Does anyone have a point by point eval comparison of Paladin's vs War Priests?
I know BAB and Hit points for the
Paladin,
* Full BAB (v 3/4)
* D10 HP (v d8)
* Divine Grace (saving throws)
* Lay on hands & Mercies/ Fervor (Lay on hands is larger effect with added bonuses, but no selfcast)
War Priest
* Level 6 Spell Casting (v Lv 4, detect evil)
* 3 Additional Class Skills (Intimidation, Swim, Survival)
* Sacred Weapon (v Divine Bond, no mount option)
Equal
* Weapons & Armor
* Skill Progression
* Aura of Good/Aura
* Channel Energy
Unclassified: Paladin
* Smite Evil
* Aura of Divine Courage
* Divine Health
* Aura of Resolve (charm protection)
* Aura of Justice (Share Smite)
* Aura of Faith
* Aura of Righteousness
* Holy Champion
* Code of Conduct
Unclassified War Priest
* Blessings
* Focused Weapon (Free feat), + Bonus Feats (1 per 3 levels)
* Sacred Armor
* Aspect of War
Does anyone have a point by point eval comparison of Paladin's vs War Priests?
Well, we certainly do now. Thanks.
It’s a good break down. The hardest point of comparison is how randomly good and bad the blessings are. But I think in general the paladin and warpriest are well balanced against each other.
The paladin is “tougher”, having slightly more hit points and generally much better saves. The paladin also has better self healing with lay on hands and mercies. The warpriest self healing isn’t terrible but with a higher cost per effect.
The warpriest can be much more versatile with it’s prepared casting, though this will eat into their combat potential.
Offensively, I think the warpriest does better most of the time. Paladin smite is amazing but super limited. It’s impossible to know if you are using the smite on the right enemy for the day and not using it at all is a complete waste.
With respect, I think a point-by-point comparison (probably) misses the Warpriest’s greatest strengths relative to the Paladin: action economy and applicability in combat.
So much of what makes the Warpriest shine—activating Sacred Weapon, effectively getting Quicken Spell with no spell level adjustment—comes as a swift action. By contrast, if the Paladin hasn’t had a chance to prepare for a battle, it’s not out of the ordinary for him to need 1-2 standard actions (and thus rounds) to get set.
The Paladin still punches harder (especially with Unsanctioned Knowledge and the right spell selection), but his “target audience” is far more limited than the Warpriest’s—and the only ways I’m aware of that expand Smite Evil’s application results in fewer uses of Smite per day (e.g., Gray Knight archetype, Oath Against Chaos).
Fervor is a huge boon to warpriests, being able to swift-cast self target spells can help to turn the tide of battle quickly.
Paladin is more defensive and has higher survivability in general, but they are only super effective in a couple combats per day if any. Generally they do best acting as a tank until a powerful evil target takes the field. Warpriest, on the otherhand, can be a deadly combatant, party buffer, and/or healer whenever and wherever they are needed.
Personally, I don't usually bother with a point by point evaluation between classes unless there is a specific niche or focus that you trying to look at between the two classes. Ie, which class can be better suited for a specific concept or specific overall intention. The classes (and archetypes available) are complex enough that you will never settle on an objective scale to weigh them properly in all situations.
For example:
1) Spellcasting? The war priest generally comes ahead in most situations due to their ability to swift-action buff themselves, though it does use resources they could employ elsewhere. BUT the paladin does have a few swift actions spells unique to them that can close the gap. Their Spell DCs tend to be about the same, as neither really benefits from more than 16 in their casting stat that isn't better spent elsewhere. The Warpriest does have a better caster level than the Paladin.
2) Self-Healing? They are about tied, with the Warpriest squeezing ahead due to their larger spell list and swift-action casting, though the Paladin has mercies and a larger dice pool for their lay on hands.
3) Weapon damage? Pretty much tied between all the abilities in question (assuming Weapon Bond is chosen for the Paladin) though the Paladin edges out the Warpriest when it comes to dealing with obviously evil creatures due to their Smite Evil and ability to bypass any/all damage reduction they possess.
A Warpriest fills a niche that falls between the Cleric and the Paladin (Cleric -> Warpriest -> Paladin -> Fighter).
I agree with you almost entirely, but I think the “couple combats per day” point is overstated. You could say the same thing about practically every full spellcaster for the first few levels.
I agree with you almost entirely, but I think the “couple combats per day” point is overstated. You could say the same thing about practically every full spellcaster for the first few levels.
You could say similar things about the warpriest itself. Fervor is amazing but you are burning through 2 sets of resources when you use it for spells. It’s not like you’ll have many 1st level spells to use with it in early levels. And using fervor for spells means that you can’t use it as often for its other uses.
I think the idea that something has to be 'super effective' for a few combats a day is a bit ... silly. That they can be super effective at all is something to be admired. Save it for the boss fights. Most CR equivalent fights can be handled without the expenditure of a single spell at the lower levels.
Yeah, fair point, Melkiador!
My RotRL campaign has had a warpriest and paladin side by side in it from level 1 to 16 (where it is currently stalled). The warpriest is a vanilla archer build with the air and weather blessings, the paladin is a chosen one archetype with a heavy defensive focus.
The warpriest has been consistent in destroying foes, at all times and levels. The paladin contributes damage in every fight, but only shines when he can close to melee and smite a significant foe. I should say that is the only time the paladin personally shines, when he uses that aura that shares smite and the warpriest starts lobbing baned, smiting arrows it is disgusting.
While fervor is limited it doesn't seem any more so than daily spells, channels or any other party resource.
Very unfair to compare an archery build to a melee build. If you had an archery paladin and a melee warpriest, you would likely have the opposite impression.
The only caveat I would offer to that, Java, is that (IMHO, of course) archer builds tend to shine against non-pouncing melee builds in most situations precisely because of the need to get close to enemies.
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Oh, archer vs melee is a significant part of the equation, no question. But this is my only side by side experience, so I described it with, what I hope is enough details, to provide useful insight for others.
Edit: the paladin also gave up divine bond for his familiar, so is lacking the offensive boost from that.
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I think these 2 classes often cover similar roles in a party, but play differently. My general take is that the Warpriest will probably deal more damage overall in the average adventuring day, but the Paladin is a boss-killer and will do more damage against a few specific foes per day.
Defensively the Paladin is the unrivaled king, but the Warpriest is definitely a high-tier tank if you don't feel like playing a Paladin.
For utility the Warpriest is probably better overall, but it's hard to say. I love that Paladins get interesting and unique mechanics that set them apart but it's hard to compete with the versatility of a higher level spell list. We're essentially comparing the Paladin's 4th level spells, Mercies and Auras against the Warpriest's 6th level spells, Blessings and Fervor.
One thing I will say for the Paladin is that there is more utility than you'd think in having a virtually unkillable character. There's a noticeable difference between "Tough" and "Invincible". That idea of a boss-killing Paladin is much more threatening when you also have the highest saves in the party, immunity to some powerful effects, high AC and a virtually unlimited HP pool. It can also allow you to achieve other objectives while being attacked or in areas with serious traps or hazards, or to save the rest of your party in those circumstances.
Oh, from an adversarial standpoint, different strategies should be pursued against Paladins and Warpriests! Suddenly a Succubus who figured out how to phase through the 4th wall shows up.
A pretty big thing about warpriests is that they are quite suceptible to silence effects, or anything that grapples them or otherwise renders it complicated for them to cast spells. A Paladin generally speaking cares much less about this! Paladins also have annoyingly high reflex saves compared to melee warpriests, rendering it pretty annoying to push them into pits, have them slip on grease etc.!
Of course, you can attack a Paladins capability to actually be a Paladin, but that is generally speaking the last refuge of an uncreative Demoness. Paladins are also more predictable and dogmatic then warpriests, which can have sizeable strategic results.
My personal favorite is to have serving staff with the capability to look like me, while not actually being evil. Its a great way to eat into the smite pool.
I am not so sure the warpreist is going to out damage the paladin that much in normal combat. The paladin has the advantage of being a full BAB class so after 6th level will be getting more attacks per round. If the paladin is facing a really tough opponent there is a good chance, they will be using smite evil in which case their damage jumped through the roof and left the warpreist in the dust. If the opponents are minions the paladin will not bother with the smite evil, but the minions will usually be a lot easier to hit which makes the extra attacks even better.
I compared a paladin and a warpreist at 12th level both with a 20 STR and using a falchion. The paladin has power attack; the wapreist has power attack, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization. The paladin had to use a normal feat for power attack where the warpreist used one of his bonus feats. That leaves the paladin one less feat than the warpreist. The paladin gets three attacks at +13/+8/+3, the warpreist gets two at +13/8. The paladin does 2d4+19 for damage vs the warpreist 1d10+20. The warpreist does an average of 1.5 more per hit than the paladin, but the paladin gets an extra attack. When going up against multiple lower AC minions the extra attack is going to be better.
I think something that clouds the comparison is the existence of the Arsenal Chaplain archetype, and if you ignore the attached RP to it's pretty much an upgrade over the base Warpriest that gives weapon training and access to advanced weapon training. And while warpriest BAB is lower, the buffing from spells and in general the flexibility of the warpriest due to fervor and spells usually wins in my book.
If your in a campaign where you know you're going to be fighting A LOT of evil enemies paladin can be a great choice, but you're still somewhat limited in the amount of smites you have. You're going to be more defensive, but still doing decent damage if you wield a two-handed weapon with power attack.
The warpriest can fervor divine favor for any fight that feels worth it and be doing as much or more damage than the paladin, and not only against evil enemies.
To me the warpriest biggest draw is flexibility.
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As the 2 classes reach higher levels, the warpriest can be assumed to have certain kinds of buffs, for almost every fight and opponent. Divine Favor or Divine Power starts to become assumed, and the warpriest eventually has enough spell slots and Fervor points to start every combat with it.
But no matter how high level, the paladin won't normally have enough uses to smite every enemy they face that day.
Personal experience playing a warpriest in a campaign alongside a paladin who has a very similar build to my own… despite personally having higher AC than the paladin, he’s got greater sustain in close combat due to Lay on Hands. When it comes to attacking however, I tend to come out on top, though that is likely due to how insanely broken Desna’s Shooting Star + Startoss Style is…
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Does anyone have a point by point eval comparison of Paladin's vs War Priests?
No, because comparing classes is seriously really complicated. As I often say, what's best depends on what you actually want, and what the party and campaign look like.
What you did here is more of a lineup than a comparison. An actual comparison would need to look at specific things to do (e.g. condition removal), and check what each class's toolbox in that regard looks like.
The hardest point of comparison is how randomly good and bad the blessings are.
What are you talking about? We all know that in reality, all Warpriests get the War blessing and none other!
The only caveat I would offer to that, Java, is that (IMHO, of course) archer builds tend to shine against non-pouncing melee builds in most situations precisely because of the need to get close to enemies.
People are still building non-pounce melee builds? In this economy?
The paladin has the advantage of being a full BAB class so after 6th level will be getting more attacks per round.
Except for 8th, 9th, 10th, and 15th level, to be precise. If you make your comparison at 10th rather than 12th level, it looks significantly different.
When going up against multiple lower AC minions the extra attack is going to be better.
If you pick a combat style that all but invalidates the Warpriest's biggest advantage over the Paladin, of course the latter looks better. If you compare two archery builds, a fervor'd Warpriest is actually on par compared to a smiting Paladin.
• Paladin: +4 comp(+2)longbow, PBS/Rapid Shot/Manyshot, Smite Evil active: 128.3/256.6
• Warpriest: +4 comp(+2)longbow, PBS/Rapid Shot/Manyshot, WF/GWF/WSpec/GWSpec/Deadly Aim, Divine Power active, Sacred Weapon on 2. turn: 126.1/296.8
Past low level, the paladin's weapon Divine Bond can often be a pre-buff. It's minutes per level and you can use it multiple times per day. Probably a bigger contributor than the only rounds per day Sacred weapon the warpriest uses.
Now, I suppose you could assume the paladin uses the mount divine bond, but then you have to calculate its contribution to damage.
Past low level, the paladin's weapon Divine Bond can often be a pre-buff. It's minutes per level and you can use it multiple times per day. Probably a bigger contributor than the only rounds per day Sacred weapon the warpriest uses.
Now, I suppose you could assume the paladin uses the mount divine bond, but then you have to calculate its contribution to damage.
I mean, you're not accounting for the almost default of going Arsenal Chaplain warpriest which get's you Weapon Training, and advanced Weapon training (via feats) which can allow you to pick up Warrior Spirit which can allow you to enhance your weapon beyond what one could normally have for the level and or pick up Bane for whatever the fiercest enemy in the fight is. It is a standard action to activate which sucks, but then you're getting a +2 enhancement bonus and 2d6 damage against the selected creature type, which is amazing!
Honestly, Arsenal Chaplain should be the baseline assumed Warpriest unless someone really wants something specific with blessings.
Warrior Spirit is great, but it's 1 minute per use, not per level, so it's a lot harder to prebuff with. With paladin weapon bond you can start it, and open up a few doors in a row till you find something you would want to use it on. And then you still might have enough duration to benefit from that use on the next fight. At a certain point, as the duration increases and the uses per day increase, I think you can assume you'll have the weapon bond bonus most of the adventuring day.
Also, it won't matter for most people these days, but warrior spirit isn't PFS legal, so I'm not sure if we should be counting it as the baseline.
Warrior Spirit is great, but it's 1 minute per use, not per level, so it's a lot harder to prebuff with. With paladin weapon bond you can start it, and open up a few doors in a row till you find something you would want to use it on. And then you still might have enough duration to benefit from that use on the next fight. At a certain point, as the duration increases and the uses per day increase, I think you can assume you'll have the weapon bond bonus most of the adventuring day.
Also, it won't matter for most people these days, but warrior spirit isn't PFS legal, so I'm not sure if we should be counting it as the baseline.
Eh, I don't think PFS legal matters anymore for PF1 stuff, unless someone explicitly calls out that they're trying to be compliant.
Regarding the duration, I did note that it would be a standard action to use at the start of combat, although I didn't explicitly call it out as due to duration.
However, I do want to look at a 12th level warpriest in comparison to a paladin (which would in theory favor the paladin with higher BAB).
Fevor(Divine Power, which includes an extra attack like haste) gives a +4 to attack and damage, +4 from weapon training (assumed use of Gloves of Dueling), and Warrior Spirit (standard action for +3 to attack and damage plus Bane). It's a huge shift in attack and damage netting you +13 to attack and damage along with 2d6 damage bonus. You can't do it every combat, but you also shouldn't need to go THAT hard every battle either.
Value is a little lower if someone in the party reliably casts haste for the paladin, but Warpriest can flex so hard it's crazy. Arsenal Chaplain archer warpriest is one of the highest damage builds out there.
The thing you need to make sure is that you're focusing on things the Paladin can't get with feat investment. I know that it's not like for like with regard to class features, but there's so much value to be found in the Bard, Cleric, Inquisitor, and Oracle spell lists (Divine Power among those spells) that Unsanctioned Knowledge should be a borderline prerequisite for a Paladin.
If we're talking archer paladin vs archer Warpriest the paladin is in trouble, because they don't have the bonus feats to keep up with a feat intensive play style. And archer deal superior damage, especially when either lacks an easy way to pounce.
However, we should keep in mind that not everything is about damage.
The paladin is definitely better at taking punishment thanks to Lay on Hands (can heal others too and remedy conditions), and to do that the Warpriest needs to spend spell slots which isn't nearly as effective since the Warpriest wants to spend those to amp up damage. The Warpriest doesn't have as strong of saves.
The Warpriest does have up to 6th level cleric spells vs the 4th level paladin list, which is definitely a worse list, but as mentioned Unsanctioned knowledge can grab some very good spells. Although the paladin still isn't as good at self buffing compared to the Warpriest due to Fervor.
Anyways, overall I find the warpriest more flexible, and can burst into higher damage than the paladin, can handle feat intensive combat styles better, and is generally more fun for me to play.
If you want to be tankier and the campaign will focus pretty much exclusively on evil enemies with very few neutral, the paladin can be a fine choice.
At 10th level the paladin is doing 2d4+16 and the warpreist is doing 1d10+15. At this level the paladin actually does .5 points more damage without buffs. The paladin is still holding his own at damage at this level. The paladin’s higher BAB means that power attacks is giving him a few extra points of damage, and the warpreist does not get greater weapon specialization. Both classes are doing decent damage even without buffs, but the superiority of the warpreist is highly questionable.
The paladins big advantage is not smite evil, it is the fact they are the toughest class in the game to take out. Technically they only have two good saves, but Divine Grace means they have two incredibly good saves and one good save. A DEX based paladin will end up with three incredibly good saves. I had a dervish dancer paladin of Sarenrae that was incredibly tough to take out. The DEX also boosted his touch AC which is usually a weak spot for the paladin (and the warpreist).
As to the archery build don’t forget that the warpreist needs to account for DR, while the smiting paladin does not. A creature with even DR 5 means the warpreist is doing 20 less points be round.
The Warpriest has plenty of feats for clustered shots, and durable arrows of whatever material type are cheap enough too.
Can you show how you calculated the damage bonuses you arrived at?
Because I have to assume you're not taking into account the self buffing of the Warpriest + Weapon Training + Warrior Spirit.
I realize it's not technically the default, and requires a round to buff, but the amount of bonus it grants is a lot. It rivals the paladin, even when they are smiting, but with the added bonuses of working against any enemy type.
The damage I am talking about is when the characters are not using any limited use buffs. Mostly in response to MrCharisma stating the warpreist deal more damage in the average adventuring day. It is based on both characters using a falchion with a 20 STR and power attack. As I stated the paladin had to burn 1 standard feat for this where the warpreist is only using his bonus feats. To me this is a better measure of the classes as the character are using minimal other resources. The Idea was to measure how well the class can do without using any limited resources. The Idea is to look at the baseline damage that the character can do all day long. If you are looking at the maximum damage that the class can do you have to figure in the double damage for the first strike for a smite evil vs an evil dragon, outside or undead. That would put the paladins damage up to 2d4+43 on the first hit.
I am not factoring in any archetypes because then it becomes which specific build is better. For example, I could go with a tempered champion paladin and pick up the same number of extra feats the warpreist gets. When I do that the paladin’s damage jumps up to three attacks at +15/+10/+5 and his damage goes up to 1d10+23.
If you are factoring in spells the paladin can cast bless weapon before the battle. This means the paladin automatically confirms any critical threats vs. an evil creature. On a high critical weapon like a falchion the paladin could have a 25% chance of getting a critical hit on an evil creature if he takes improved critical. At minimum that gives him a 5% chance to critical with every hit.
Don’t get me wrong both classes are very good. But I think people are underestimating the paladin. The paladin’s bonuses are more circumstantial and for the most part is mainly when he is fighting evil. But they when they are fighting evil, they are among the best in the game. Both classes seem to have a similar low damage threshold. The paladin’s upper threshold is higher but cannot reach it quite as often.
Does Arsenal Archtype have a different name (did a 1 min look for it on AoN, did not see, but did not read the whole list so thinking a regional name then Arsenal?)
Does Arsenal Archtype have a different name (did a 1 min look for it on AoN, did not see, but did not read the whole list so thinking a regional name then Arsenal?)
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Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain, is this what you are looking for?
Surprised it didn’t come up in a quick google search.Does Arsenal Archtype have a different name (did a 1 min look for it on AoN, did not see, but did not read the whole list so thinking a regional name then Arsenal?)
Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain, is this what you are looking for?
Yup, thank you very much. What happens when I am on my phone and only do a real quick search :)
The Idea was to measure how well the class can do without using any limited resources.
What for? A 12th level Warpriest will never fight anything slightly meaningful without at the very least Divine Favor active. That's a first level spell that a Warpriest using first and second level spell slots could cast a dozen tiems per day, which grants a +4 to attack and damage rolls, and easily lasts an entire encounter. Treating that the same as an ability that the Paladin can only use on four targets a day is so disconnected from reality that the comparison is meaningless.
As to the archery build don’t forget that the warpreist needs to account for DR, while the smiting paladin does not.
Even if you add Clustered Shots to the Warpriest and Deadly Aim to the Paladin, the damage is still pretty close, and a MAC is still ahead.
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Some thoughts after reading all that.
People compared the Paladin's weapon Divine Bond to the Warpriest's Sacred Weapon. The Paladin's Divine bond is more akin to the Warpriest's swift-action Divine Favour, it's what you use for standard combats with many enemies. Sacred Weapon is more like Smite, it's what you use when you need that extra oomph. The Warpriest's Divine Favour will be more impactful for most combats than the Paladin's Weapon Bond, but Smite will definitely outdo Sacred Weapon.
Regarding damage throughout the day, the Warpriest gets feats. The Paladin with a Flachion isn't going up against a Warpriest with a Falchion, they're going up against a Warpriest with a Fauchard, Cleaving Finish and Improved Critical - they're going to get more attacks or more damage or something else to give them an edge that the Paladin can't copy. If your Warpriest makes a build that a Paladin can compete with then you're doing your feats wrong .
As for the baseline damage that they can do "all day long": A 10th level Warpriest likely has ~10 more spells per day than a Paladin, ~9 Fervour and enough money for ~5 first level Pearls of Power fairly easily. This means there's literally no reason not to be buffing every combat. Refusing to include spells and Fervour is like ignoring the Paladin's Lay on Hands , and without that the Paladin is only about 11HP tougher than the Warpriest .
Also regarding LoH - the Warpriest can actually emulate this with Fervour. It's usually not the best use of your Fervour, but having this option is better than not having it. A 10th level Paladin has 5d6 healing to a Warpriest's 3d6 . It's more likely that the Paladin buffs this with feats , but both classes can technically take this feat and I don't think it's really fair to judge a class based on the idea that it always takes 1 particular feat - even if they all do.
I also don't think you can call the Warpriest better based solely on the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain. If it needs that archetype to compete then the class isn't better, it's the archetype propping it up. If we ARE picking an archetype to compare to the Paladin it should probably be the CHAMPION OF THE FAITH.
Also this is a separate thing, but I do all my Paladin-building with a Weapon Divine Bond. I've never been huge on mounted builds, so I haven't done much with this but it is an option too.
For all of you out there with a Divine Mount, how do you fare generally? Now how do you fare when you can't use your mount?
Obviously in optimal circumstances your Spirited Charge with Smite will 1-shot the boss, but how does it fare in morr usual circumstances?
The damage I am talking about is when the characters are not using any limited use buffs. Mostly in response to MrCharisma stating the warpreist deal more damage in the average adventuring day. It is based on both characters using a falchion with a 20 STR and power attack. As I stated the paladin had to burn 1 standard feat for this where the warpreist is only using his bonus feats. To me this is a better measure of the classes as the character are using minimal other resources. The Idea was to measure how well the class can do without using any limited resources. The Idea is to look at the baseline damage that the character can do all day long. If you are looking at the maximum damage that the class can do you have to figure in the double damage for the first strike for a smite evil vs an evil dragon, outside or undead. That would put the paladins damage up to 2d4+43 on the first hit.
I am not factoring in any archetypes because then it becomes which specific build is better. For example, I could go with a tempered champion paladin and pick up the same number of extra feats the warpreist gets. When I do that the paladin’s damage jumps up to three attacks at +15/+10/+5 and his damage goes up to 1d10+23.
If you are factoring in spells the paladin can cast bless weapon before the battle. This means the paladin automatically confirms any critical threats vs. an evil creature. On a high critical weapon like a falchion the paladin could have a 25% chance of getting a critical hit on an evil creature if he takes improved critical. At minimum that gives him a 5% chance to critical with every hit.
Don’t get me wrong both classes are very good. But I think people are underestimating the paladin. The paladin’s bonuses are more circumstantial and for the most part is mainly when he is fighting evil. But they when they are fighting evil, they are among the best in the game. Both classes seem to have a similar low damage threshold. The paladin’s upper threshold is higher but cannot...
Alright, I generally agree with your assessment.
I do still think the Arsenal Chaplain burst can exceed even the smiting paladin but I haven't run the numbers to be sure.
So baseline of the two is comparable, although I would say that once you reach level 4 or so warpriest are rarely going to fight at their baseline since they can Fevor Divine favor for pretty much every combat (although this does use up all their spell slots, but it's a pretty good use).
For me what pushes the warpriest ahead is not only is the burst damage on par or better than the paladin, they can use it against more types of enemies and have a better spell list for flexibility.
Where the paladin excels is at a better defense and especially self healing.
My paladin in WotR used monstrous mount to have a griffin. In that AP it had no problem getting around as by level 5 most the enemies were pretty big too. Its damage was decent, but it obviously didn’t compare well to the mythic ranger in the party when it came to damage.
The paladin mount does have the advantage that you can summon it past obstacles it may normally be difficult to get a mount through.
Also this is a separate thing, but I do all my Paladin-building with a Weapon Divine Bond. I've never been huge on mounted builds, so I haven't done much with this but it is an option too.
For all of you out there with a Divine Mount, how do you fare generally? Now how do you fare when you can't use your mount?
Obviously in optimal circumstances your Spirited Charge with Smite will 1-shot the boss, but how does it fare in morr usual circumstances?
I think the only time to use a mount is when you want to build a lancer charge build paladin.
That said, it is reasonable to build a small size paladin with a medium mount and not have it's access restricted anywhere (halfling paladin with a riding dog?).
But I personally find mounted charger builds pretty boring. Too many things can prevent charging, and while there are feats to help get around difficult terrain or needing to turn it still sucks to me. And then you either miss or explode the enemy on contact. I've played it, it was fun for a short time but I wouldn't want to play it for a long campaign.
As animal companions lose effectiveness as we level up, I can't imagine picking one up for anything other than mobility. At low levels the companion is effective enough as a flanking partner and damage dealer, but it falls off as you level up and doesn't have enough sturdiness without sinking gold into the companion to shore up saves and AC. Although if your group uses ABP and allows animal companions to receive the same bonuses that can go a long way to helping animal companions not become irrelevant.
I also don't think you can call the Warpriest better based solely on the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain. If it needs that archetype to compete then the class isn't better, it's the archetype propping it up.
Agreed. Comparing the base paladin to the offensively strongest warpriest archetype seems a bit biased. Like comparing Barb with Primalist Bloodrager.
(Coincidentally, I think neither of those archetypes should have been written)
Also this is a separate thing, but I do all my Paladin-building with a Weapon Divine Bond. I've never been huge on mounted builds, so I haven't done much with this but it is an option too.
For all of you out there with a Divine Mount, how do you fare generally? Now how do you fare when you can't use your mount?
Obviously in optimal circumstances your Spirited Charge with Smite will 1-shot the boss, but how does it fare in morr usual circumstances?
That's funny, I feel the opposite about Weapon Divine Bond. You've already got Divine Favor on the pally class list (Pearls of Power lasts you an entire day) so using another standard action buff just never looked attractive. Offensively you've got the old boring Spirited Charge, sure. But with a single dip into Sohei you can get Mounted Skirmisher way before level 14 which is a treat on a class with no inherent mobility.
For sneaking your mount in where it doesn't belong there's the Hosteling armor enchant, or a wand of that hunter spell I can't recall. The already existing TP-to-me ability is of course good for this... but just remember to save one use to get your mount out of there.
But the bigger issue is that you're bringing another creature to the frontline whose tank capabilities are way worse than yours. "Kill the general's horse" still holds true, so I recommend the Shining Knight archetype for boosting its saving throws (which also solves the ACP issue) and Passing Grace to make it benefit from your swift-action LoH.
Shared Training is on the Pally spell list which allows the rest of the party to benefit as well. And beyond the action economy, the real draw of Passing Grace is that your Fey Foundling/Tiefling FCB pally can heal others with their supercharged LoH.
I also don't think you can call the Warpriest better based solely on the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain. If it needs that archetype to compete then the class isn't better, it's the archetype propping it up.Agreed. Comparing the base paladin to the offensively strongest warpriest archetype seems a bit biased. Like comparing Barb with Primalist Bloodrager.
(Coincidentally, I think neither of those archetypes should have been written)
I think if we're going to do a comparison we SHOULD compare the best options available for the sort of thing we're comparing.
The Arsenal Chaplain loses almost nothing of value compared to what it's gaining, especially for an archery focused build.
Choose whatever Paladin archetype you like.
Sure Arsenal chaplain is perhaps the easiest go to archtype because of it's strength, but that's exactly the point. It's the go to archetype of Warpriest. Baring some really specific goal, if you want to be a martial character with a decent bit of cleric spell access you play a Warpriest and the Arsenal Chaplain excels at that kind of role by default over the no archetype class.
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The MAC really is an over-tuned archetype. Consistently trades out stuff that isn’t highly desired for stronger options.
I think the only reason it was allowed to squeak by is that the class itself was a bit under-tuned. It’s similar to how monk and rogue got so many archetypes that were clear upgrades to the base class.
Ultimately, the warpriest does a little more damage on average while the paladin is tougher. The warpriest has higher versatility, but relying on that versatility cuts into the resources that were fueling its damage.
Maybe the big paladin advantage is buffing. The paladin auras are varied and powerful. Paladin is a much more natural support than the warpriest, who is mostly focused on only benefitting himself.
If you are factoring in spells for the warpreist you have to do the same for the paladin especially for burst damage. While he does not get as many as the warpreist he does have access to some very strong paladin only spells. The two that come to mind are bless weapon and litany of righteousness. Bless weapon does take a standard action to cast but last long enough that it could be cast before the combat and still be up. Litany of righteousness is a swift action. Since smite evil is also a swift action the paladin would already have to have smite evil up, or it will take a round to get up.
If both those spells are up and the paladin is smiting evil the damage potential is absurd. It would take some work for that to occur, but not as much as people think. If the evil boss has a bunch of minions protecting him the paladin could have bless weapon already up, when the encounter begins. He declares smite evil on the boss in the first round and attacks the minions to clear a way through to the boss. After a couple of rounds he finally gets to the boss. When the paladin attacks, he uses a swift action to cast litany of righteousness. Assuming the paladin manages to roll a 15 or above with a falchion or similar weapon on his first successful attack the attack is a critical hit. If the boss is an evil dragon, outsider or undead, then the paladin gets twice his level to damage. The paladin in my example would be doing 150 points of damage on an average roll with a +2 weapon. The damage on any other strikes or if the boss is not taking the double level damage would be 117. Now this is under ideal circumstances, and it is going to be rare, but can happen. This is the celling of burst damage, and I don’t think the warpreist can do this.
Another option would be for the paladin to take the tempered champion archetype, and trade away his spells. This gains him the sacred weapon damage increase of a warpreist and bonus feats like the warpreist. The warpreist is ahead because he gets 1 weapon focus for free at 1st level.
I don't think any damage comparison will be perfect or model the wide variety of options out there. I hope we could just all agree the WP should do more damage on average than the paladin, but that the difference is fairly minor.
Honestly, the fact that there is this much contention about this issue serves as proof of how closely balanced the two options are to each other.
I think if we're going to do a comparison we SHOULD compare the best options available for the sort of thing we're comparing.
Yeah that's fair. I just think comparing the baseline Paladin to the tippy-top Warpriest is a bit one-sided.
The MAC really is an over-tuned archetype. Consistently trades out stuff that isn’t highly desired for stronger options.
I agree that it's overtuned , but I also think you do lose out for this archetype, specifically you lose Blessings. Now the War Blessing and Weapon Training are probably stronger offeneive options than any 2 Blessings, but there are some nice Blessings out there and the MAC can't take them.
If you are factoring in spells for the warpreist you have to do the same for the paladin especially for burst damage ... The two that come to mind are bless weapon and litany of righteousness.
We absolutely should, and those are both excellent spells. Litany of Righteousness is another spell that makes the Paladin the ultimate Boss Killer .
Another option would be for the paladin to take the tempered champion archetype, and trade away his spells.
I did think about that. I think it makes a decent Paladin as well, but I think comparing a Tempered Champion to a Warpriest is going to go in the Warpriest's favour. Sure you've taken away the feat advantage, but now the Warpriest has 6th level casting to the Paladin's no casting. I dunno, Bonus Feats are gonna be stronger on a full-BAB character, but losing all casting is a lot - especially when comparing to a class with a similar party roll who can swift-action cast. I dunno, I keep going back and forth on this one, maybe I need to see it in action to judge it properly.