target of the Toppling spell, or have it fail a save against the spell, or move it with the force spell.
An unarmed or natural attack enhanced by Telekinetic Strikes doesn't do any of those things, as the target of the attack isn't the target of the spell.

Would you say it works on Blade Barrier RAW? It also doesn't target an enemy and has multiple hit opportunities. A/B/C with B being the area you cast it on.

Terrific news, really. Thank you!

Hello first post here. I'd like some concensus on a potential interaction. Is Telekinetic Strikes a valid target for the metamagic Toppling Spell? If it is, how does it interact with making multiple natural attacks? My perfect world involves multiple trips in a turn (similar but different circumstances to the question asked about MM and the same metamagic)