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WOW! Did not expect this many replies to the post LOL! Especially from Mark (O_O')! Ok so definitely see her as less dumb now that I understand more. Big thanks to everyone. Even the Korn goblin ;P.
A lot of good takes and info here. While I have a better understanding of her and the gist of the gods I also note the also very valid critiques of gods and how theyre presented and how religion is handled. As noted by some theres no actual story of the event, simply a footnote. Overall will look into picking up Gods and Magic for the modern interpretations. Still quite a few plot holes, but ones I want to fill =).
As for those saying other planets, havent looked too far outside of Galorian as from what ive seen the other areas dont quite have any plot hooks that I can latch on. Me issue I know, but will see what more there is.
EDIT: lol not sure if OP replies auto create a page 2, but perfect timing I guess lol. Also glad the lore isnt simply:
"But now you shall surely lose worshipers", Said the Rough Beast.
"lol" said Sarenrae, "lmao".
Also thought of Sarenrae when I saw that Vox Machina ep as well.
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New page every 50 posts.
Edit option denied after 1st hour of posting.
Text formatting options detailed in drop-down beneath post window.
If you say smurf, you get smurfed.
Open secrets of the Paizo boards.
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In addition to the pantheons, we have both syncretism and splinter faith as mechanics for Clerics in the game.
Note also that only Clerics and Champions have to follow alignment restrictions. And deities' priests not belonging to those classes were already a thing in PF1.
Druids of Gorum were mentioned, for an interesting example.
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I like Sarenrae because.. she's a goddess of redemption, to be sure. And she will give evildoers every chance to come back. But once it's clear they can't (or won't) be redeemed, she will burn them to a crisp.
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I'm also not sure I want my TTRPG religion to look like religion in the real world, which is rather fraught.
Yep it seems to be very losely defined, and a very light take in general. Which is probably for the best. Building a proper religion is a lot of effort and it is likely going to be unappreciated by those that are unfamiliar with a wide range of beliefs.
Taking on religious or political themes in a game is best done voluntarily.
Paizo treats canon as a series of history books and myths. Everything is "canon" as much as a person wrote it down in a history book. Just like history books and myths, what is written down is not the full story of what actually happened. They specifically said that unless said otherwise everything from PF1 is still canon.
Canon was a lot less firm before this new edition. The Cult of the Dawnflower has been tossed out of canon, and it’s safe to assume “slavery-friendly Sarenrae” has gone with them.
These two notes beg the question: Is there a list somewhere of things that have been tossed out of canon along with a source for where that tossing was declared?
Or even for this claim in particular?
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Lawful Neutral Gray Paladins of Asmodeus. (This might actually have been reverted due to Champion being a thing).
Actually, I speculate if anything the fact that Asmodeus does not take any non-evil or non-lawful worshippers into his divine service to be a stronger indicator that non-evil Asmodean Champions are off the table--at least assuming we don't see a "You don't have to be your deity's alignment" heretic option posted somewhere, but that strikes me as a bit unlikely.
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I'm pretty sure "Asmodeus will never give you divine power unless you commit yourself wholly to the cause of Hell" is a very deliberate decision in order to position Asmodeus on the Mount Rushmore of "Most Evil Things in the Universe". Sure, there are people in Cheliax who will attend pay lip service to the Asmodean rites without personally being evil, but those people don't get the ability to throw hellfire around.
If there are supposed to be devils who will offer power to LN people in order to tempt them to turn towards LE, those aren't going to be the head-devil. If you really wanted to be the barrister who manipulates legalese to get an edge while remaining Lawful Neutral, Mephistopheles is a much better choice.
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Mephistopheles also only allows LE followers. Which is a bit of a shame given that his entire thing is using the temptation of power to lure people towards evil, though it's hard to enforce "you can start as an LN cleric but you're gonna turn LE eventually".
I'm still salty about CG Clerics of Gorum, though. A CG Gorumite can spend their entire life fighting wars against evil and never have to leave the Inner Sea. Coupled with the continued existence of Capitalism Paladins you can really feel the preference for law simply being more good than chaos.
I always assumed page 65 of Adv Path #29 Mother of Flies to be canon, unless I see somewhere that it isn't anymore. There's a whole section on Lawful Good paladins (rarely) serving Asmodeus.
For what it's worth, if you're looking for a devil to worship as a non-evil divine character, that would be Dispater, the only archdevil with demonstrable sympathy toward the cause of non-evil rulership and courtly love.
Meanwhile, I doubt that there will ever be an explicit, published refutation of Asmodean paladins, but they are functionally impossible in the current understanding of the the world. Asmodeus certainly has tyrant Champions to serve him, but even back in 2010, James Jacobs felt that Asmodean Paladins should have been vetoed from that very article, and that no example would come to exist in Golarion.
This may not be enough to disprove it from canon, but it does seem extremely unlikely that Asmodean Paladins exist in the current state of the lore, even rare ones. (On the other hand, a Paladin of the Godclaw can indirectly be said to serve Asmodeus in a distant respect while functionally serving a different god in a higher respect.
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Incidentally, characterising Abadar as the god of Capitalism misrepresents his emphasis on fair and healthy trade which would and does oppose the ills of capitslism--or at least I recall that being the case last time the question came up around here...
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The LG Champions of Asmodeus were tied to a 1e Trait associated with Holomog (where some old lore said they viewed him as an LN goddess of contract-writing, part of the celestial bargain that rules that nation). Between staff saying that lore is gone and the recent 2e trip to Holomog made no mention of such a thing, it's safe to say that's gone the way of the dodo.
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Incidentally, characterising Abadar as the god of Capitalism misrepresents his emphasis on fair and healthy trade which would and does oppose the ills of capitslism--or at least I recall that being the case last time the question came up around here...
Yeah capitalists love to characterize their dealings as fair and healthy, for the good of all. Furthermore this is exactly the problem; he's a lawful neutral deity but plenty of excuses and retcons are made for him to make him look as functionally Good as possible. I've at least seen some recent stuff where people outside the Inner Sea characterize his priesthood as harbingers of imperialism.
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I always assumed page 65 of Adv Path #29 Mother of Flies to be canon, unless I see somewhere that it isn't anymore. There's a whole section on Lawful Good paladins (rarely) serving Asmodeus.
Paladins of Asmodeus has been vetoed by the creatives since the moment it was talked about.
There doesn’t need to be an in-setting statement on it since In-setting it never existed in the first place, it’s not-canon.
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There doesn’t need to be an in-setting statement on it since In-setting it never existed in the first place, it’s not-canon.
I mean. It came out in an official publication, in an article about the setting. I didn't just make it up. So, it did exist in the setting.
If it's since been debunked, that's fine. I just wasn't aware that it had been.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My understanding is it's considered to an editorial error, from an universe setting standpoint it has been clarified to have never been accepted.
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Consider lore errors like "Paladins of Asmodeus" to be errataed. Sure, you can own a physical book that implies they exist, but I own a physical copy of the Advanced Class Guide that's full of things that stopped applying like 6 months later.
Tying "we can fix mistakes" to "which books get reprints" was never a great system.
It's almost like Paizo now has a digital resource for both 1st edition and 2nd edition Pathfinder rules, that incorporates errata upon reprinting into the digital database.
However it doesn't consider/contain the FAQ rulings from PF1, and books that weren't high volume sellers meant that they never got reprinted so they never received official edits to revise issues.
Such as adventure paths. Where the paladin of Asmodeus thing came from.
Oh, I see. So it was like universally retconned.
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Yes, IIRC James Jacobs the Creative Director responded to a thread where it was discussed and basically said that Paizo missed the mark because it should have never been published. IIRC it was a freelancer who wrote that section of the AP and whoever did the editing simply missed the whole Paladin and Asmodeus thing, or it didn't set off the alarms that it should have for them.
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The LG Champions of Asmodeus were tied to a 1e Trait associated with Holomog (where some old lore said they viewed him as an LN goddess of contract-writing, part of the celestial bargain that rules that nation). Between staff saying that lore is gone and the recent 2e trip to Holomog made no mention of such a thing, it's safe to say that's gone the way of the dodo.
It was older than this actually. But the Holomog trait made it possible (unintended but it worked so well). I predicted then that it would be the end of the clamor for Asmodean Paladins.
Not sure if there was indeed a link, but people stopped asking for those once they became legal (at the time). Yet another paradox of our hobby.
But yes, their inclusion was an early mistake, as was Erastil seeming to be a LG misogynist.