I was tinkering with a fighter build as back-up for one of my current characters and I just gave this weapon a good look for the first time. Now I think it is nuts on Fighter.
First of all, it has prone crit spec. We all know how strong that is. Second, it has the same damage the Glaive has, which already is a really good weapon, specially if you go for Certain Strike at level 10. Finally it has Sweep, making Swipe a really good option with it, making you not only good at single target, but giving you something good to do against multiple enemies.
It can also do Bludgeoning damage, which is the best type of physical damage generally speaking.
I just wanted to bring it a bit to the spotlight because I've seen no one talk about it. I'll for sure give it a try somewhere in the future. Are there other weapons from TV that you think have gone under the radar as well?
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It is also an Advanced weapon.
And uncommon, though that shouldn't change the balance.
Compared to the Glaive it gains Sweep and Versatile(B) but loses Reach.
It is certainly a good weapon, but I don't think it is out of balance for an Advanced weapon.
Not implying it is above the curve or anything. Just that it can be really good and I've seen no one talk about it for some reason.
The biggest thing it gains with advanced is the flail crit spec tbh.
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I've seen no one talk about it for some reason.
I'd guess it's because it's advanced without a trait corresponding to an ancestry or that we know is common in another culture. As such, it's iffy to get access to it and proficiency in it. This leads to thinking 'is it good enough to go through the hassle to get it'. IMO, it's fine but not a stand-out especially compared with those with clear access and proficiency avenues [like a Wrecker].
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You probably wont see much talk about it because progressing proficiency with it would be challenging for anyone not playing a fighter.
Even for a fighter you have to spend a feat to get that advanced weapon to legendary proficiency.
And at that point I'd rather choose something like the Meteor Hammer or Guisarme. Or even the War Flail.
Guisarme has reach and trip and d10.
Meteor Hammer is a d8 weapon, but has backswing, reach, disarm and trip.
War Flail has d10, disarm, sweep, and trip.
Consider fighters commonly take knockdown and improved knockdown because relying solely on flail specialization to knock someone down isn't going to work out.
I think the 3 weapons I mentioned are all better options than the 3 section naginata.
Comparing a reach weapon with a non-reach weapon is a bit meaningless. They are useful for completely different builds. The War Flail is a better comparison, but I think I would keep using the Three Section Naginata if I wanted to go for Swipe and have good consistent damage later on. Most 2 handed builds just lose Advantageous Assault if they go for Advanced Weapon Training. That's not a big deal since most of the time you will be using Certain Strike instead 4 levels onwards.
Also, that there are better options does not invalidate what I said. It is a good weapon and has not been discussed at all, that's the point of the thread, not saying that it is the best weapon of the system or anything remotely similar.
Finally, flail crit spec and Knockdown are not mutually exclusive necessarily. You can use both and not loose much until you get Improved Knockdown. Even then it is useful for the chance of prone on AoO.
I'd guess it's because it's advanced without a trait corresponding to an ancestry or that we know is common in another culture.
I think people are too afraid of picking Advanced Weapon Training sometimes. I agree it is only useful for fighter (and I think that's a shame, advanced weaponry should be easier to access), but losing that level 6 feat is most of the time a non issue for most Fighter builds.
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It is a good weapon and has not been discussed at all, that's the point of the thread, not saying that it is the best weapon of the system or anything remotely similar.
It's an ok weapon that is unfortunately advanced. For instance, it compares well vs a War Flail and that is martial...
I think people are too afraid of picking Advanced Weapon Training sometimes. I agree it is only useful for fighter (and I think that's a shame, advanced weaponry should be easier to access), but losing that level 6 feat is most of the time a non issue for most Fighter builds.
Well, you just answered your own question in your OP: it's, by your admission, only useful to fighters that take a specific 6th level feat. This means you're reducing interest in it dramatically AND it has to be good enough to overcome the opportunity cost of using another weapon and using that 6th level feat for something else like Shatter Defenses, Furious Focus, Advantageous Assault, ect...
Now, compare it to a Wrecker/Dwarven Dorn-Dergar/Nodachi/Falcata/Butchering Axe that can be had for any class that has martial proficiency and spends a 1st level ancestry.
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Something being niche does not make something bad. Also, among the options you posted, I find the weapon to be better than a few of them (Wrecker, Nodachi and Butchering Axe specifically).
Lots of advanced weapons are not selectable for Unconventional Weaponry or other level 1 ancestry feats. That this weapon is hard to get proficiency on is not a fault of the weapon, but a fault of advanced weaponry being too hard to get proficiency on.
Even if it is niche, I'd say that there is a place to discuss it as an option and if it is worth going through the hoops to be able to use it. I think it leads to an interesting and strong build, and thus I make a post.
So not really, I have not received a single answer to my question. All the answers to "is this weapon really good in this specific niche?" have been "that weapon is a niche weapon".
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I don't agree it's a niche weapon, because it doesn't really have a niche.
It trades damage for traits that increase damage, but by less than if it just had damage die to begin with, and then it's advanced on top of that.
It's just not really worth talking about because it's not very good.
Something being niche does not make something bad. Also, among the options you posted, I find the weapon to be better than a few of them (Wrecker, Nodachi and Butchering Axe specifically).
But better for who? For an Orc Barbarian, that Butchering Axe is a MUCH better option. If it is a niche, it's a niche for a niche build.
Lots of advanced weapons are not selectable for Unconventional Weaponry or other level 1 ancestry feats. That this weapon is hard to get proficiency on is not a fault of the weapon, but a fault of advanced weaponry being too hard to get proficiency on.
Advanced weapons are overall a bad option because of how advanced weapons work [not enough extra for the hoops needed to get access/proficiency]: that's just the way is. This is only really overcome by the feats that shift your proficiency to martial with them and that just leaves those that don't qualify for an ancestry feats just as less usable: it's a LOT harder to justify a 6th level class feat vs a 1st level ancestry feat.
Even if it is niche, I'd say that there is a place to discuss it as an option and if it is worth going through the hoops to be able to use it. I think it leads to an interesting and strong build, and thus I make a post.
I'm going to agree with Squiggit here: I'm not seeing the niche.
So not really, I have not received a single answer to my question. All the answers to "is this weapon really good in this specific niche?" have been "that weapon is a niche weapon".
If you see it that way, what niche do you see for it that isn't covered by other weapons?
The niche is that it is a panabas that changes one die size for deadly and flail crit spec.
Panabas is already a great weapon for the exact feat choices I mentioned, Swipe at 4 and Certain Strike at 10. I agree that for the most part going out of your way to get proficiency in this weapon is not worth it, but for a 2-handed fighter build, it is just a very minor loss.
It is not that it creates a niche, that niche was already covered by the Panabas, but it is a really good sidegrade compared to that option (losing a die size and a feat you don't care much about for deadly and flail crit spec looks good to me).
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The Panabas is also a pretty poor weapon, though. It's also martial.
So being a sidegrade to an already slightly underpowered weapon and requiring an expensive proficiency bump is a pretty poor look.
The Panabas is also a pretty poor weapon, though
I disagree. As I said, it is pretty good with Certain Strike. Pretty bad before that, that's for sure (just a worse Greataxe that can be 1-handed). No one forces you to commit to a single weapon during your whole adventuring career, though.
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Comparing a reach weapon with a non-reach weapon is a bit meaningless. They are useful for completely different builds.
It's not meaningless. It shows that you're giving up reach to use this weapon. And they're not completely different builds either. It's a couple of feats that you might select differently, while reach is generally universally good regardless of build. Especially on a fighter because of AoO.
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Lots of advanced weapons are not selectable for Unconventional Weaponry or other level 1 ancestry feats. That this weapon is hard to get proficiency on is not a fault of the weapon, but a fault of advanced weaponry being too hard to get proficiency on.
You're not wrong that it's a problem to most Advanced Weapons, but it doesn't change the evaluation that the three section naginata still isn't worth talking about for anyone who isn't at least a 6th level fighter.
My issue is that the idea of combining a naginata with a three-section staff is just terrible. This weapon’s key design principle is: maim anyone who tries to become proficient with it.
Ah, but if you wield weapon you automatically become proficient for fear of maim. Is very simple.
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The OP has mentioned certain strike in the context of using this weapon, and I'm trying to think how it would actually apply or be useful.
Any fighter could use certain strike, but it only applies on your second or 3rd strike in a round, and it's more like consolation damage on your attack.
And basically from what I can see your going to deal strength damage + weapon specialization damage and in the case of the three-section naginata you might get the bonus from forceful. But forceful is only adding between 1 and 6 damage, depending on if it's a 2nd or 3rd strike, and what level of striking rune you have. Compared to actually hitting with your weapon, this is a consolation prize, and doing it takes an action that you could spend on trying to do something more constructive.
I think the advantage of Forceful on Certain Strike is small. I'd rather actually hit, or do things that improve my chances of hitting, or if that doesn't help do some kind of action that will help the party contribute more.
I guess if I was already inclined to use Certain Strike (I'm not, I don't think it's that good) I might want a forceful weapon, but I'd probably just use a glaive.
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Well of course you'd rather hit, but missing on a followup attack isn't that uncommon, especially when you get deep in MAP which is what a forceful weapon wants you to do. The combo is pretty decent if all you're concerned about is maximizing total damage per round under ideal conditions.
That IMO highlights part of the problem with this category of weapon though, because you need to go really deep into MAP for it to start paying dividends.
Your ideal turn is starting adjacent to two opponents so you can hit them both with all your actions to trigger both sweep and forceful (and hopefully deadly somewhere in there), which means you're already looking to start from pretty specific circumstances to use your weapon properly. You also want someone to cast Haste on you so you can make more attacks.
And when all those things are true, you on average manage to barely, just barely, pull ahead of a regular maul (if you don't have certain strike, you can't even reliably do that).
That would be okayish, if slightly underwhelming, for our martial weapon (aka the panabas), but for an advanced weapon being usually worse than its martial counterparts is pretty bad.
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I guess that's my point though, I'd rather spend two actions to use Knockdown and follow it up with an action like Bon Mot or something else to help the whole group. Then on my next turn I can try to whale on the downed guy, and collectively we are probably doing more damage to the enemy than whatever extra damage I eek out from a missed attack with Certain Strike.
And with the three-seciton naginata as you note, it's very specific circumstances to get full use of it's traits.
It just seems like a poor plan IMO.
Wondering about a caster dipping for certain strike now... doesn't matter if you have proficiency if you are banking on missing.
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If you did want to go all in on this, Quick Reversal might be worth considering. You'll probably get flanked a lot with these tactics, and it can squeeze out another forceful strike.
Wondering about a caster dipping for certain strike now... doesn't matter if you have proficiency if you are banking on missing.
They couldn't get it before 20th level, and they'd be losing their Bespell Weapon type enhancements. Certain Strike is also a Press, and gish casters usually have better uses for their actions than attacking multiple times.
I guess that's my point though, I'd rather spend two actions to use Knockdown and follow it up with an action like Bon Mot or something else to help the whole group. Then on my next turn I can try to whale on the downed guy, and collectively we are probably doing more damage to the enemy than whatever extra damage I eek out from a missed attack with Certain Strike.
And with the three-seciton naginata as you note, it's very specific circumstances to get full use of it's traits.
It just seems like a poor plan IMO.
In the same way that you are using Bon Mot or Demoralize to set others up, others can use your Certain Strike to leverage more out of their buffs. Think of a Fervor Witch or a Thaumaturge with Share Weakness. In the Witch case you are doing 14 to 16 points of damage at level 10 failing your second and third attacks.
Nothing forbids you from using Knockdown either for this kind of build (You can get it at 4 and delay Swipe to 8 or viceversa, or get it with the level 9 class feature). Knockdown into Certain Strike is a pretty good 3 action routine.
My issue is that the idea of combining a naginata with a three-section staff is just terrible. This weapon’s key design principle is: maim anyone who tries to become proficient with it.Ah, but if you wield weapon you automatically become proficient for fear of maim. Is very simple.
Some weapons are advanced simply because they are not safe for the user (e.g. Fire Poi, the Bladed Hoop, the Dorn-Dergar, the Chain-Sword).
Some weapons are advanced simply because they are not safe for the user (e.g. Fire Poi, the Bladed Hoop, the Dorn-Dergar, the Chain-Sword).My issue is that the idea of combining a naginata with a three-section staff is just terrible. This weapon’s key design principle is: maim anyone who tries to become proficient with it.Ah, but if you wield weapon you automatically become proficient for fear of maim. Is very simple.
If that was the case then the various whips, Urumi, starknife, spiked chain, Sansetsukon, rope dart, Meteor Hammer, Kusarigama, Fangwire, Combat Grapnel, Bladed Scarf and Asp Coil would be advanced. I mean, whipping around a sickle or grappling hook on the end of a rope sounds more dangerous than a fire poi [unless you're Flammable].
Some weapons are advanced simply because they are not safe for the user (e.g. Fire Poi, the Bladed Hoop, the Dorn-Dergar, the Chain-Sword).My issue is that the idea of combining a naginata with a three-section staff is just terrible. This weapon’s key design principle is: maim anyone who tries to become proficient with it.Ah, but if you wield weapon you automatically become proficient for fear of maim. Is very simple.
Certainly, but advanced is still meant to mean something in terms of the game's math and some weapons just do not live up to that at all, like the weapon being discussed here.