IluzryMage |
3 people marked this as a favorite. |
So I'ma be upfront here, I usually don't post because these threads can get icky real quick. That said, this was an important guide to me and I need as much help as I can get to make it better!
Blessed Be The Faithful (reddit post)
Blessed Be The Faithful: Iluzry's Guide To The Cleric
As always, be constructive, not cruel.
Northern Spotted Owl |
So I'ma be upfront here, I usually don't post because these threads can get icky real quick. That said, this was an important guide to me and I need as much help as I can get to make it better!
Blessed Be The Faithful (reddit post)
Blessed Be The Faithful: Iluzry's Guide To The Cleric
As always, be constructive, not cruel.
Your guides are a brilliant addition, in terms of covering up-to-date material, having good breadth, and frankly being fun to read.
Cruel comment folks can f'right off.
Melkiador |
A minor suggestion, it's usually better to use the /view option when giving links to Google docs.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15_OF0nNyOvMjjdcKkpWRHzWKHP4oZWPMcBWpKGT 9e9s/view
I'd rate copycat in trickery higher. Sure, having only one image is limited, but being able to apply them as move actions is pretty amazing. I really love it on most casting-focused clerics, where I can cast as a standard and then protect myself with a move.
Northern Spotted Owl |
It would help to link to this list of deities & domains.
https://aonprd.com/DeitiesByGroup.aspx
Which deities have longbow as their favored weapon? Which ones have the luck domain, and what other domains do they have? Just ctrl-f and you're set.
These are also handy (thanks google)
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Category:Deities_by_domain
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Deities_Quick_Reference
UnArcaneElection |
A minor suggestion, it's usually better to use the /view option when giving links to Google docs.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/15_OF0nNyOvMjjdcKkpWRHzWKHP4oZWPMcBWpKGT 9e9s/view
I'd rate copycat in trickery higher. Sure, having only one image is limited, but being able to apply them as move actions is pretty amazing. I really love it on most casting-focused clerics, where I can cast as a standard and then protect myself with a move.
Definitely want to get to this. But I can't see any functional difference between your link and the original one.
As to the guide itself: I haven't had a chance to look at it yet (other than confirm ability to open the document), but definitely relieved to see 1st Edition stuff. I just got done reviewing a 2nd Edition Magus guide, and while the guide itself was very good, 2nd Edition itself really rubs me the wrong way.
Edit #1: Getting to read the guide just a little bit now.
To answer one of your questions:
{. . .}
Which makes it extra frustrating that I’m not really sure how worship…works? The way cleric is written, there seems to be the implication that you can only worship a single god or concept…but nothing says you can’t be polytheistic. There are no penalties or bars or clarification?
{. . .}
I don't know of a 1st Edition answer for this, but for what it's worth, 2nd Edition has a Syncretism Cleric feat. Now why am I bringing up a no-good dirty 2nd Edition feat in a discussion thread about a noble 1st Edition guide? Well, it gives a lore precedent in favor of multi-worship existing. Now, such a thing could have started with 2nd Edition, but I doubt it, because that would be a big enough lore shift that we should have heard of it.
Edit #2: Got to read a bit more.
Races: Half-Elf: With the Kindred-Raised alternate racial trait, you can get both +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma, but the tradeoffs do hurt (Adaptability = Skill Focus might not be your thing, and if you're not multiclassing you don't have a use for Multitalented, but losing Elven Immunities AND Keen Senses hurts).
Races: Human: With the Dual Talent alternate racial trait, you can get both +2 Wisdom and +2 Charisma, but the tradeoffs do hurt (you are starved for both feats and skill points, and you're trading out the extras of both).
VoodistMonk |
You appear to be missing the Evangelist prestige class... especially when mixed with Divine Paragon... we are talking six boons, man, six! Honestly, it's thee most Cleric of all Clerics, in my opinion.
Divine Paragon 5/Evangelist 10 grants you all three Evangelist boons, and all three of whatever you chose for Divine Paragon [obviously choose between Exalted or Sentinel]. You are a freaking herald of your deity, a conduit of their glory and power.
You also missed VMC Monk. Having both Channel Energy and a Ki Pool open ups things like the tea of transference and Ki Channel... giving you near-endless resource recycling. Especially useful on the Evangelist for infinite Bardic Performance.
UnArcaneElection |
You appear to be missing the Evangelist prestige class... especially when mixed with Divine Paragon... we are talking six boons, man, six! Honestly, it's thee most Cleric of all Clerics, in my opinion.
Divine Paragon 5/Evangelist 10 grants you all three Evangelist boons, and all three of whatever you chose for Divine Paragon [obviously choose between Exalted or Sentinel]. You are a freaking herald of your deity, a conduit of their glory and power.
I don't think you get doubled Boons -- just whichever progression comes first. (Unless you could somehow shoehorn in 2 instances of Deific Obedience.)
You also missed VMC Monk. Having both Channel Energy and a Ki Pool open ups things like the tea of transference and Ki Channel... giving you near-endless resource recycling. Especially useful on the Evangelist for infinite Bardic Performance.
This, on the other hand, sounds like it will work, even if it shouldn't.
VoodistMonk |
VoodistMonk wrote:You appear to be missing the Evangelist prestige class... especially when mixed with Divine Paragon... we are talking six boons, man, six! Honestly, it's thee most Cleric of all Clerics, in my opinion.
Divine Paragon 5/Evangelist 10 grants you all three Evangelist boons, and all three of whatever you chose for Divine Paragon [obviously choose between Exalted or Sentinel]. You are a freaking herald of your deity, a conduit of their glory and power.
I don't think you get doubled Boons -- just whichever progression comes first. (Unless you could somehow shoehorn in 2 instances of Deific Obedience.)
VoodistMonk wrote:You also missed VMC Monk. Having both Channel Energy and a Ki Pool open ups things like the tea of transference and Ki Channel... giving you near-endless resource recycling. Especially useful on the Evangelist for infinite Bardic Performance.This, on the other hand, sounds like it will work, even if it shouldn't.
Divine Paragon gives you Deific Obedience, and allows you to choose which boons you get... "she must choose from the evangelist, exalted, or sentinel boons granted by her deity"...
The Evangelist prestige class gives you all three Evangelist boons, and Aligned Class continues your Divine Paragon progression... assuming you did not choose Evangelist boons with Divine Paragon, you get all six boons.
Divine Paragon 5/Evangelist 10...
Level 5: 1st Exalted/Sentinel boon
Level 8: 1st Evangelist boon
Level 11: 2nd Evangelist boon
Level 12: 2nd Exalted/Sentinel boon
Level 14: 3rd Evangelist boon
Level 15: 3rd Exalted/Sentinel boon
Mage of the Wyrmkin |
Nice guide. :)
I do think it is possible to have a skill monkey cleric with the right archetype (Herald Caller or Cardinal for example), reasonable intelligence and a skilled race. Add in a Sage/Figment familiar for even more monkey power.
I would really love to see a section for the best cleric spells pulled from all the sources. Perhaps limit it to 4/5 or greater spells as the cleric spell list is long.
IluzryMage |
Nice guide. :)
I do think it is possible to have a skill monkey cleric with the right archetype (Herald Caller or Cardinal for example), reasonable intelligence and a skilled race. Add in a Sage/Figment familiar for even more monkey power.
I would really love to see a section for the best cleric spells pulled from all the sources. Perhaps limit it to 4/5 or greater spells as the cleric spell list is long.
I think that is already in the guide. What do you mean from all sources?
Melkiador |
I do think it is possible to have a skill monkey cleric with the right archetype (Herald Caller or Cardinal for example), reasonable intelligence and a skilled race.
Herald Caller is kind of funny about that. Not only does it have 2 more skills than core cleric, but it also doesn’t need the typical summoning skills of linguistics and handle animal, because it can already communicate with any of its summons.
And then there are all the short term skills you could ask your summons to do for you.
VoodistMonk |
Mage of the Wyrmkin wrote:I do think it is possible to have a skill monkey cleric with the right archetype (Herald Caller or Cardinal for example), reasonable intelligence and a skilled race.Herald Caller is kind of funny about that. Not only does it have 2 more skills than core cleric, but it also doesn’t need the typical summoning skills of linguistics and handle animal, because it can already communicate with any of its summons.
And then there are all the short term skills you could ask your summons to do for you.
Trying to make a skill monkey Herald Caller would be another great use of the Evangelist prestige class, as you get Skilled: "Evangelists possess a range of skills across multiple disciplines. At 1st level, an evangelist selects two skills to add to her class skill list. Once selected, these class skills can’t be changed." With proper race and trait selection, you could end up with basically all the skills as class skills you would possibly need or want. And Evangelist also gives you two languages, which is useful for using a wide range of language-depentent skills.
One might guess that I really like combining most Clerics with the Evangelist prestige class, and they would not be wrong.
UnArcaneElection |
{. . .}
Divine Paragon 5/Evangelist 10...Level 5: 1st Exalted/Sentinel boon
Level 8: 1st Evangelist boon
Level 11: 2nd Evangelist boon
Level 12: 2nd Exalted/Sentinel boon
Level 14: 3rd Evangelist boon
Level 15: 3rd Exalted/Sentinel boon
Arguably, one of these already gave your boon from Deific Obedience by the time you get to the other one, and they give these to your early but don't duplicate them, so you would need to somehow get 2 instances of Deific Obedience to make this work.
UnArcaneElection |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Continuing my reading, now in the Domains (A - K) and their Subdomains.
Animal Domain: (and Subdomains): Summon Nature's Ally VIII -- actually, this is made obsolete even before you get it if you can squeeze the feat Spontaneous Nature's Ally into your build.
Artifice Domain: Trap Subdomain: Looks like, um, a trap option.
Chaos Domain (and Subdomains): Typo? -- "Melee touch attack or any rolls you make in the next round are with disadvantage." I think you meant "Melee touch attack, and any rolls your target makes in the next round are with disadvantage."
Charm Domainn (and Subdomains): Dazing Touch -- a No Save Touch Attack to Daze foes. Actually pretty good, especially in combination with a Conductive Reach weapon (or some other way of getting Reach) and Combat Reflexes. Yes, Spell Resistance is a problem if you are up against a lot of foes that have high Spell Resistance, but a lot of foes don't have high Spell Resistance, even at higher levels. You wouldn't want to use it on all your attacks, because you'll run out of uses, but do use it when some enemy tries to do something nasty that provokes an Attack of Opportunity -- if you hit and they don't Spell Resist it, you'll foil their action.
Community Domain: Cooperation Subdomain: Synergistic Touch -- this would be MUCH BETTER on an Inquisitor (who can take this, and -- except for 1 archetype -- doesn't care that this Subdomain's spells are mostly bad).
Community Domain: Family Subdomain: Binding Ties -- this would be MUCH BETTER on a Sacred Servant Paladin who could take this Subdomain and actually be immune to a number of common bad conditions that this ability could transfer. Unfortunately, a Sacred Servant Paladin actually does care that half of this Subdomain's spells of levels 1 - 4 are bad.
Darkness Domain: Night Subdomain: Sleep actually starts out pretty good (at the low levels) -- it just rapidly loses effectiveness as you get to higher levels. So the only REALLY bad Subdomain spell is Nightmare -- so not too shabby a set of Subdomain spells overall.
Darkness & Death Domains: Shadow Subdomain: Whispering Shadows -- the text of this doesn't say that the use has to be hostile, and it doesn't say that a rerolled Save has to be against one of YOUR Necromancy or Illusion spells. So you could use this on your allies when they blow a Miss chance or a Save against a Necromancy or Illusion spell (this is the same quirk as in Dual-Cursed Oracle's Misfortune Revelation). (The 8th level Domain Power and the Subdomain spells are much better in the version of Shadow that comes from Darkness, so get that version if you can.)
Destruction Domain: Rage Subdomain: The Rage spell isn't bad at all, as long as you have the right targets to use it on -- you can use it as a cheapo Rage buff to one of your martials or semi-martials, including a Barbarian, Bloodrager, Viking Fighter, or even yourself who needs to conserve rounds of their real Rage, and it gets bonus points for activating Rage/Bloodrage Powers but not making them Fatigued when it ends; the downside is that since it is a Subdomain spell, you won't be able to cast it repeatedly each day (and remember that you won't be concentrating on it, so the duration is effectively 1 round/level). (Likewise, Bull's Strength starts out good, but just loses effectiveness once you pick up items that give an Enhancement Bonus to Strength.) You could even use this Subdomain to become a sort of Rage Prophet, but without the (well-intentioned but ill-designed) prestige class: Take a dip (normally single level, but see below) in Bloodrager to get Bloodrage to qualify for Mad Magic without needing to pay the Moment of Clarity + Perfect Clarity Rage Power Tax, and then take Mad Magic to be able to keep casting spells while in Rage. Unlike an actual Rage Prophet, your rounds of Rage per day will scale up, although you'll still need to ration them (which the Rage spell is good for helping with). If you really want to double down on Rage, also go VMC Barbarian, which gets you more Rage starting at 3rd level, Uncanny Dodge (or Improved Uncanny Dodge if you got 2 levels of Bloodrager) at 7th level, a Rage Power at 11th level (which is better than the ones you get from the Rage Subdomain, because you can take ones that have a Barbarian level requirement as long as it isn't too high), a (sadly rather small) bit of Damage Reduction at 15th level, and Greater Rage at 19th level. Even if you take the option to dip 2 levels in Bloodrager, you will still eventually get 9th level spells before you get to 20th level (unlike an actual Rage Prophet unless they invest in Favored Prestige Class and 3 instances of Prestigious Spellcaster, which nearly eats up their feat advantage relative to you -- and because the prestige class was written before Bloodrager, they CAN'T get out of paying the Moment of Clarity + Perfect Clarity Rage Power Tax).
Evil Domain (and Subdomains): Align Weapon -- as you point out a few lines down, actually not so bad as long as you don't take a Subdomain that trades out Touch of Evil (same deal as the 8th level Domain Power Scythe of Evil) . . . although at the low levels, Touch of Evil doesn't last long enough.
Glory Domain: Honor Subdomain: Honor Bound -- "The only downside is that its ONLY for" -- something is missing here.
Knowledge Domain (and Subdomains): Lore Keeper -- wait, this one doesn't have limited uses per day? Get a Conductive Reach weapon and go to town! Disconcerting Knowledge feat -- this is probably more for Intrigue campaigns than for combat, especially since to get enough skill ranks, you will probably need to take a Cleric archetype that isn't very good at physical combat.
VoodistMonk |
VoodistMonk wrote:{. . .}
Divine Paragon 5/Evangelist 10...Level 5: 1st Exalted/Sentinel boon
Level 8: 1st Evangelist boon
Level 11: 2nd Evangelist boon
Level 12: 2nd Exalted/Sentinel boon
Level 14: 3rd Evangelist boon
Level 15: 3rd Exalted/Sentinel boonArguably, one of these already gave your boon from Deific Obedience by the time you get to the other one, and they give these to your early but don't duplicate them, so you would need to somehow get 2 instances of Deific Obedience to make this work.
Why would it require two Deific Obedience feats, though?
The Evangelist prestige class just requires you to have taken Deific Obedience at some point before entering... it does not require you to have taken the feat and reserved its use for the prestige class' boons. The requirements are met.
Would you need two Deific Obedience feats if you enter the Evangelist prestige class with enough HD to have already gotten Exalted boons from taking Deific Obedience? You don't have to enter the prestige class as soon as it becomes available, and nothing about the prestige class limits the amount of HD or boons you can possess before entering.
UnArcaneElection |
^It comes from the way Deific Obedience is written:
{. . .}
If you have at least 12 Hit Dice, you also gain the first boon granted by your deity upon undertaking your obedience. If you have at least 16 Hit Dice, you also gain the second boon. If you have 20 Hit Dice or more, you also gain the third boon. Unless a specific duration or number of uses per day is listed, a boon’s effects are constant. If you have levels in the evangelist, exalted, or sentinel prestige classes, you gain access to these boons at lower levels as a benefit of your prestige class. If you have no levels in one of these prestige classes, you gain the boons marked as exalted boons. If you later take levels in sentinel or evangelist, you lose access to the exalted boons and gain access to the new boons appropriate to your class.
{. . .}
I bolded the relevant part -- either prestige class takes away any boons you already got and replaces them with the ones it gives you. Although in the case we were talking about above, it is prestige class vs prestige class, so it isn't clear whether the one that gave the boon first wins, or the one that gives it later wins (which differs in detail from the result I though above, but still results in only one set of boons).
UnArcaneElection |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Continuing my reading, now in the Domains (L - W) and their Subdomains (finishing out this section).
Law Domain (and its Subdomains): Touch of Law -- this takes your Standard Action, so you have to consider that cost versus the benefit.
Law Domain: Devil Subdomain: Hell's Corruption -- if your party needs to land spells that allow a Save, get a Conductive Reach weapon; it does have limited uses per day, so choose your targets wisely.
Law Domain: Legislation Subdomain: Prohibition -- wimpy damage is wimpy. Remove Fear (also for other Domains/Subdomains that have this) is actually not so bad -- if you have Psychic/Occult casters in your party, they will love you for this.
Law Domain: Slavery, Sovereignty, and Tyranny Subdomains: You don't have to say they're good. Just say they'res very skilled in its Evil (okay, Tyranny only so-so). Hey, how does Iomedae end up with Sovereignty anyway? Although maybe this shouldn't be a surprise . . . .
Liberation Domain (and its Subdomains): Both abilities don't get bonuses for your Wisdom. This is normally a bit of a let-down, but on the other hand, it means that if you are of some other class that gets a Domain and is not Wisdom-based (like for instance a Sacred Servant Paladin of Falayna), you still get the full benefit.
Liberation Domain: Self-Realization Subdomain: Paragon Surge -- note that this is a Transmutation spell that you cast on yourself that normally has a duration of 1 minute per level. Note that the 3rd level Bloodline Power of the Shapechanger Sorcerer Bloodline extends the duration of such spells to 10 minutes per level and eventually 1 hour per level. Grab Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger) and Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger) or VMC Sorcerer (SHapechanger) and you can snag almost any Item Creation feat without having to invest in it; or if you temporarily need to be good at really a situational skill, snag Cunning and get yourself the skill at full level. Both ways tax you in feats (including the 1st level Bloodline Power, which is just piddling) and Traits (Acolyte of Apocrypha), but in an Intrigue campaign it might be worth the investment. By the way, if you want to get around the restriction that Paragon Surge can only get you 1 feat each day -- Emergency Attunement is for you.
Luck Domain (and its Subdomains): Bit of Luck -- this takes your Standard Action, so you have to consider that cost versus the benefit.
Luck Domain: Curse Subdomain: Malign Eye -- another way to help you stick on spells that allow Saves, and you don't need a Conductive Reach weapon for this.
Luck Domain: Fate Subdomain: Tugging Strands -- see Darkness & Death Domains: Shadow Subdomain: Whispering Shadows above.
Madness Domain: Truth Subdomain: You'd have to be crazy to take this Subdomain.
Nobility Domain: Naderi variant -- sounds Unsafe at Any Speed . . . sorry, couldn't resist.
Protection Domain: Solitude Subdomain: Typo -- "nothing says you can’t do this to multiple people of they hit you".
Repose Domain: Pharasma version -- doesn't even work against possession by Demons and Evil Wizards. Boo!
Rune Domain (and Subdomains): Spell Rune -- since the spell you attach is one you cast, it has to be one you prepared (or somehow cast spontaneously). Not sure about casting from Scrolls, Staves, and Wands.
Strength Domain: Self-Realization Subdomain: See Liberation Domain: Self-Realization Subdomain above. But the version from the Liberation Domain is much better.
Water Domain: Flotsam Subdomain: Sift -- you need a substantial amount of water to do this. You don't have to be in a desert or even a semi-arid region to make this ability mostly unusable.
UnArcaneElection |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Continuing, now with Variant CHanneling (since Domains currently don't have any X - Z . . . although I have a bit of trouble coming up with what those would be -- Yeti, maybe? -- although that sounds more like a hypothetical Subdomain anyway).
Variant Channeling: Typo? -- "If you make your will save you are unaffected (but the damage is not reduced)" -- I think that's supposed to be "If targets make their will saves they are unaffected (but the damage is not reduced)".
Bravery/Valor Channeling: Harm (standard Channeling) -- I'd actually call that a solid Green (3/5), since having the options of buffing your allies and burning the (un)life out of Undead is not too shabby.
Cleric Spells & Spellcasting -- I've read those guides -- good choices to link to.
Going to have to be a short night tonight, so Archetypes will be next.
UnArcaneElection |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Under Sun variant channeling, did you mean “mild” defenses?
I took this text to mean "mid" as in middle-of-the-road.
Continuing with the guide, now on Archetypes.
Archetypes: Blossoming Light: The thing to do here, since you get a full 2 sets of Domain Powers but no Domain Spells, is to choose Domains or Subdomains that have very good Domain Powers even if they have lousy spells (further up in the guide, several examples came up).
Archetypes: Separatist: The delayed progression of your separatist Domain/Subdomain only applies to its Domain Powers, not the spells. So if you want to snag the Magic or Protection Domain or one of their Subdomains to get Antimagic Field at the same time as a Wizard instead of 4 levels later, go right ahead.
Archetypes: Evangelist: What you lose -- also note that you lose some of your Channeling dice (eventually 3d6), although fortunately this does not reduce Channeling DC.
Archetypes that trade out Channeling: You can take any archetype that doesn't specialize in Channeling and dump Charisma and let Channeling be vestigial, but wouldn't you rather get something for what you traded out? Or maybe you're going to go into a prestige class that doesn't progress channeling, but you'd like to get something useful out of the first few levels that will continue to be useful instead of becoming irrelevant like a vestigial Channeling ability.
Archetypes to add: Divine Strategist: (What You Gain: a quickly scaling bonus to Initiative; a slowly scaling bonus to the Caster Level and Concentration checks of allied divine casters (also works at half strength for allied arcane or occult casters or even allies activating spells from magic items); and at 8th level add your Intelligence bonus to Attacks of Opportunity and Flanking. The latter is mediocre taken by itself, but you could make a practical build to make it good, especially if you're adding some Intelligence to get some more skill ranks.) (What You Lose: 1 of your 2 Domains = ouch; Channel energy.) I would rate this archetype 3/5 (Green) normally, but if you are in a party with other spellcasters, especially other divine casters, it rapidly grows in power. In an all-Cleric (or Cleric + Druid and/or Oracle) party, it would be bonkers. This one is fine for dumping Charisma, but not so great for a dip, since the replacement abilities (except for the last one) scale by level.
Archetypes to add: Foundation of Faith: (What You Gain: Your Constitution bonus to your CMD and your defense against being Intimidated; Move-Action-activated Constitution bonus to Concentration checks; the ability (boosted by your Constitution bonus) to confer Fast Healing to yourself or to allies -- this last one is the only one that scales by level.) (What you lose: Channel Energy.) This one is good for not only dumping Charisma, but also for using Cleric as your spellcasting entry to a prestige class, because only the last one of the replacement abilities scales by level, and even if it isn't leveled up, just having it at all will help with stabilizing KO-d allies that you can't get to, stopping minor Bleed, etc. (although it does have limited uses per day, so use wisely.) This is also the better archetype for Dwarves to take, even though the crafting-themed but poorly-implemented Forgemaster is the one listed as their archetype. I would rate this one 4/5 (Blue) for most people, but 5/5 (Purple) for Dwarves.
Multiclassing, etc. will have to be in a future post.
UnArcaneElection |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On to some stuff that comes after archetypes, but first: a word about a missed opportunity -- they should have carried Cleric over to Starfinder. Then we could have had a Televangelist archetype. Maybe they're saving it up for Pathfinder Modern? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
Multiclassing: Fighter: Getting armor and weapon proficiencies is nice -- just be sure to read the fine print on your Cleric archetype in case it actually restricts you from certain things rather than just passively taking them away.
Multiclassing: Add Bloodrager: See Destruction Domain, above. But it does give you armor and weapon proficiencies, and qualifies you for the Mad Magic feat that lets you cast non-Bloodrager spells while in (Blood)Rage, so its applicability extends beyond that set of very specific builds. Green (3/5) for Warrior Clerics generally, but Blue (4/5) for a very specific set of builds.
Variant Multiclassing: VMC Wizard: School Picks -- add Evocation (Admixture) -- if you want to blast, this lets you get around Resistances/Immunities without having to spend multiple feats on Elemental Spell.
Variant Multiclassing: VMC Sorcerer: Keep in mind that acquisition of Bloodline Powers is delayed by up to 6 levels, as opposed to 2 levels for the Eldritch Heritage feat chain. Better invest in a Robe of Arcane Heritage. On the plus side, VMC Sorcerer DOESN'T require Skill Focus, and at 11th level, it actually gives you a feat from your Bloodline's list; a subset of these might be feats you can actually use (and in a few cases, you might even have an easier time qualifying than an actual Sorcerer).
Variant Multiclassing: Add VMC Barbarian: See Destruction Domain, above. Red (1/5) for most Clerics, but Blue (4/5) for a small set of very specific builds.
Prestige Classes: Add Hinterlander (Erastil, -1 spellcasting progression): This looks like it was meant to progress Ranger, but it will turbocharge Cleric. It looks like it got a stealth nerf to BAB (used to be Full; is now 3/4), but even so, it's still good. For an example, see this Human Ranger 2/Cleric (Foundation of Faith, Separatist) of Erastil 3/Hinterlander x build (except replace the 9th level floating feat with Clustered Shots, and all level-up ability score increases go to Wisdom, and level 20 BAB is 15 instead of 18). Before the nerf, this prestige class was brokenly overpowered; now it's merely awesome (purple, 5/5), and I haven't even explored single-classing Cleric into Hinterlander (stealth buff -- used to required Favored Enemy class feature, but now it doesn't). (Hmm -- I wonder if my linked post was responsible for stealth errata?)
UnArcaneElection |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Okay, back from Thanksgiving dinner. Continuing now with Feats.
General Feats: War Blessing: Due to variation between Blessings, this is a mixed bag, and it almost deserves its own section or at least a link to a Warpriest guide, but as a sneak preview, if you are in underwater combat, on your successful Touch Attack, the Void Minor Blessing will completely hose a target that has to hold their breath, even if they pass their Fortitude Save (which only gets them off the hook from the Staggered condition). This is also true to a much lesser extent if you can arrange for a gas attack to which you are immune.
General Feats: Magic Trick: If you go VMC Wizard, at 11th level you get an arcane Cantrip, of which Mage Hand and Prestidigitation are usable with Magic Trick, and of which the Magic Trick options of Mage Hand are actually pretty good. The bad news is that you will be awfully short on feats. On the other hand, if instead of going VMC Wizard, you actually dipped Wizard, like for instance to become a Mystic Theurge, then you would be doing not too shabby on feats . . . .
General Feats: Flickering Step: One technical problem you will have with the feat is that you need at least 9 ranks of Knowledge (Planes), and skill ranks are hard for most Clerics to get. This doesn't mean anything wrong with the feat, just that it will be hard for you to afford it in your build.
General Feats: Knowledgeable Spellcaster: This one has a problem with the feat itself -- even if you somehow get enough ranks in each skill, it specifically says you have to take this feat once for each Knowledge skill you want to use it with!
General Feats: Add Cunning: More skill points = Good. Normally Green (3/5), but becomes Blue (4/5) if you are investing in feats or prestige classes that require skill ranks.
General Feats: Add Toughness: More hit points = Good, and the first 3 are front-loaded. Green (3/5).
General Feats: Add Fast Learner: If you are Human with Intelligence at least 13, you can take this to get both a skill point and a hit point for each level as your Favored Class Bonus, and then you can stack Cunning and/or Toughness on top of it. Green (3/5) if you aren't needing to cast spells on Outsiders.
Combat Feats: Divine Fighting Techique: Almost deserves a section of its own, but as a sneak preview, Desna's Shooting Star (especially if combined with the Startoss Style feat chain) is just brokenly overpowered, and Torag's Patient Strokes substitutes for Combat Reflexes if you are wielding a Warhammer, and eventually lets you use the Vital Strike feat chain on Attacks of Opportunity.
Combat Feats: Ironbound Master: This keys of your Cleric level and not anything else, so you had better be single-class or almost single-class.
Combat Feats: Channel Smite/Guided Hand: Channel Smite (see below) is just a feat tax for Guided Hand.
Combat Feats: Combat Stamina: Almost deserves a whole guide of its own.
Melee Combat Feats: Power Attack and Piranha Attack: Although the scaling is nice, as a 3/4 BAB character you do not get the full benefit of these feats, and are less able to afford the loss of accuracy than a full BAB character. They become better if you are two-handing your weapon, in which case you can negate the penalty on your first attack with Furious Focus. Now if only you could somehow get Blade Tutor's Spirit on your spell list . . . only way I can think of is be a Samsaran with Mystic Past Life to snag it from the Paladin or Antipaladin list.
Melee Combat Feats: Combat Reflexes: If your Dexterity isn't good enough for this, see Torag's Patient Strokes under Divine Fighting Technique above.
Ranged Combat Feats: Deadly Aim: See Power Attack and Piranha Attack above.
Metamagic Discount Feats: Sacred Geometry: Skill points are hard to come by for a Cleric, and making this feat good requires considerable investment in Knowledge (Engineering). Since it also requires Intelligence 13, if you are going to invest in it, you might as well go to Intelligence 14 to get another skill point per level. Also wanted to post the link to the Sacred Geometry Calculator in this thread.
Metamagic Rider Effect Feats: Dazing Spell: Actually, if your targets save, they are not Dazed, so it's only Green to Blue (3.5/5).
Metamagic Rider Effect Feats: Cherry Blossom Spell: This should work like Dazing Spell above, but they messed up the text so that the only way that targets can save against the rider effect is if the spell is No Save.
Metamagic Rider Effect Feats: Add Authoritative Spell (+2): This should work like Dazing Spell above, but they messed up in the opposite way from Cherry Blossom Spell, so that targets can't save against the rider effect if the spell is No Save.
Metamagic Rider Effect Feats: Add Tumultous Spell (+1): This should work like Dazing Spell above, but instead works like Authoritative Spell above, except that it has added text for spells that require an attack roll. Good for breaking up enemy formations, even if some of the targets save.
Metamagic Rider Effect Feats: Add Rime Spell (+1): This one does not seem to have had any attempt made to allow a Save at all -- if targets are damaged at all by the spell (even if they Save), they are Entangled.
Metamagic Rider Effect Feats: Add Apocalyptic Spell (+1): This one has a valid reason for not allowing a Save for the targets, because it is affecting the ground and space around them instead of directly affecting them. Makes Difficult Terrain, and even messes up space away from the ground (although apparently not underground, but what do you want for a Metamagic Feat whose level cost is only +1?).
Metamagic Rider Effect Feats: Add Trick Spell (+1, Calistria): Very thematic for the most devout Calistrians -- apply a Dirty Trick (amplified by any Dirty Trick feats you have) to a target that fails its Save against a single-target Enchantment spell.
Metamagic Rider Effect Feats: Add Brackish Spell (+0): This has a protective rider effect on you. The duration is very short, but on the other hand, it doesn't have a spell level cost.
Metamagic Spell Modifier and Rider Effect Feat Chain: Add Tenebrous Spell (Spell Modifier, +1 on most spells, +0 on Darkness, Shadow, or Illusion (Shadow) spells) --> Umbral Spell (Rider Effect, +2) --> Shadow Grasp (Rider Effect, +1) -- Entangle targets; unlike Rime Spell, they get a Save, but Shadow Grasp doesn't care whether they take damage from the spell. Note that you can't actually use Umbral Spell and Shadow Grasp on the same spell unless it both affects specific targets and an area; more likely, you'll use an Umbral Spell (which may be also Tenebrous, depending upon prevailing conditions) and a Tenebrous Shadow Grasp spell for a one-two punch. This feat chain eats an awful lot of feats, but if you're into darkness, this is thematic for you.
Metamagic Spell Modifer Feats: Heighten Spell: Except in a few odd cases (like interaction with Magic Trick), this is really a Defense Breaker.
Metamagic Spell Defense Breaker Feats: Persistent Spell: Typo -- "If your succeed your save, roll again to see if you fail!" should be "If targets succeed in their Save, roll again to see if they fail!".
Metamagic Spell Defense Breaker Feats: Piercing Spell: An alternative is the general feat Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration -- these do not increase spell level (or casting time, if for some reason you are casting a spell spontaneously). But if you really need to break through spell resistance, they stack with Piercing Spell and (when applicable) with the Human Favored Class Bonus.
Channel Energy Modifier Feats: Ability Focus -- since it says (Monster), I don't know if it is supposed to work with Clerics, but if it is, I wonder if it works with Domain Powers that work as special attacks?
Channel Energy Modifier Feats: Channel Ray: Seems like a semi-waste to convert your area Channel Energy to a single target blast with both a Save and a chance to miss, but it will eventually get you really long range.
Channel Energy Modifier Feats: Alignment Channel: The way this (and the similar Elemental Channel) are written is really weird -- each option of Alignment Channel gives you the choice of healing or harming one alignment, instead of healing one alignment or harming the opposite alignment. In most cases, you are never going to use one of these choices. Now, regular Channel Energy will heal most Outsiders, so if you Channel Positive Energy, this will be mostly moot, and regular Channel Negative Energy will hurt most Outsiders (even most Evil Outsiders), so again this will be mostly moot, but it's still weird -- Good Clerics will end up choosing Alignment Channel (Evil) to hurt Evil Outsiders, and Evil Clerics will end up choosing Alignment Channel (Evil) to heal Evil Outsiders, and almost nobody other than a subset of Neutral Clerics will have a use for Alignment Channel (Good).
Channel Energy Modifier Feats: Channel Smite: Red (1/5) -- the only reason you would want this feat that puts your Channel Energy on 1 target and wastes it if you miss (and even if you hit, they still get to Save) is as the feat tax for Guided Hand.
Channel Energy Modifier Feats: Add Reviving Channel: Sort of like Channeled Revival, but works on an ally who is KO'd but not dead, and first gets them up to 0 hit points before applying the Channel Energy healing, and it only uses 1 Channel Energy charge. It doesn't say anything about Channeling Positive Energy, so if you Channel Negative Energy and have a KO'd ally who has Negative Energy Affinity but is not destroyed at 0 hit points, it should work for them.
Channel Energy Rider Effect Feats: Channel Discord, Hellish Shackles, and Clarifying Channel: I would downrate all of these for being only once per day no matter how many uses of Channel Energy you have available. Fateful Channel, Beacon of Hope, and Shatter Resolve don't have that problem.
Channel Energy Alternate Use Feats: Channel Hate: This is known to work even in Earth's planetary Antimagic Field.
Channel Energy Alternate Use Feats: Channeled Revival: Unlike Breath of Life without Reach Spell, this works at the range of your Channel Energy.
Healing (actually Achievement) Feats: Healer's Touch: This is only going to work if you start out as a healbot, because when you damage other creatures, you reduce your progress towards getting this feat at double speed.
Healing (actually Achievement) Feats: Talmandor's Lifting: Getting this one is going to hurt -- you have to survive 10d6 falling damage 3 times.
Healing Feats: Glorious Heat: Pretty weak -- at 20th level, you will heal your designated ally only 10 points and give them a 1 round Bless restricted to attack rolls. Red (1/5).
Next up: Traits and Equipment.
Mightypion |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you are dipping into bloodrager, consider Steelblood Archetype.
It is stronger at lower levels then normal bloodrager, because the bad parts of the archetype (where it trades uncanny dodge for terribad blood deflection) come later.
You get heavy armor proficiency (same as for dipping in fighter), you get a bloodline, bloodrage, +1 to CMD (indomitable stance), +1 to some CMDs and +1 to attack and damage against charging enemies. Note, they dont have to charge you in particular.
Is this worth not having a bonus feat? You decide.
Other dip options:
Mutagenic mauler for a STR based cleric (most are). Full Bab, improved unarmed strike for easier access to Crane style, good fort and reflex saves semi acting like 2 defensive feats on a dip.
You also get mutagen, and a cleric with ambitions to hitting things is going to appreciate +4 STR, +2 AC and wont care about -2int for 10 minutes a day.
Spiritualist:
Dip once, never manifest your phantom, grab shield from its spell list. Enjoy a massive will save vs anything mind affecting (+6, +8 if dedication phantom is chosen), a get out of jail card if you somehow managed to fail a will save anyway, 2 skill foci and maybe free iron will. You could plausibly plot the 2 skill foci in a way that snags you a usefull eldritch heritage, but I probably wouldnt bother. Spiritualists have pretty good class skills too, but you are cleric so meh.
UnArcaneElection |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Before I continue with further reading, here's a further note about Humans, the Eldritch Heritage feat chain, and skills (it all ties together): If you look up Humans on Archive of Nethys (www.d20pfsrd.com doesn't have this), and then search for Powerful Presence, you will see that you can trade out the Human Bonus Feat to have your Charisma score considered as 2 points higher for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites, AND get Persuasive as a bonus feat. If you are going to be a face Cleric, this is a good way to go, and being treated as having Charisma 2 higher than for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites means you need Charisma only 11 instead of 13 to get Eldritch Heritage, and you need Charisma only 13 instead of 15 to get Improved Eldritch Heritage, and you need Charisma only 15 instead of 17 to get Greater Eldritch Heritage. If you also bump your Intelligence up to 14 and take Cunning, and DON'T trade out the Human Skilled trait, you could max Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion), Perception, and Sense Motive even if you don't get to add skill ranks with a magic item. If you don't use the Human Favored Class Bonus (campaign with not many Outsiders), then you could also max Disguise or Spellcraft, or leave a skill columns for 1- and 2- pointers (either way, you might want to get Fast Learner to that you get both a hit point and a skill point per level in exchange for forgoing the Human Favored Class Bonus). Of course, if you are a Herald Caller, this gets even better, and you have more wiggle room.
UnArcaneElection |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Continuing with Traits and Equipment, but first, another feat section.
Add Item Creation Feats: Brew Potion: More expensive than scribing Scrolls, but on the other hand, the people you hand Potions to can use these themselves without needing a Use Magic Device roll. Potions like Delay Poison and Lesser Restoration could be lifesavers, as long as the user has a chance to withdraw momentarily to use them without getting smacked.
Add Item Creation Feats: Craft Magic Arms and Armor: How much you're going to need this varies -- most parties will probably use it a few times and be done, but if you need to make special ammunition or you need to outfit an army, this might be worth taking.
Add Item Creation Feats: Craft Wondrous Item: This lets you make the greatest number of useful items, including some consumables. For examples, see Candle of Invocation and Pearls of Power, below.
Add Item Creation Feats: Craft Wand: For spells that you are going to need frequently but that you don't need the caster level of casting them yourself. The combination of frequent use and lower per-charge cost makes up for the up-front cost relative to Potions or Scrolls. You'll be burning through a LOT of Cure Light Wounds (and/or Inflict Light Wounds if some of your allies have Negative Energy Affinity), and Lesser Restoration is frequently needed too; in certain campaigns, you might need Delay Poison enough to justify a Wand of this.
Add Item Creation Feats: Scribe Scroll: Since you have access to your entire spell list apart from spells you specifically aren't allowed to cast (usually because of alignment conflict), you can use this to build up a library of Scrolls for contingencies. This is especially good on an Ecclisitheurge Cleric, even though you also have Bonded Holy Symbol to help with contingencies -- you'll be better at this than any Wizard who isn't a Spell Sage. Of course, if you have somebody in your party who already has Scribe Scroll (for instance, a Wizard), you can use their Scribe Scroll instead.
Traits: Finding Your Kin (actually Finding Haleem: This is the Human Fast Learner feat (see above), except that you don't have to be Human. But it is also actually pre-Pathfinder (from the Legacy of Fire Adventure Path).
Traits: Cleansing Light: That isn't going to be much additional Channel damage to Undead -- if you deal 6d6 normally, this enables you to deal on the average 1 more point of damage, assuming you aren't fighting negatively loaded dice. Red (1/5), even if you are a Channel Monster -- save your Trait space for something that provides more help.
Traits: Wisdom in the Flesh: "Select any Strength-, Constitution-, or Dexterity-based skill", so you have quite a number of good choices. Acrobatics is indeed good (especially if you are using Torag's Divine Fighting Style and/or Guided Hand or Deadeye's Blessing to make up for bad Dexterity). Escape Artist is a decent pick if you are compensating for bad Strength. Fly is a decent pick if you are doing that a lot. Stealth is a decent pick if you need to do that a lot, or even just a moderate amount. Swim is a potentially life-saving pick if you are in a water (especially underwater) campaign, like Skull and Shackles (or especially Ruins of Azlant).
Equipment: Magic Weapon: Guided Weapon Enhancement: Note that this is pre-Pathfinder.
Equipment: Magic Weapon: Wizard's Hook: Of course, you have to lose a hand first . . . .
Equipment: Magic Weapon: Channeler's Aspergillum: Sounds nice until you see Price 36,305 gp.
Equipment: Domain Items: Icon of Aspects: . . . And it is only moderately expensive, and doesn't use an item slot!
Equipment: Domain Items (actually Magic Armor): The Forbidden Name: This is Studded Leather Armor (Light) -- if you can craft magic armor yourself, it would be worth seeing if you can make a Medium Armor version of it (or even Heavy Armor if you're proficient with that).
Equipment: Domain Items: Pyxes of Redirected Focus: Like Icon of Aspects, it doesn't use an item slot, so you can actually use both!
Equipment: Casting Items: Candle of Invocation: Eventually you want to create these yourself, if you can -- that gets the expense down to 4,200 gp. Fortunately, Create Wondrous Item is the most generally applicable Item Creation Feat, and fortunately, if you can't cast Gate, that just bumps up the crafting DC by 5.
Equipment: Casting Items: Pearls of Power: These are especially necessary if you rely on good Domain spells, since you only get 1 Domain slot per spell level no matter how many Domains you have.
Equipment: Casting Items: Add Varisian Idol (Avidais): If you need to remove some really nasty condition, 75 gp for +2 to your Dispel Check is a steal.
Equipment: Casting Items: Add Varisian Idol (Carnasia): If you can't get in Charm range of a target without threatening it, this fixes the problem of their being threatened giving them +5 to the Save.
Equipment: Summoning Items: Visage of the Bound: I don't see any restriction on using your bound Outsider's teleportation ability, just not its summoning abilities, so if your Outsider could teleport, now you can do it.
Equipment: Channel Energy Items: Gloves, Ghostvision: Warning: This makes you blind to creatures that aren't Undead! Orange (2/5) -- you can build to work around this problem, but it will take a LOT of investment.
Equipment: Channel Energy Items: Daylight Diadem: This is awfully expensive for what it does and considering how much of a pain it is to recharge if you are underground (you are going to have to cast Skyshroud every morning, assuming you can even figure out when morning is).
And . . . Finished! (Unless I get both inspiration and time to come up with some complete builds to offer up.)