What do you want from a Lost Omens: Arcadia?

[PossibleCabbage]

Like I have a hard time thinking that Nahuatl speaking societies did not have notions of "things that are good to do" and "things that are bad to do" since they were, after all, a society. Societies are interested in things like "do not poop in the water supply" and "do not spread disease" and "avoiding desperately hungry people using violence".

Like the way Gods work in Golarion doesn't really map neatly on a lot of real cultures. Like they can't really have Vudra work a la "everything is Brahman" because they want Sarenrae, Asmodeus, Pharasma, etc. to matter everywhere.

But insofar we ensure "these are the outer planes, here's what lives there" then the people of Arcadia are going to be smart enough to notice things like "beings from the Outer Rifts are not trustworthy."

[keftiu]

I trust the company that made the 2e Mwangi Expanse and Tian Xia books to treat Arcadia with similar levels of respect.

I also understand that Pathfinder 2e is largely a game about tactical combat to the death on a battle map, and so the continent needs bad guys to beat up on. Everything we've heard suggests modern Razatlan is at least a decent place to live, and we've seen Xopatl to be quite lovely... but we also know the Halana Theocracy is in thrall to a bunch of servants of evil sky gods, and that Ohachtsik has empowered no less than five undead Armies of Fire to rampage across the land.

If El Santo can get into brawls with terrifying mummies, then I think Arcadia can be permitted some gnarly cultist types without being read as a condemnation of Mexica religious practices. Likewise, I think there's a lot of room for a more-sympathetic fantasy take on something like the Andean 'mummies,' who could be something like guardian spirits or respected ancestors - nuance, as always, is key.

[Perpdepog]

keftiu wrote:

Likewise, I think there's a lot of room for a more-sympathetic fantasy take on something like the Andean 'mummies,' who could be something like guardian spirits or respected ancestors - nuance, as always, is key.

Yeah. We're already seeing some undead trend in this direction, in fact. Book of the Dead gave us both the Iruxi Ossature, which is very clearly coded as a beneficial tutelary spirit. There's also the Iroran Mummy, which is treated as the result of enlightenment rather than a product of evil necromancy. I guess they're also tutelary spirits, now I think on it, just of temples rather than home communities.

[Eeveegirl1206]

keftiu wrote:

I trust the company that made the 2e Mwangi Expanse and Tian Xia books to treat Arcadia with similar levels of respect.

I also understand that Pathfinder 2e is largely a game about tactical combat to the death on a battle map, and so the continent needs bad guys to beat up on. Everything we've heard suggests modern Razatlan is at least a decent place to live, and we've seen Xopatl to be quite lovely... but we also know the Halana Theocracy is in thrall to a bunch of servants of evil sky gods, and that Ohachtsik has empowered no less than five undead Armies of Fire to rampage across the land.

If El Santo can get into brawls with terrifying mummies, then I think Arcadia can be permitted some gnarly cultist types without being read as a condemnation of Mexica religious practices. Likewise, I think there's a lot of room for a more-sympathetic fantasy take on something like the Andean 'mummies,' who could be something like guardian spirits or respected ancestors - nuance, as always, is key.

There is also some uncomfortable subtext in that the trope of the “bloodthirsty hedonistic cult” is itself based on colonialist imaginations of other culture’s spiritual practices including Judaism with blood libel

Here’s a post on ask historians about it https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/PATRNdptOS

Jt being applied to anything associated with Mesoamerica has a lot of nasty baggage that I don’t think Laizo can handle.

This has real life effects in the USA Indigenous people where not allowed to practice their religions until the eighties on the basis of it being heathan superstitious.

You can have Villains that are not blood cults

[ornathopter]

I think everyone is on the same page about not wanting to perpetuate stereotypes, but this is the 'what do you want to see in Lost Omens Arcadia' thread, not 'let's talk about all the potential problems in a completely hypothetical book' thread.

[keftiu]

War of Immortals has a few exciting gems of Arcadian excitement! Sealed-away demigods recently freed in the fey-touched Primal League, signs of a new Army of Fire, a gold rush for divine metals, and the awakening of several mysterious colossi... all of it begging for heroes in a way that really excites me.

[Brinebeast]

Agreed! All the developments in Arcadia are super exciting!!! I can't help but feel that an Arcadia book is on the 2-3 year horizon.

[Arkat]

Now that the Godsrain has fallen, I guess I'd like to know what its effects are on the Kumaru tree and the Veins of Creation?

[keftiu]

Arkat wrote:

Now that the Godsrain has fallen, I guess I'd like to know what its effects are on the Kumaru tree and the Veins of Creation?

Some godsblood watering the tree's roots - and potentially bringing hero-gods back to Xopatl - would be such a delight. I'd take that AP over almost any other.

[Arkat]

keftiu wrote:

Arkat wrote:

Now that the Godsrain has fallen, I guess I'd like to know what its effects are on the Kumaru tree and the Veins of Creation?

Some godsblood watering the tree's roots - and potentially bringing hero-gods back to Xopatl - would be such a delight.

Indeed. A bit of my 19th level Sorc's soul was placed inside the Kumaru tree in the Tyrant's Grasp AP.

Wondering if he'll just be "Mythic" when his soul finally reforms completely and his new body also develops (could take 19 years - 1 year for each level maybe?) or maybe something more. Godling would be cool, but maybe something more player-character friendly would be better.

[keftiu]

Divine Mysteries has a lovely little section on the Coatl Tribunal, the three coatl divinities worshiped in Arcadia, in which it talks about how they're much 'closer' to the mortal world (and more willing to appear to mortals) than most gods. Between the deep dive on Cihua, Pahti, and Tolte Coatl and the new profile of Arcadian gun-god Kaldermash, we're eating good here!

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Don't forget Izuyaku, deity of balance, health and spa days! ;)

[Zoken44]

I just hope that if they do an Arcadia book, they get writers and cultural experts from various indigenous north and south American nations. A world imagined where their ancestors didn't face genocide and colognization.

[keftiu]

Zoken44 wrote:

I just hope that if they do an Arcadia book, they get writers and cultural experts from various indigenous north and south American nations. A world imagined where their ancestors didn't face genocide and colognization.

Between Paizo's existing Latinx and Indigenous writing talent and how both the Mwangi and Tian Xia books boasted massive writer lists from diverse, relevant backgrounds, I'm not worried about this at all.

[keftiu]

I do wish we knew who the other three nations of the Segada Protocol were. It's wild that the only one we know is Degasi, and all we really have on them is a single city. They seem to be a political hub distinct from the Fallen Razatlan 'core' of the continent, and that interests me a great deal.

[zimmerwald1915]

keftiu wrote:

I do wish we knew who the other three nations of the Segada Protocol were. It's wild that the only one we know is Degasi, and all we really have on them is a single city. They seem to be a political hub distinct from the Fallen Razatlan 'core' of the continent, and that interests me a great deal.

Arcadia needs a political map, yes. At the very least the half of it north of the Nolands and Old Razatlan (which are mapped).

[keftiu]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

keftiu wrote:

I do wish we knew who the other three nations of the Segada Protocol were. It's wild that the only one we know is Degasi, and all we really have on them is a single city. They seem to be a political hub distinct from the Fallen Razatlan 'core' of the continent, and that interests me a great deal.

Arcadia needs a political map, yes. At the very least the half of it north of the Nolands and Old Razatlan (which are mapped).

Do we have a map of Fallen Razatlan beyond just Xopatl?

[keftiu]

keftiu wrote:

There’s also clearly not a monopoly on Arcadian trade to be had, given that there’s an entire trade triangle in Travel Guide linking Senghor, some colonies in Azlant, and Arcadia.

The Shades of Blood Player's Guide has given us an interesting wrinkle: it says that Talmandor's Bounty, in Azlant, is a vital link between Andoran and its colony on Arcadia's Grinding Coast, a trade route it dubs the Arcadian Wake - but says that the route "doesn't get significant traffic due to trade restrictions between the two continents" (presumably referring to the Segada Protocol). It does then say that ships traveling between those two continents "regularly" visit Talmandor's Bounty, though!

This is in contrast to the Arcadian Triangle, which Lost Omens: Travel Guide says "Arcadian and Avistani traders frequently make treks to and from the Shattered Continent without completely crossing the Arcadian Ocean," with that route linking Segada and Senghor via colonies in Azlant.

While this is never quite spelled out, I think we can take away two really interesting ideas! The first is that trade with Senghor isn't subject to the same political controls as Avistani-Arcadian trade (likely owing to ethnic Caldaru existing on both ends of that trip), while the second is that colonies in Azlant might be a legal grey area that offers a workaround for restrictions aimed at Avistan. There's likely a lot of money to be made with independence for places like Talmandor's Bounty!

[zimmerwald1915]

keftiu wrote:

Talmandor's Bounty, in Azlant

Andoran['s]. . . colony on Arcadia's Grinding Coast

Have either of these things gotten placed on a map?

[keftiu]

zimmerwald1915 wrote:

keftiu wrote:

Talmandor's Bounty, in Azlant

Andoran['s]. . . colony on Arcadia's Grinding Coast

Have either of these things gotten placed on a map?

Talmandor's might've gotten placed on a map in Ruins of Azlant, but there's no map in the Shades of Blood Player's Gudie.

I don't know if we've ever seen Elesomare on a map.

[zimmerwald1915]

keftiu wrote:

Talmandor's might've gotten placed on a map in Ruins of Azlant

It did not, at least, not one small-scale enough to place it anywhere in particular on the world map.

[The Raven Black]

Ancorato is stated in the Pathfinderwiki to be approximately 300 miles south of the Sun Temple Colony.

Not sure if it helps.

[zimmerwald1915]

The Raven Black wrote:

Ancorato is stated in the Pathfinderwiki to be approximately 300 miles south of the Sun Temple Colony.

Not sure if it helps.

It doesn't, we don't know where the Sun Temple Colony was either. At most it tells us that Ancorato is not in the northernmost tier of islands.

[Eeveegirl1206]

Arcadia isn’t just South America and Mesoamerica it also includes what is currently the USA and Canada.

AKA tribes like the Ojibwe, Cree, Zuni, Huron, Inuit.

Warhammer had mesoamerican themed lizardpeople but the part of their world that is anoglous to USA/Canada was uninhabited until the dark elves went to Canada.

Will they have horses in Arcadia? Considering raccoons and skunks exist in the Inner Sea.

I’d love to have a god based on or even just straight up have Tezcatlipoca in Golarion.

Despite Tezcatlipoca‘a profilo seeming like it would be evil he was one of the most popular gods in Nahua and a Patreon of enslaved persons

[keftiu]

Eeveegirl1206 wrote:

Arcadia isn’t just South America and Mesoamerica it also includes what is currently the USA and Canada.

AKA tribes like the Ojibwe, Cree, Zuni, Huron, Inuit.

The Mahwek near Port Valen and the nation of Degasi have both shown off more North American Native inspirations, which I appreciate!

[The Raven Black]

Thing is we also have North American Native inspirations in the Inner Sea region.

Direct geographical analogy does not work.

[BotBrain]

Finally got my hands on war of immortals and I want to know more about these giants roaming around. I do detect a hint of inspiration from shadow of the collosus and I simply must know more.