Samurai Class

[The-Magic-Sword]

One of the nice things about PF2e is that Archetypes can actually have separate types of feats within them that don't have to simultaneously exist on a every build, so you can actually also just have a samurai archetype where some of the feats orient towards a historical idea of a samurai, and others point towards a more fantastical image of a samurai. Though I also have no problems focusing more on the touchstones of a Samurai in media, simply because cavalier and whatnot do cover that space well.

I think that the Viking Archetype is a good precedent to follow. in terms of how the archetype should operate as opposed to 'just give a fighter a Katana and call it a day' kind of thinking, it does a lot to lubricate the things you expect a viking to be in terms of weapon and such.

Incidentally, for Kenshin specifically (the anime character) I would be an elf Monk with an Elven Curve Blade (via ancestral weaponry) and probably one inch punch to emulate the power of a draw slash. That gets you dex with a two handed curving weapon, zero armor but good AC reflective of his skill in avoiding attacks, distinct techniques to flavor accordingly between Flurry of Blows and One Inch Punch's Multi Action distinction, and the opportunity to take feats like wall run.

[RagnellHD]

I'm planning to play a Flashy "anime/video game" esque Samurai in an upcoming campaign for my group. Though instead of something like Fighter, Monk or Swashbuckler like others are suggesting. I built mine as a Laughing Shadows Magus. I honestly see a lot their kit works well for a flashy swordsman.

For instance Spellstrike can be considered an over the top finishing move putting all your energy into one attack. The Laughing Shadow Focus Spell Dimensional Assault fits well for the Blindingly fast Iaijitsu cuts. Arcane Cascade let's you infuse your blade with an element so even your regular strikes are flashy. Not to mention having access to the arcane spell list for a lot of extra stuff you can do with your turn.

This build obviously fits a specific definition of samurai tropes like DMC Virgil, or animes like Demon Slayer and Bleach. I.e the fictional ones with a lot of creative liberties for rule of cool rather than one meant for historical accuracy.

There's lots of ways to play specific types of characters with the classes we currently have.

[Lawrencelot]

I think I've seen literally every class mentioned in this thread now for Samurai, besides full casters and alchemist. So maybe the word Samurai is actually as versatile as something like the words Mage or Hero, and we won't come to any conclusion because basically everything is possible.

I did like the Swashbuckler solution though, for keeping a weapon sheathed to gain panache. You could disallow tumbling through to gain panache with this option, and instead give it any of the thousand Samurai mechanics discussed in this thread to compensate.

[Alchemic_Genius]

I think basically, we can all agree that:

-Samurai, especially in a storytelling sense, can both mean "historical knight" and "gonzo anime sword fighter"

-Even within both catagories, theres a lot of ways to represent these, in terms how they fight

-Both character types are supported by the lore and feel of the setting

-historical knight is already well supported, but draw/sheathe guy is not

Now, like I said before, my objection to naming a class or archetype "samurai" is because terms with mechanics attached become loaded in definition, so once one, mechanically, becomes a Samurai, the other cannot be a Samurai; which is why I propose the name kensei, a term thats loaded with mysticism.

Most people itching for a class want there to be mechanics for sheathing and unsheathing. While I've seen swashbulker's panache system mentioned, I actually feel like a slightly different approach is better; having cool moves you can do with your sword sheathed, and cool moves you can do with it drawn; but cause you to sheathe your sword. A (really) rough set of example feats:

Kensei Dedication
You gain quick draw with one group of weapons. If you have Attack of Opportunity, Retributive Strike, or a similar reaction that allows you to strike, you may draw a weapon from the chosen group as a free action before making that reaction's strike.

Drawing your sword stuff
-Power draw: two action power attack type feat that needs your weapon to be sheathed and unsheathed it as part of the attack
-Flashing Steel: If you've unsheathed your weapon, your opponents are flat-footed against the first strike you make until the end of your turn
-Attack of Opportunity
-Sudden Clash: AoO modifier that if your weapon is sheathed, if you hit, you disrupt movement

Sheathing your sword stuff
-Crimson path: Flourish; stride and make a strike. If you hit, the target takes persistent bleed damage; sheathe your sword (for all the flashing movement, sheathing sword, and the enemy starts gushing blood tropes)
-Certain Strike: Press; regular strike, but with a failure effect of dealing minimum damage, sheath your sword
-Impossible Slash: Flourish; make an attack against every foe within 30 feet; sheath your sword
Fatal Strike: Focus Spell; stride 30 feat towards a target. Deal an automatic 50 damage to them; it it lowers them to 0 hp, they are automatically killed. Targetbis immune for an hour

Magic Stuff (all of these are focus spells that are your choice of divine or occult. You can use your class dc if it's better)
-Air Cutter: Make a Strike; increasing your reach to 30 feet. Improved range with heightening
-Crescent Cut: AoE cone blast basic ref that deal the damage type of your weapon. If they crit fail, the weapon's crit spec is applied
-Flash Step: One action short range teleport; casting it doesn't AoO

[Jedi Maester]

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

Now, like I said before, my objection to naming a class or archetype "samurai" is because terms with mechanics attached become loaded in definition, so once one, mechanically, becomes a Samurai, the other cannot be a Samurai; which is why I propose the name kensei, a term thats loaded with mysticism.

Most people itching for a class want there to be mechanics for sheathing and unsheathing. While I've seen swashbulker's panache system mentioned, I actually feel like a slightly different approach is better; having cool moves you can do with your sword sheathed, and cool moves you can do with it drawn; but cause you to sheathe your sword. A (really) rough set of example feats:

Kensei Dedication
You gain quick draw with one group of weapons. If you have Attack of Opportunity, Retributive Strike, or a similar reaction that allows you to strike, you may draw a weapon from the chosen group as a free action before making that reaction's strike....

I understand the issue with the class name, though I think that's probably already true for other classes. Like introducing an NPC as a bard that is just a plain bard with no magic. Or a more western style religious monk instead of the warrior monk class. I'm not attached to naming the class Samurai, but I think it wouldn't be hard to differentiate the profession from the class in game if that's how things went.

I like your idea for how feats could work! One set of feats work with a sheathed weapon and the other set works with an unsheathed weapon. You pick between the two pools of feats, letting you dance back and forth between different abilities. I would love to see this fleshed out as a full class and not a dedication though. I wonder what class possible class paths this could branch into.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Jedi Maester wrote:

I understand the issue with the class name, though I think that's probably already true for other classes. Like introducing an NPC as a bard that is just a plain bard with no magic. Or a more western style religious monk instead of the warrior monk class. I'm not attached to naming the class Samurai, but I think it wouldn't be hard to differentiate the profession from the class in game if that's how things went.

I like your idea for how feats could work! One set of feats work with a sheathed weapon and the other set works with an unsheathed weapon. You pick between the two pools of feats, letting you dance back and forth between different abilities. I would love to see this fleshed out as a full class and not a dedication though. I wonder what class possible class paths this could branch into.

Okay, actually, now that I think about it, the main interpretations (that I'm familiar with) of this type of warrior are: person in shirt/hakama, medium armored protag, or demon mask ronin type guy; so maybe a speed path, a more defensive/rounded path, and a damage path? Those would offer a range of expression, each with their own benefits.

I do think that both sheathed and unsheathed should have their own benefits though; I've noticed that a lot of people complain about classes that have action taxes to do their cool thing, so I feel with the class being modal, but each mode is interesting would be more satisfying. Making use of open for a lot unsheathing techniques, and press for sheathing techniques might encourage this flow between states while making each state feel powerful.

At least at my tables, mechanics where you spend actions to power up, and then release that power haven't been well recieved. Swash is really the only class that I've seen played that has a mechanic like that and the mechanic is actually liked.

I find this especially true with the magus, who, imo, actually flows a lot similar to this trope. I thought it was pretty obvious that the class was intended to ebb and flow between spellstriking and then using strikes and conflux spells and kind just dance between these states; but in the hands of players; this design intent didn't actually get communicated, so the player in my group who is a magus hust kinda spends one turn feeling cool, and one turn feeling like he can't be cool. I figure the way to defeat that is to just make the "recharging" action feel like something you want to do for more reasons than just "I need to do this otherwise I cant do the cool thing". I think this is why swashbucklers are favored in my group; demoralize or one for all are still great actions you'd want to take even without the panache mechanic

[Jedi Maester]

In order to encourage staying sheathed, I could see the class granting different options if you roll initiative while your weapon is sheathed. So you could do the classic stare down with a free demoralize option when you roll initiative with your weapon sheathed. Things like that.

I think a reload weapon options would be great to tie together the thematic similarities between the Samurai and Gunslinger from their respective films.

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

I do think that both sheathed and unsheathed should have their own benefits though; I've noticed that a lot of people complain about classes that have action taxes to do their cool thing, so I feel with the class being modal, but each mode is interesting would be more satisfying. Making use of open for a lot unsheathing techniques, and press for sheathing techniques might encourage this flow between states while making each state feel powerful.

I think you are correct in that the objective should be about making both modes interesting in their respective modes of play. They need to both be useful, but different from each other so that the contrast is interesting. A reason the player wants to "ebb and flow."

[PossibleCabbage]

Something like a stance that gives you a bonus to AC when you are wielding a sheathed weapon with two hands would work, since the action to re-sheathe mirrors the action to raise a shield or use a parry weapon.

[Temperans]

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

Jedi Maester wrote:

I understand the issue with the class name, though I think that's probably already true for other classes. Like introducing an NPC as a bard that is just a plain bard with no magic. Or a more western style religious monk instead of the warrior monk class. I'm not attached to naming the class Samurai, but I think it wouldn't be hard to differentiate the profession from the class in game if that's how things went.

I like your idea for how feats could work! One set of feats work with a sheathed weapon and the other set works with an unsheathed weapon. You pick between the two pools of feats, letting you dance back and forth between different abilities. I would love to see this fleshed out as a full class and not a dedication though. I wonder what class possible class paths this could branch into.

Okay, actually, now that I think about it, the main interpretations (that I'm familiar with) of this type of warrior are: person in shirt/hakama, medium armored protag, or demon mask ronin type guy; so maybe a speed path, a more defensive/rounded path, and a damage path? Those would offer a range of expression, each with their own benefits.

I do think that both sheathed and unsheathed should have their own benefits though; I've noticed that a lot of people complain about classes that have action taxes to do their cool thing, so I feel with the class being modal, but each mode is interesting would be more satisfying. Making use of open for a lot unsheathing techniques, and press for sheathing techniques might encourage this flow between states while making each state feel powerful.

At least at my tables, mechanics where you spend actions to power up, and then release that power haven't been well recieved. Swash is really the only class that I've seen played that has a mechanic like that and the mechanic is actually liked.

I find this especially true with the magus, who, imo, actually flows a lot similar to this trope. I thought it was pretty obvious that the class was...

That's because of a number of issues:

1) Feat and action taxes feel bad. They straight up do and if a player ends up liking them its more a matter of the player liking the puzzle than the mechanic being good.

2) Its often not justified. The swashbuckler is the only one that actually justifies it given that getting panache is not a stance (stacks with stances), can be used without being spent (so multiple play styles), has multiple ways to trigger (even if some of those are bad).

3) The idea of the magus was a class that was able to merge casting like a wizard and being able to do combat like a fighter, but only being the best when using both simultaneously. The fun was able to cheat the action economy to mix fighting with casting spells using their weapon, not being the guy who had to dance around spellstrike. But since this version does revolve entire around spellstrike, not being able to actually spellstrike feels bad.

4) Its the same reason why PF2 playtest kineticist felt bad. Paizo likes to add a bunch of taxes, and then not deliver on making a good payoff because there is a preset power cap. Spending two or more actions to do something does not give you more damage or a better effect (with a few exceptions). In other words more restrictions and taxes does not mean more power, and so a recharge for a payoff by its nature cannot work in the system.

******************

Nearly every class post CRB is based in a charge, payoff, recharge playstyle. Almost every class post CRB is complained about because of the recharge mechanics not the flavor.

[Pronate11]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Something like a stance that gives you a bonus to AC when you are wielding a sheathed weapon with two hands would work, since the action to re-sheathe mirrors the action to raise a shield or use a parry weapon.

That has the problem with A, requiring them to use a two handed weapon or forgo their free hand while sheathed (greatly reducing its utility), and B, you could use a bite attack or some other non handed weapon to get an almost permanent +2 ac

[Ed Reppert]

Kensai should be a Magus class archetype.

"Ah has spoken!" -- Mammy Yokum

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Potentially viable patch: You don't gain the AC benefit while wielding a shealthed weapon, you gain the benefit for 1 round by sheathing the weapon. Then it acts very much like raising a shield (with no Block option) since you'd have to draw and resheath next round to maintain the AC bonus and lose it until you've engaged the fight (presenting a very real power trade off in that you are actually as vulnerable as you seem until you have a chance to act.

[Temperans]

How about....

Use can use your sheath as a shield without any weird sheathing thing. Then given an actual benefit for choosing not to wield the weapon.

Like idk, being able to attack with the sheath. Being able to attack with unarmed strikes. Just straight up not having to raise shield (ala Paragon's Guard).

How about just removing the action tax of switching your hands. How about making it so you can draw your weapon as part of any strike instead of just quick draw. How about making a combo system that is less unsheath (benefit) + resheath (compensated recharge), and more unsheath (benefit) + can do other cool stuff once the sword is out.

Point is that there is absolutely zero need to narrow it down to just this one thing and they have to do this one thing or else they are playing bad. Let's please not repeat the same mistakes.

[Temperans]

Ed Reppert wrote:

Kensai should be a Magus class archetype.

"Ah has spoken!" -- Mammy Yokum

Yes kensai should be a magus archetype. If there was any magus that should have gotten the wavecaster treatment it was the kensai who truly was just "spam shocking grasp" then maximize the crit damage.

[Alchemic_Genius]

Temperans wrote:

How about....

Use can use your sheath as a shield without any weird sheathing thing. Then given an actual benefit for choosing not to wield the weapon.

Like idk, being able to attack with the sheath. Being able to attack with unarmed strikes. Just straight up not having to raise shield (ala Paragon's Guard).

How about just removing the action tax of switching your hands. How about making it so you can draw your weapon as part of any strike instead of just quick draw. How about making a combo system that is less unsheath (benefit) + resheath (compensated recharge), and more unsheath (benefit) + can do other cool stuff once the sword is out.

Point is that there is absolutely zero need to narrow it down to just this one thing and they have to do this one thing or else they are playing bad. Let's please not repeat the same mistakes.

The whole point of me proposing a sheath/unsheath mechanic is because that's generally what people up to this point wanted. Literally just super quick draw isn't really enough to make the feel of flashy anime iaijutsu (the whole reason I was confused earlier was specifically because I was just like "why not use quick draw?")

Also worth noting that in the system I proposed was unsheath (benefit) -> sheath (different benefit); it didn't include a "recharge" on purpose

[Temperans]

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

Temperans wrote:

How about....

Use can use your sheath as a shield without any weird sheathing thing. Then given an actual benefit for choosing not to wield the weapon.

Like idk, being able to attack with the sheath. Being able to attack with unarmed strikes. Just straight up not having to raise shield (ala Paragon's Guard).

How about just removing the action tax of switching your hands. How about making it so you can draw your weapon as part of any strike instead of just quick draw. How about making a combo system that is less unsheath (benefit) + resheath (compensated recharge), and more unsheath (benefit) + can do other cool stuff once the sword is out.

Point is that there is absolutely zero need to narrow it down to just this one thing and they have to do this one thing or else they are playing bad. Let's please not repeat the same mistakes.

The whole point of me proposing a sheath/unsheath mechanic is because that's generally what people up to this point wanted. Literally just super quick draw isn't really enough to make the feel of flashy anime iaijutsu (the whole reason I was confused earlier was specifically because I was just like "why not use quick draw?")

Also worth noting that in the system I proposed was unsheath (benefit) -> sheath (different benefit); it didn't include a "recharge" on purpose

I know you didn't. I am more saying it because I am seeing where the suggestions are going. I am literally getting flashbacks to all the posts from the precious classes about how doing X would be so cool, and the the playtest release and its a mess of action taxes.

Quick drawing the blade and stuff is cool. Quick stowing the blade and stuff is cool.
Quick drawing and stowing being a combat loop like spellstrike or gunslinger reload is not cool. I am deeply afraid that paizo will just do that, and people will just say "this is good because of the flavor of this one character", and we end up with another bad class.

[Jedi Maester]

Temperans wrote:

Quick drawing and stowing being a combat loop like spellstrike or gunslinger reload is not cool. I am deeply afraid that paizo will just do that, and people will just say "this is good because of the flavor of this one character", and we end up with another bad class.

Honestly, this is the kind of mechanic I wish the gunslinger had. I know getting fighter proficiency was a major cost on the power budget, but I don't think it made up for the reload cost as you pointed out. I would have preferred something like A_G is suggesting where you always have good options regardless of what state you are in. My panache-esque idea was meant to be similar, but I think the modal idea is a little more simple and elegant.

[Gortle]

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

-historical knight is already well supported

Historical Knight has a horse and a lance and that is not well supported. But you are talking about something else.

[Jacob Jett]

Hypothetically, like the samurai, one could use the fighter or champion to make a "historical knight" build.

This was much easier to fix in 3.5 where if one wanted they could back convert the 3.5 samurai class into a kind of "heritage warrior" by treeing feats together and building a substitution scaffolding. Such a class could be used to create a hoplite, immortal, or parthian horse archer as easily as a knight, cataphract, or samurai.

In theory, one might be able to yoke certain ancestry feats towards this end, perhaps via an "ancestry warrior" archetype. This would solve multiple issues for historical warrior castes and groups but doesn't really fix anything for anime-simulation group.

[Trixleby]

Gortle wrote:

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

-historical knight is already well supported

Historical Knight has a horse and a lance and that is not well supported. But you are talking about something else.

By not well supported do you mean Mounted Combat rules are bad, or the Cavalier dedication is bad stapled onto the chassis of a Fighter? Or even the Divine Steed ally and Champion class is bad?

Or is the lance just a poor weapon and not worth using?

[egindar]

With the advent of this thread and several preceding threads like it, I've been working on an archetype for the flashy loosely-iaido-inspired character trope in my spare time.

Currently the base implementation is a stance that lets you effectively treat a 1-handed melee weapon as requiring 1+ hands when you make Strikes with it, to represent holding it sheathed (or non-wielded) in one hand, then drawing, Striking, and sheathing it again. Mechanically all I've given in return is +1 die size, which seems to be about right for the transition from 1 hand to 1+ hand, but I think an extra benefit might be warranted for the stance and feat cost.

Ideally the whole thing is balanced against the fighter's free-hand feats (and not too synergistic with them). I'm also considering allowing 2-handed weapons to be used this way at the cost of a die size reduction, but have given that substantially less thought.

The rest of the feats are just various anime-inspired moves.

My goal is less for it to have a unique mechanical gimmick and more for it to have good compatibility with multiple classes and fulfill the flashy anime technique fantasy.

[Gortle]

Trixleby wrote:

Cavalier dedication is not terrible but not inspiring either.

The lance is a poor weapon and not worth using. But really it is what they did to the reach rules on mount, that what wipes out mounted builds.

[Arachnofiend]

Is the war lance not a sufficient fix?

[Gortle]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Is the war lance not a sufficient fix?

No. It is a negative. Most of the time the Parry trait in pointless as the +1 AC from mounted combat clashes with it. The Shove is a plus for sure. It is the fact that Reach doesn't work for large mounts which is the problem. I still can't see anyone using it.

[Trixleby]

I understand Reach is meaningful and powerful, but I’ve almost never played a reach build my entire TTRPGs career. I just basically don’t like how polearms look in general except for *very* specific aesthetics/builds.

So to me the fact that mounted combat doesn’t have reach doesn’t nuke a build for me. I expect to have to be adjacent to an enemy to hit it.

[Easl]

Sanityfaerie wrote:

One of them is the wandering swordsman / warrior-poet type. This is the guy who wants to walk around wielding a katana while not wearing armor. That's really all it takes - some way to have an unarmored character who wields a katana and who isn't wrong for doing so. The people who want this one would be happy with an archetype. Heck - they'd be happy with a level 1 fighter class feat. All it has to do is make the choice non-terrible, ideally from level 1.

Probably the easiest way to do this is to ask the GM to give the Katana the 'Monk' trait for your concept. Be a monk, take monastic weaponry, boom, you're done. Temple swords don't have finesse, so I don't think it's necessary here either.

If the other PCs object that this is a gimmie, then have the wandering swordsman use a feat like Unconventional Weaponry to represent the notion 'my monastery trained us with the katana.' It's not exactly RAW, but pretty close. And it doesn't look OP - the temple sword gets trip and higher base damage, while the katana has versatile and the 2-H option.

Option 3 would just be to play a straight up monk with monastic weaponry, and reskin/rename temple sword as "katana, wandering swordsaint variant". Now you're completely within RAW.